Johns Workbench, a place to start.

[Turin60]

I'm just starting my Irish railway modelling journey so I anticipate a good few mistakes so please bear with me. How did I end up here, well not too many miles from me lives a certain Andy Cundick whose exploits with 4mm scale Irish modelling are well known here, given such influence I was bound to want to dip a toe in sooner or later.

The other influence was from when I was growing up in the 1960,s, I had a copy of "The Observers Book of Railway Locomotives" and in there were some diesel locomotives which appeared to be painted SILVER! What a mad idea, only to be outdone in the 1980's by Network South East painting locomotives red WHITE & blue...now that was mad!. Anyway now I've got a replacement Observers book and it seems that edition was the first to feature the railways of the Irish republic.

Now being English (albeit with Irish ancestry) and awkward my project is going to be built to 21mm gauge, now I must admit I don't mind building pointwork which is going to be done with code 70 rail and PCB sleepers, there should be appended to this message a photograph of my point plan set up with sleepers stuck in place ready to go!  In more recent times I seem to have acquired a reputation for building layouts which don't feature many (or any) points, well my plan is to use two points so the layout might be classes as small as opposed to Micro and will be more charicature rather than prototype. Bear with me it might not be as bad as you fear.

So I've got the cunning plan and rail and hope to make some progress over the forthcoming festive season, so best wishes to you all. Now let's see about inserting that photograph.

John Bruce.

[Patrick Davey]

Good luck with the journey John!

[Mol_PMB]

Welcome! 

I'm a few months ahead of you with building a 2-point layout as a first step in 21mm gauge, so it's great to see someone else following the same path.

Here's my journey so far:

I look forward to seeing your progress. Feel free to ask if you have any questions on regauging stock etc. 

Have you chosen which wheel/rail standards you're using? Some people use P4-based dimensions but others (myself included) use EM flangeways and wheel profiles.

As for silver locos, this is my attempt:

Cheers,

Mol

[Galteemore]

Excellent work! And if you live near Andy you’re probably not far from me (far west Oxfordshire) 

[Turin60]

Thanks for the interest guys, Mol as far as standards go I'm going for EM on 21mm and I do like your "Silver" engine, early days yet, my own motive power looks set to be a C class (in silver) and a G class (later type in black) and when new patterns are made hopefully a second (earlier) G class to be in green.

Galteemore, I live in NW Hampshire so as you say not too far away.

It's early days yet, points to build and sleeper bases are hopefully on their way to me, baseboards are part new build and part recycling, the design will be quite simple but we can look at this at some point in the future.

John Bruce.

[Galteemore]

Any ideas for what kind of set up you’ll be modelling in terms of prototype? Looks a great start. We used to live in NW Hants between Basingstoke and Fleet……I modelled Kato N gauge out of the box back then! 

[Broithe]

22 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

We used to live in NW Hants between Basingstoke and Fleet.

We were at Odiham in 1967 & 8.

[Colonel]

Swillybegs will be at Southampton next month and know Andy will be there too, so maybe see you there as well.

David

[Turin60]

Galteemore, my model will be fairly minimal featuring just two points and will be of the "Bitza station" school which was popularised perhaps by the late Iain Rice and carried on by James Hilton even more minimally!  Mine will feature a goods loop with small stone & brick goods shed, a siding feeding a small agricultural merchants in corrugated iron. The line through the single platform ends under an oxide painted girder bridge, the line presuming to be closed beyond the bridge with a disused signal post in front of the bridge.

The (small) station building will again be stone with brick quoins and will also act as a view block for the fiddle yard, for the bridge I found a good colour photograph showing what I considered perfect...can I find it now, can I heck.

However in the meantime there are some points to build, if it helps anyone else I'm cheating here in that despite working to 21mm gauge I'm using Peco point plans for the templates. Peco track geometry is spot on despite having sleeper spacing to suit European spacing, so download the Peco templates and before printing them enlarge the image by 127% and hey presto 21mm gauge points with more or less (?) correct sleeper spacing.

John Bruce.

[Turin60]

For folk in the UK wishing to try 21mm gauge using EM standards be it in 4mm scale or 7mm scale (Three foot gauge), Paul Martin of EDM models produces and sells a 3D printed back to back gauge photo attached.

Gauge shown in the photograph with a 4mm scale wheel on a 26mm length axle, hope this helps someone.

John Bruce.

Edited December 30, 2025 by Turin60
grammar

[Mol_PMB]

Ah, I know Paul but I didn't know he made those. 19.2mm across faces, I assume?

I made one myself out of a block of brass which is good for plain axles but not ideal for powered ones.

 

[Turin60]

The website claims 19.3mm, I shall have to check. Might need to introduce it (very gently of course) to some very fine wet & dry.

John Bruce.

On 25/12/2025 at 7:31 AM, Colonel said:

Swillybegs will be at Southampton next month and know Andy will be there too, so maybe see you there as well.

David

I plan on attending so will make a point of looking you up.

John Bruce.

[leslie10646]

Southampton MREx was the first thing written into my 2026 diary. Even more compulsory attendance if it will have TWO Irish layouts! What are you bringing this time Andy?

[Colonel]

20 hours ago, Turin60 said:

For folk in the UK wishing to try 21mm gauge using EM standards be it in 4mm scale or 7mm scale (Three foot gauge), Paul Martin of EDM models produces and sells a 3D printed back to back gauge photo attached.

Gauge shown in the photograph with a 4mm scale wheel on a 26mm length axle, hope this helps someone.

John Bruce.

Useful to know, though I've always just relied on my vernier gauge (also set 19.2).  Notice that the wheels are barely on the 26mm axles, which could be a problem for outside/top hat bearings. I favour 2mm brass wire for coach and wagon axles - it is slightly fiddly adding pinpoint ends, but having long used Kadees and now DG couplings, the magnets are not attracted to  brass axles that also can be made longer to stick out better either side.

[Turin60]

First one done.  One down and one to go, it needs quite a bit of cleaning up yet followed by gapping the PCB sleepers then electrical testing. The final check will be to see if something rolls through it without falling off, so I'd better get on and finish a cement type (?) van I've started....until then it's all theoretical!

Colonel, don't panic the wheels on the 26mm axles were just to check clearances, for the real wheels I an going to try (1) MJT inside bearing units with longer axles, I'm not running  long trains and when using auto couplings with a latch you don't want the wagons "hunting" and re-coupling.  (2) cutting and sleeving 26mm axles to use the pin points,  there won't be a huge amount of stock so hopefully such butchery will not cause me too many problems.

The couplings I'm planning on using are DG, I was tempted by Spratt & Winkle but then I could't run my stock on Mr C's layout, good tech' reason for using brass axles though.

I am a touch out of practice building copper-clad points but have now got my eye in so the next one will be better.

John Bruce.

Edited December 31, 2025 by Turin60
Appearance.

[Turin60]

Oh Dear. While cleaning up the first point in my new gauge I realised I'd made a mistake, if it's not too tedious I'll explain. If you've ever seen point work built using PCB aka copper clad sleepers you will have noticed that as in real points the point blades are joined together with one or more tiebars, on many model points this tiebar is the width of a sleeper and very securely soldered to the blades. Now mechanically however it is only to take the weight of our toy train yet this soldered joint suffers from a certain amount of twisting stress, if you've ever had one of these joints fail at an exhibition you know what a pain it can be to repair.

I saw a chap at an exhibition demonstrating building PCB point work and he had a neat way of joining the tie bar to the point blades which I have taken on board. Instead of a large soldered joint he joined the two with an L shaped piece of phosphor bronze wire so it is just the PB wire that holds the two parts together and with a little flexibility and no stress on the joint, oh and for the tie bar I use copper clad fibreglass strip intended for N scale.

Yes it's a bit fiddly but well worth it, I've not had one fail yet. And the mistake I made was I used PB wire that was far too thin so it bent easily.

In the photo above you can see the L shaped wire soldered into the foot of the rail out of the way of the wheel flanges, the tie bar is gapped but not the sleepers yet.

One down one to go. John Bruce.

[Mol_PMB]

Neat work on the flatbottom point blades!

[Turin60]

On 30/12/2025 at 7:24 PM, leslie10646 said:

Southampton MREx was the first thing written into my 2026 diary. Even more compulsory attendance if it will have TWO Irish layouts! What are you bringing this time Andy?

On Andy's behalf I can report that he will be exhibiting his new GWR broad gauge layout based on Marlborough!

John Bruce.

[Turin60]

Now there are two. I've been busy in a steady sort of way! The second point for my Irish micro layout are done, that is to say the construction phase is complete next step is gapping the sleepers to avoid the dreaded short circuit followed by filler too hide the gap thus created.

In the mean time I shall be working on what passes for baseboards, as a clue they are made from recycled Ikea drawers, must be the Scottish part of my ancestry.

John Bruce.

[Mol_PMB]

Excellent. I'm looking forward to seeing progress on the layout.

As usual, I have got distracted by building rolling stock, but I need to get back to buildings and scenery on mine. The excuse I have concocted is that I need some rolling stock with wide footboards to make sure I put the platforms in the right place (and indeed my 6-wheeler is a rather tight fit against the one bit of platform I've built so far).

[Turin60]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Excellent. I'm looking forward to seeing progress on the layout.

As usual, I have got distracted by building rolling stock, but I need to get back to buildings and scenery on mine. The excuse I have concocted is that I need some rolling stock with wide footboards to make sure I put the platforms in the right place (and indeed my 6-wheeler is a rather tight fit against the one bit of platform I've built so far).

That sounds like an excellent excuse reason for working on what would in effect be a "gauging" vehicle!

John Bruce.

[Turin60]

An unwelcome visitor comes calling. Yes curse him, reality came calling while I was fiddling around with my new points on the baseboard (being refurbished/recycled!),  it seems that I don't have space between the loop line and the rear of the board for a convincing low relief goods shed. Soooo, instead there will be a partially demolished platform with overgrowing brambles and so on, that's the rear dealt with.  I don't know if I can keep my agricultural merchant still on the remaining siding or replace it with my low relief goods shed idea, as in it doesn't exist yet.

Much more fiddling to be done yet with cardboard  and so on, we'll get there in due course. I must draw up a plan for the model for your consideration.

John Bruce.

[Turin60]

My unwelcome visitor is still hanging around like a bad smell, however I'm learning to work with him!  Now given the space I have I could fall back on an Inglenook shunting puzzle but much as I enjoy a shunting puzzle I've been there and done that, and to be honest on this occasion I would like to have something where I can operate in a more railway like manner. So we are now having the back of a small signal cabin at the extreme front lefthand side as a view block with the platform and station platform deemed to be further to the left (thus off scene), so I am still hoping for my agricultural merchant/dealer by the rearmost righthand siding, the through line being deemed to have been lifted beyond the road bridge (steel girder with stone abutments), its former route being guarded by a redundant wooden signal post.

Please ignore the mess/storage of valuable material below the layout!

The abutment shown in the photograph I've borrowed from my EM gauge Light Railway to get an idea of the affect, the track is only sat in place at the moment while I contemplate manual point operation via a simple slide switch or by simple servo's, decisions, decisions!

At this end of the model there will be a slightly skew roadbrige to help hide the actual end of the track, the girders will be a faded red oxide colour with grey stone abutments. That's the plan anyway.

John Bruce.

Edited February 5 by Turin60
spelling

[Turin60]

Just thinking ahead for my to be built G class. Given when the second batch of the G class locos were introduced, delivered from Deutz in a "green' but seeing no service in this colour, all repainted prior to service into simple black & white. My question would be given that at the time of their introduction the "Flying Snail" was still in use did the locomotives actually carry this?  I know later the broken wheel logo was applied with Black & Tan livery from 1963 or 1964?

Your thoughts would be most welcome

Edited February 26 by Turin60
missing dates

[Mol_PMB]

No G class carried a snail in CIE service. 
As far as I can tell, only one was green in service. 

 

Edited February 27 by Mol_PMB

[Mol_PMB]

Also, after being delivered in green the G611s were painted black and tan first. 
A few were later just black with white trim. 

[Turin60]

On 27/2/2026 at 11:27 AM, Mol_PMB said:

Also, after being delivered in green the G611s were painted black and tan first. 
A few were later just black with white trim. 

So, no snail on G class locomotives, but now I'm confused as I assumed (always a mistake!) that the plane(ish) black came before Black & Tan. Also I see the green G shown above is from the first batch....waiting for Silverfox to re-master their model unless anyone on here has an un-built one they don't need anymore  .

John Bruce.

[Mol_PMB]

It’s complicated and I’m away from home at present so don’t have access to my records. 
I did a G class livery matrix which is somewhere on this forum. 

Looking at the bigger picture:
BnT without roundel from late 1961. On A/B101/B113/C class locos the tan band was deep. 141s and shunters always had a shallow band.
Then black, around 1963, a few early locos without roundel but most with. 

141s later gained roundels as did 181s.

Late 1960s, some black main line locos got yellow ends.
Late 1960s A and C class rebuilds, BnT with roundel. The first few locos rebuilt had a roundel with a deep tan band, but most had the shallow tan band. 
 

many locos missed out one or more liveries. 

 

[Turin60]

Thanks very much for that Paul, not sure how I missed the G class list. Cheers.

John Bruce.

[Mol_PMB]

I have updated versions of all of the livery matrices at home, as I keep adding to them as I find more photos. When I get a chance later this week I'll post a more complete version.

I also have a spreadsheet with links/references to many photos of the class.

Note that one source says that G602 was green, but this is disproven by photos showing it still in silver in summer 1963. Some sources say all three G601s were green, I can't disprove G601 but I'm fairly sure it went straight from silver to black like G602 did.

In general, large numbers near the middle of the cabside of a shunter (or the middle of the bodyside of a main line loco) are a pre-roundel livery. Small numbers at the bottom of the bodyside would normally be used with a roundel. As ever, there were a few exceptions.

[jhb171achill]

On 26/2/2026 at 9:30 PM, Turin60 said:

Just thinking ahead for my to be built G class. Given when the second batch of the G class locos were introduced, delivered from Deutz in a "green' but seeing no service in this colour, all repainted prior to service into simple black & white. My question would be given that at the time of their introduction the "Flying Snail" was still in use did the locomotives actually carry this?  I know later the broken wheel logo was applied with Black & Tan livery from 1963 or 1964?

Your thoughts would be most welcome

No, the earlier “G”s never carried a “snail” either in silver OR green. The green livery of G611 at Downpatrick is fictitious in three ways -

1. Only the G601s ever ran in green, never the 611s.

2. Even if they had, G611 has black side frames (should be green)

3. The snail and small number on the cabside is entirely wrong; should be large number and no logo. 

When first in traffic the G611 series were black’n’tan. The tan band disappeared on SOME of them (not all) a few years later.

When the last three were in use in the mid / late 70s, 611 & 616 had no tan band, but 613 did.

[Turin60]

For a small class of locomotives it seems quite a minefield, thank you all for your help and advice.

As far as my G class (Worsley Works) is concerned we have a footplate and frames up together, angle brackets (footplate to frames) next and I'm not looking forward to those, vacuum pipes (lost wax brass) are sorted though. Must take some photo's before too long.

John Bruce.

[Mol_PMB]

Attached, a list of links references to over 200 G class photos.

There are many more out there no doubt, I see I haven't trawled my library or the NLI for this list (though I did do so when preparing the livery matrix), but these are the ones I've listed so far.

Also you'll have seen these, no doubt:

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305876

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305875

The G617s were painted BnT with large numbers (no roundels, the roundel hadn't been invented yet) before entering service.

G611, G614, G615 and G616 were later painted black without the tan band, and had a roundel on the cabside with a small number below. There were differences in the exact position of the roundel.

G614 was withdrawn much earlier than the others.

G612, G613 and G617 seem to have kept their original livery throughout their lives. They didn't have roundels added later (NB some E class did, on this livery).

 

 

G_class_photolist.xlsx