DCC questions

[billyboy]

Hi guys,

 

I've three questions about DCC so far, my layout is roughly 4m by 4m by 4m by 6m ( the 6 meter part is the main terminus) I'm about to start drilling the base board for the droppers to the power bus. What the rule of thumb on spacing between them?

 

 

The second question is... : way back when I bought a Lima signal light that hooks into a lima 3 switch gizmo (flattish square red yoke with a black switch and three power points on it and this feeds to the signal and then to a track with a cut in the rail. The idea been green light you have power to the track and move on ; red light you have no power to the track and go nowhere. My plan was to use this as the programming track as its in the yard and I thought it'd look pretty fancy with the signal light that killed main power to the track. I get the impression that this might be a bad idea DCC wise

 

Third question : My Digitrak Zephyr has landed ....horray!!!! ..... Can I or do I power accessories off the main DCC power bus?

 

The manual is fair sketchy and I'm too lazy to browse the Digitrak site forums.

 

 

 

Any help gratefully appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Bill

[BosKonay]

Hello Bill and welcome to the site!

 

Lots of questions there!

 

Generally, it's recommended to run a dropper every 3-5 feet (or roughly every length of flex track, or at worse, every other length for long straights). I also like dropping power directly onto the points for reliable running.

 

On the programming switch, as long as the 'gizmo' fully isolates the track, it should make a good programming track.

 

Third, yes, you can run the layout and all accessories on the same bus.

[irishthump]

The second question is... : way back when I bought a Lima signal light that hooks into a lima 3 switch gizmo (flattish square red yoke with a black switch and three power points on it and this feeds to the signal and then to a track with a cut in the rail. The idea been green light you have power to the track and move on ; red light you have no power to the track and go nowhere. My plan was to use this as the programming track as its in the yard and I thought it'd look pretty fancy with the signal light that killed main power to the track. I get the impression that this might be a bad idea DCC wise

 

 

I don't think that switch is suitable as it sounds like it uses a single pole/single throw switch which uses a common return. You need to wire it with a double pole/double throw switch to keep the two outputs seperate. It's also a good idea to have a section of track between the main line and programming track which is dead when the programming track is activated.

 

Here is a link to a great site for all things DCC - http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.html#Programming

[DiveController]

It's like high school physics all over again!

but yes, a good site

[Noel]

Hi Guys

New here. Great site.

 

I've been collecting models for about 45 years from Hornby-Dublin, Triang-Hornby, Hornby, Bachmann, etc, and recently a few Murphy locos. 20 years ago I started to build a layout. Got as far as structural work with joining base boards, folding legs, laying track, first fix electrical 12v block system, scratch built stations, buildings, and built sectional block switch panels. About 15 years ago due to family committements I parked the project. I am now ready to start with the scenery and landscaping.

 

But it looks like I should really adjust the wiring for DCC and put modules in my collection of older locos (70 approx over 45 years). I don't have an issue wiring in the modules as nowadays the modules look small enough to shoe horn into the smallest tank locos.

 

Any recommendations for a DCC system?

Need to be able to operate up to 8 locos independently at the same time - 5amp enough?

Like the idea of wireless hand helds with rotary knob

Like the idea of iPad integration for programming and control

Layout is approx 17ft x 14ft on three levels.

 

There seem to be a vast array of DCC module options. Any suggestions for older models? Any suggestions for simplifying the rewrite which at least is unobstructed as I haven't yet filled in the scenery.

 

Advice much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

Noel

[BosKonay]

Welcome to the site Noel!

 

That's a lot of questions

 

- I'd recommend the Lenz System or Ecos

 

- 5A should be plenty

 

- Most systems will now run from iphone and ipad apps, might not be rotary, but gives you a lot of flexibility and 'wifi' control (so no line of sight worries like with some of the older IR based systems)

 

Some of the older models may not be DCC compatible, or may be too much work to get there, it all depends on how you want to run the layout, and the range of stock. Depending on the layout structure, you could even have some loops or lines run DC, while others run DCC

[burnthebox]

Hi Noel & welcome to the site, lots of info & helpful advice on here, I would very much like to know all about dcc as I'm planning to go dcc myself when I finally get my layout going, any pics of your endeviours to date,

[Noel]

Welcome to the site Noel!

 

That's a lot of questions

 

- I'd recommend the Lenz System or Ecos

 

- 5A should be plenty

 

- Most systems will now run from iphone and ipad apps, might not be rotary, but gives you a lot of flexibility and 'wifi' control (so no line of sight worries like with some of the older IR based systems)

 

Some of the older models may not be DCC compatible, or may be too much work to get there, it all depends on how you want to run the layout, and the range of stock. Depending on the layout structure, you could even have some loops or lines run DC, while others run DCC

 

Thanks. The current track electrics are working via switched sections and scratch built twin rotary knob interia controllers (ie brake simulators), combined with old guage master electronic track cleaners which were very effective. Few further questions:

 

1. Do DCC systems behave like the old electronic track cleaners which gave smoother 12v running?
   
2. Should I just join all track sections and feed power to one area or multiple areas to avoid voltage drop?
   
3. Should I consider replacing my points with electrofrog versions?
   
4. Are there cab controllers with two knobs (ie power + brake simulation)?
   

 

Thanks

[BosKonay]

1 - DCC runs with 'full' voltage AC to all of the track, all the time. Avoiding low voltage, etc. Track cleaning is still needed, but the high track voltage, means your focus is on driving the train, not the track

 

2 - Yes and no It depends on your current wiring and layout. Ideally you should have a DCC Bus, and feed all sections of the layout from it. You can't have enough feeds or droppers.

 

3 - Only if you are having running problems or use a lot of short wheel base locos (or older locos with less pickups than modern stuff)

 

4 - There are even USB controllers that simulate a full on loco

 

 

Also the Digitrax Zephr

Edited August 23, 2014 by BosKonay

[Noel]

Thanks BosKonay, this is really helpful. They are impressive. I'll do a bit more web searching on the controller options. I need to figure out which DCC modules types to install in my old locos. I'll do this slowly a few locos at a time. I presume I can use the simplest types for power only modules unless I need lights, sound, etc, but I may install small running lights in some of the steam locos which presumably need DCC modules with more wires attached to power the lights, and on the few diesels I have change the lights based on direction.

 

1. Have reliable automatic couplings been made for OO locos (e.g. bachmann/hornby style)?
   
2. How does DCC sound work? Is the sound built into the DCC module or is it a separate module connected to the DCC module?
   
3. Aside from horns, whistles, etc, are there sound modules the simulate diesel engine noises and steam engines running?
   
4. Any recommendations for DCC module brands? There seem to be modules from €20 to right up to €120
   
5. For lights in coach rakes I presume I need to either hard wire the rake together with power pickups on one coach and a single DCC accessory module, or do folks put independent power pickups on all their coaches with a DCC module in each?
   

 

Re scenery the way I learned 40 years ago was using various combinations of chicken wire, paper mach, 1/4 aero board, plaster, fabric + PVA glue, etc. I presume there are now more modern techniques using modern materials such foam insulations, ultra light weight plaster/filler materials, spray on foams, etc. The way I learned was a very messy and wet process, but there may be newer materials that are easier to carve/sculpt in place with a PVA skin applied later ready for painting and scatters, etc. If there are any web sites covering same I'd be grateful for a pointer and I will read up on it. If things have moved on, it may save me a lot of effort to use newer techniques and newer materials. The layout is made of six separable baseboards, so the scenery will need splitting at joints also for rare transportability or storage.

 

Many thanks again for taking the time to answer my flood of questions, many of which I'm sure are rather silly ones.

 

Noel

 

Block Switch Panels I hope to make redundant with DCC

 

Edited August 24, 2014 by Noel

[BosKonay]

Have reliable automatic couplings been made for OO locos (e.g. bachmann/hornby style)?

 

//Yes. Check out Kadee couplers. They look and work relatively prototypical key and can be uncoupled magnetically.

 

How does DCC sound work? Is the sound built into the DCC module or is it a separate module connected to the DCC module?

 

//Many modern locos including the Murphy 201 and 071 are per wired for sound and even include a speaker fitted. All that's required is to pop in a sound equipped dcc module otherwise you can buy chips with sound on board and find room to fit the speaker :usually in fuel tanks or tenders)

 

Aside from horns, whistles, etc, are there sound modules the simulate diesel engine noises and steam engines running?

// Absolutely! Modern DCC sound provides up to 14 unique sounds as well as full engine noises perfectly syncd to the acceleration and braking. You can even notch up a stationary loco.

 

Any recommendations for DCC module brands? There seem to be modules from €20 to right up to €120

// there is a huge range. DCC concepts just brought our a new range that include some very small decoders, ideal for squeezing into steam engines and smaller locos and also offer a stay alive module which maintains power to the loco over dirty or poor track.

 

For lights in coach rakes I presume I need to either hard wire the rake together with power pickups on one coach and a single DCC accessory module, or do folks put independent power pickups on all their coaches with a DCC module in each?

// check out traintech http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/lighting/interior-coach-lighting I've to test install one and they look good. Each coach gets a small smd led strip on the roof with an integrated battery and motion sensor. If the coach moves the lights come on. If it's stationary for a predefined amount of time they go out. Very handy compromise to dropping contacts at every coach.

Edited August 25, 2014 by BosKonay

[Dave]

Hattons do there own range of DCC decoders, I have used quite a few of them and find them reliable and very competitively priced. Postage is very cheap too

 

8 pin 4 function

http://www.ehattons.com/62784/Hattons_Model_Railways_Ltd_DCR_8PIN_Harness_8_pin_harness_4_function_1_1Amp_decoder_with_back_EMF/StockDetail.aspx

 

21 pin 4 function

http://www.ehattons.com/71920/Hattons_Model_Railways_Ltd_DCR_21PIN_Direct_21_pin_4_function_1_1Amp_direct_plug_decoder_with_back_EMF/StockDetail.aspx

[BosKonay]

Interesting! They look like an OEM version of the DCC-Concepts units..

[Noel]

Thanks guys, I will check that out. What sound module do you recommend for the Murphy 141, or 181?

 

Also does 4 function mean (power/drive + 3 other switch on/off circuits for lights, etc). Thanks again.

[Dave]

Murphy Models do the sound chip for the 071 for €120 and the 141 needs a speaker fitted and the chip is available from the model shop in Belfast

[BosKonay]

Murphy Models manufacture sound chips for their range, and ModelShopBelfast.com also offer an alternative range. Both are excellent, but I personally prefer the sounds from the MSB units.

 

Functions are solid state control circuits that can be used for lights, uncoupling, etc. Most provide a simple 12v DC supply, and others can provide 'special effects' like fashing strobes, etc. Each decoder will have different options and features.

 

2 Function is your basic decoder, it will run the loco, and give you two (typically) light circuits, that you can use for directional lights, headlights, etc, as you wish.

 

More functions, simply give you more circuits, so you can have more light controls, headlights independent of the directional lights, cab lights, etc.

[Noel]

Thanks again

[irishthump]

I have several of MSB's sound decoders, 141's, 071's and 201's. As Boskonay said the quality of the sound files are excellent.

I also have a 141 decoder that I had made up by Olivia's Trains in the UK, it's a Loksound decoder like the Murphy Models 071 and 201 (the MSB decoders are Zimo). Both types have excellent motor control but the Loksounds have a "manual notching" feature which allows you to increase the revs of the engine sound independently of the locos speed. It's great for simulating getting a heavy train started but not essential!

[irishthump]

Hattons do there own range of DCC decoders, I have used quite a few of them and find them reliable and very competitively priced. Postage is very cheap too

 

8 pin 4 function

http://www.ehattons.com/62784/Hattons_Model_Railways_Ltd_DCR_8PIN_Harness_8_pin_harness_4_function_1_1Amp_decoder_with_back_EMF/StockDetail.aspx

 

21 pin 4 function

http://www.ehattons.com/71920/Hattons_Model_Railways_Ltd_DCR_21PIN_Direct_21_pin_4_function_1_1Amp_direct_plug_decoder_with_back_EMF/StockDetail.aspx

 

Dave, you notice any issues with the Hattons decoders when trying to set start and top voltage CV's? I'm having some trouble getting them to run how I want them....

[Dave]

Dave, you notice any issues with the Hattons decoders when trying to set start and top voltage CV's? I'm having some trouble getting them to run how I want them....

 

No I haven't, I have 3 of them fitted to Kato locos and they run fine.

[billyboy]

Lads, thanks for the info....I'll have a proper read at lunchtime.

[billyboy]

I was thinking that as it has a cut in one rail not two , suitable for DC but not DCC. I've a double pole\double throw switch someplace I test with that.

[Noel]

Murphy Models do the sound chip for the 071 for €120 and the 141 needs a speaker fitted and the chip is available from the model shop in Belfast

 

Thanks Dave. Any recommendation for speaker vendors?

[Dave]

Thanks Dave. Any recommendation for speaker vendors?

 

The model shop in Belfast do them and DCC supplies

[Dhu Varren]

I have several of MSB's sound decoders, 141's, 071's and 201's. As Boskonay said the quality of the sound files are excellent.

I also have a 141 decoder that I had made up by Olivia's Trains in the UK, it's a Loksound decoder like the Murphy Models 071 and 201 (the MSB decoders are Zimo). Both types have excellent motor control but the Loksounds have a "manual notching" feature which allows you to increase the revs of the engine sound independently of the locos speed. It's great for simulating getting a heavy train started but not essential!

 

DCC Supplies can reblow Loksound V3.5 decoders with 141/181 and 201 sounds. These sounds were originally compiled by Mr Sound Guy, who currently does the sounds for MSB. Unfortunately the V3.5 decoder is no longer available new, and DCC supplies cannot blow V4.0 decoders with the sounds, but if you can obtain a used V3.5, or have a spare one then they can reblow it for you. I had a couple reblown earlier this year for £12.00 each plus postage.

[Noel]

DCC Supplies can reblow Loksound V3.5 decoders with 141/181 and 201 sounds. These sounds were originally compiled by Mr Sound Guy, who currently does the sounds for MSB. Unfortunately the V3.5 decoder is no longer available new, and DCC supplies cannot blow V4.0 decoders with the sounds, but if you can obtain a used V3.5, or have a spare one then they can reblow it for you. I had a couple reblown earlier this year for £12.00 each plus postage.

 

Thanks. Just read a magazine article on fitting one of these to a 141/181 but it seems a little bit of cannibalisation is needed to fit a speaker.

[leslie10646]

Just to say (admit?) that I have NIR 112 sound chipped by Gareth at the Belfast Model Shop and I think it's seriously good.

 

Of course, no-one knows that I have been testing the new spoil wagon at high speed behind her!

 

Sounds were even better when I tested the new wagon behind my sound-fitted No.53 (steam 2-6-4T for the younger members) which has sound fitted by Coastal DCC here in the other island.

 

I'm reading this thread with interest as I am VERY slowly getting my layout under way and have gone for DCC - mainly for the sound, which amuses my grandson AND his grandfather!

 

Leslie

[irishthump]

Thanks. Just read a magazine article on fitting one of these to a 141/181 but it seems a little bit of cannibalisation is needed to fit a speaker.

 

Not at all. If you look at my workbench thread you can see how installed a decoder and speaker in one of my 141's. The back of the speaker can be removed which allows you to fit it under the body without having to do any drastic surgery!

[Dhu Varren]

Thanks. Just read a magazine article on fitting one of these to a 141/181 but it seems a little bit of cannibalisation is needed to fit a speaker.

 

No modification is required if you fit a standard 20mm X 40mm speaker. The 141/181 comes with a speaker mounting already fitted, so all that is needed is to fit the speaker, solder the speaker wires to the circuit board where indicated, plug in the 21 pin decoder, and off you go. I have 2 141s, and 2 181s, two of which are fitted with DCC Supplies sound, and two are fitted with the sound from Olivias Trains. that Irishthump mentioned.

[Noel]

Just to say (admit?) that I have NIR 112 sound chipped by Gareth at the Belfast Model Shop and I think it's seriously good.

 

Of course, no-one knows that I have been testing the new spoil wagon at high speed behind her!

 

Sounds were even better when I tested the new wagon behind my sound-fitted No.53 (steam 2-6-4T for the younger members) which has sound fitted by Coastal DCC here in the other island.

 

I'm reading this thread with interest as I am VERY slowly getting my layout under way and have gone for DCC - mainly for the sound, which amuses my grandson AND his grandfather!

 

Leslie

 

Thanks guys. I couldn't find your workbench tread irishthump

[irishthump]

Thanks guys. I couldn't find your workbench tread irishthump

 

Here it is - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/77-Graham-s-Workbench/page10

[Noel]

Here it is - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/77-Graham-s-Workbench/page10

 

Thanks. I presume getting the body off a 071 is similar. Scratch that, I just red the instructions I just need a longer magnetic philips to get the 4 body screws off. Decided to run in anyway on 12v DC before installing the DCC modules in a few days time. Now to decide on a starting configuration DCC control system!!!

Edited August 28, 2014 by Noel

[Noel]

Q - Should a MM 071 with the MM DCC Sound module fitted run on 12v dc analog?

[Dhu Varren]

Q - Should a MM 071 with the MM DCC Sound module fitted run on 12v dc analog?

 

Noel, it depends on the setting for CV29. Find out what the current value is, make a note of it, add 4 to it and enter the new value. It should then run on DC. If not, you can always put the original value back in. If you have any problems, let me know what the original value was, and take it from there.

[Noel]

Noel, it depends on the setting for CV29. Find out what the current value is, make a note of it, add 4 to it and enter the new value. It should then run on DC. If not, you can always put the original value back in. If you have any problems, let me know what the original value was, and take it from there.

 

Thanks. I am awaiting a DCC controller and just wanted to test it with existing 12v analog wiring to see what the sound was like. I had assumed most decoders by default will run on analog 12v dc. I put the module in but the loco doesn't run at all so I guess the 'Analog DC' bit is set to off in CV29. I've popped the blanking plate back on while I run it in on 12v DC and will try it with the DCC gear when it arrives in the next week or so. Thanks again.

[Noel]

Thanks. I am awaiting a DCC controller and just wanted to test it with existing 12v analog wiring to see what the sound was like. I had assumed most decoders by default will run on analog 12v dc. I put the module in but the loco doesn't run at all so I guess the 'Analog DC' bit is set to off in CV29. I've popped the blanking plate back on while I run it in on 12v DC and will try it with the DCC gear when it arrives in the next week or so. Thanks again.

 

Old thread, but just by way of update, the decoder was dead and replaced no problem by the retailer. It now works a treat in the 071 in DC Analog or DCC mode.

 

For DCC, I went with the NCE Pro Cab 5amp system, and so far happy with it. A few software annoyances on the cab user interface, but the overall system does what it says on the tin quite well. The physical ergonomics of the hand held cab is quite nice, combining speed buttons with the optional rotary button. The built in RS232 interface enabled iPhone use as Wireless cabs running WiThorttle app linked to JMRI on laptop plugged into the NCE. The RS232 port, JMRI and WiThrottle has potentially saved me a lot of cash because now I dot nned to buy wireless cabs nor additional cabs.