NIR Early Livery

[DiveController]

Can anyone give me a quick outline on when the MM0111 early blue model would have run and where, NI only, cross-border, enterprise?

Thanks,

Kevin

[Glenderg]

Kevin,

 

I'm unsure of the dates when the yellow band at the front became red, but here are a few photos. 1982-84 I believe and the livery on the coaches is quite something...and yes that's a BR livery on this side of the ditch! Kirley kindly answered a similar post some time ago. http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2323-NIR-70-80s-livery?p=34361&viewfull=1#post34361

Richie

 

[Hunslet 102]

111 arrived with the red front in 1981 and the fronts were then changed to yellow as depicted above a few years later.Great photo's!

Edited August 25, 2014 by Hunslet 102

[heirflick]

great pics indeed!

[73.River.Roe.]

The fronts came with an orange reflective front, I actually have some left that was given to me back in 1981 when I first got my 1st GM model to add to the model which I painted with paint from York road workshops too..

[aclass007]

Can anyone give me a quick outline on when the MM0111 early blue model would have run and where, NI only, cross-border, enterprise?

Thanks,

Kevin

 

All three NIR GM locos were used on cross border enterprise up until they were replaced by the 201's.

112 was on loan to IE for a number of years after that, which is when it got the orange marker lights and window frames, which are detailed on MM's model.

All three are still in NIR's possession and are used in NI..

[DiveController]

WOW!! Well done, lads. Fantastic photos. Were these coaches ever modelled?

[DiveController]

Modeled

[tonybonneyba]

All three NIR GM locos were used on cross border enterprise up until they were replaced by the 201's.

112 was on loan to IE for a number of years after that, which is when it got the orange marker lights and window frames, which are detailed on MM's model.

All three are still in NIR's possession and are used in NI..

Irish Rail was short on locos at one point and nir had wrecked 112, so nir had a deal that if they loan. 112 to Irish Rail,that Irish Rail had to fix her up, Irish Rail actually made 112 better than ever, but when she returned Nir wrecked her again. Info was given to me & I'm only saying what I can rember.

[Glenderg]

WOW!! Well done, lads. Fantastic photos. Were these coaches ever modelled?

 

Aye i did a rake two weeks ago, will post photos tomorrow. R.

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

WOW!! Well done, lads. Fantastic photos. Were these coaches ever modelled?

 

 

Yes Chris Dyer sells them

[Blaine]

Yes Chris Dyer sells them

 

what ever happened to paint your own.......

[DiveController]

Tony, they have a habit of wrecking things up North, y'know!

[DiveController]

Thanks, Scottie……. who's Chris?

[DiveController]

Paint your own is for those of you gifted enough to have something that resembles a coach when finished

(I shall flagellate myself for my artistic inadequacies right after this post)

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Thanks, Scottie……. who's Chris?

 

Give Chris a call I think he still has some in stock. PM Wrenneire he should be able to hook you up with Chris

Here is a link to Chris's page

http://www.chrisdyerfairs.co.uk/index.php?p=1_2_Toy-Fairs

[DiveController]

Thanks, 4472!

[DiveController]

Any chance if seeing those photos when convenient, Glenderg?

[DiveController]

Sorry, to reopen this thread, guys. Can someone help me with the liveries in these photos (Page 1 of thread)

1. Is 112 in the early blue livery in first photo similar to MM0111?

2. There are two different liveries in the photos that I did not pick up on at first. One may be earlier with silver grey sides to the coach and a blue stripe and logo… the second is similar but has a thin white stripe above and below the blue and white background on the NR logo/

3. Does anyone recognize the coach behind 113 in the third photo. It has a different window arrangement from most of the coach in rakes. I though it was a brake but it is followed by a second in photo 3. It is also seen singly in other photos behind the loco.

4. Is 547 in the send last photo a buffet car?

5. WHat I the significance of the red and yellow lines on the coaches, first? buffet?

Thanks for any insight!

[Dhu Varren]

Sorry, to reopen this thread, guys. Can someone help me with the liveries in these photos (Page 1 of thread)

1. Is 112 in the early blue livery in first photo similar to MM0111?

2. There are two different liveries in the photos that I did not pick up on at first. One may be earlier with silver grey sides to the coach and a blue stripe and logo… the second is similar but has a thin white stripe above and below the blue and white background on the NR logo/

3. Does anyone recognize the coach behind 113 in the third photo. It has a different window arrangement from most of the coach in rakes. I though it was a brake but it is followed by a second in photo 3. It is also seen singly in other photos behind the loco.

4. Is 547 in the send last photo a buffet car?

5. WHat I the significance of the red and yellow lines on the coaches, first? buffet?

Thanks for any insight!

 

1. Yes the livery is the same as MM0111, except for the yellow warning panel. The MM0111 has the earlier orange/red panel.

2. The livery without the white stripes was the original blue/silver grey. The white lines were added later, and trains could be seen with mixed liveries during the change.

3. The coach behind the loco is a Brake Generating Van. Like IE, NIR had to provide electric power for lighting and heating. IE chose to have dedicated non-passenger carrying vehicles for the job, while NIR used passenger carrying vehicles, one half of which carried passengers, the other half had a guards compartment and a diesel generator, hence the grilles on one side. The other side was the corridor side, and had no grilles. All NIR Mk2 passenger trains had at least on generator van in the consist. The second coach is not a generator van, but one of the original driving trailers used with the Hunslets on the Enterprise when the loco was pushing.

4. Yes 547 is a Buffet Car, sometimes known as a Griddle Car. Now preserved by the RPSI.

5. The red and yellow lines on the coaches followed BR practice. Red indicated catering accommodation, and yellow indicated 1st class accommodation. The lines only appeared immediately over the appropriate accommodation, so a vehicle with only half used for catering would only have the line over the catering half.

Hope this all makes some sense.

[DiveController]

Yes that is a great description thank you for taking the time to type all that out I need to look back at the DVT and be more vigilant with the small details to help identify these. Can I ask one more question? You mentioned that the other side of the coach was a corridor side, even on the half brake. So I guess the Corridor was left all along one side even in the half break for access. Are all of the other non-brake coaches in the rake also of the Corridor type or open coaches? I'm looking into buying some respray ready to roll coaches probably just two or three to start. They seem to be modeled from open coaches hence the question...

[Dhu Varren]

The easy way to recognise the DVTs from any angle is that they do not have any exhaust equipment on the roof above the guards compartment, whereas the Generator vans do. Also the DVTs have four large windows at the passenger end, whereas the Generator vans have only three. The DVTs were converted from Brake Second coaches, and the Generator vans from Brake First coaches with one bay removed. Body wise, the Lima Brake First coach is perfect for conversion to a Generator Van, but not a DVT, unless you can accept the incorrect window spacing. Coaches were a mixture of both corridor and open coaches, but NIR used a number of ex BR 1st class corridor coaches converted to 2nd class open coaches, as did IE. I do not have access to my books on NIR coach details at the moment, but if no one else comes up with answers to your question about corridors, I will look it up when I get home at the weekend. The Lima Mk 2s, the second open, and first corridor, body wise are perfect for NIR coaches. You just need to know what interiors are required. Incidently, just in case you are not aware of it, the basic difference between the 1st class and 2nd class bodyshell is that 1st class bodyshells have 7 large windows, and 2nd class bodyshells have 8 windows. The 2nd class coaches converted from 1st class, will, of course have just 7 windows.

[DiveController]

Great information! I picked up a couple of early NIR coaches with a few more on order just waiting to receive them once ready. Thanks for all your information on this it helps me to understand whether my respray's are truly accurate and helps expand my knowledge in this area thanks again

Kevin

[Dhu Varren]

Back home again, and have looked up information about corridor coaches. Up till 1988 there was a mixture of corridor and open stock, and in 1988/9 all corridor stock was converted to open seating. Corridor stock was as follows. Generator Vans 911, 912, 913, 914, 915. 1st Class 902. 2nd Class (all ex BR 1st class coaches) 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928. It would appear that only the 2nd Class coaches converted from 1st Class were corridor coaches, all other 2nd Class coaches were open plan.

[73.River.Roe.]

Hi Dhu Varren I think 922 and 928 were the only 2 coaches not converted to open stock for whatever reason and both were scrapped early in the 90,s also 914 was not a generator van it was only a 1st/brake corridor coach.....

[Dhu Varren]

Hi Dhu Varren I think 922 and 928 were the only 2 coaches not converted to open stock for whatever reason and both were scrapped early in the 90,s also 914 was not a generator van it was only a 1st/brake corridor coach.....

 

Thanks for the info. You could be right about 922 & 928. Information I have about them is conflicting. One source says they were converted along with all the others, the other source suggests they were not. However, all records have 914 as being a Brake Generator Van converted from a 1st/Brake corridor coach. There is no mention in any of my records of a pure 1st/Brake corridor coach in NIR stock. Information about 914 now confirmed on the Internet.

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4779

Edited September 9, 2014 by Dhu Varren

[DiveController]

Back home again, and have looked up information about corridor coaches. Up till 1988 there was a mixture of corridor and open stock, and in 1988/9 all corridor stock was converted to open seating. Corridor stock was as follows. Generator Vans 911, 912, 913, 914, 915. 1st Class 902. 2nd Class (all ex BR 1st class coaches) 921, 922, 923, 924, 925, 926, 927, 928. It would appear that only the 2nd Class coaches converted from 1st Class were corridor coaches, all other 2nd Class coaches were open plan.

 

So the Gennys can be resprayed from Brake 1st coaches

NIR second corridors from BR Mk2 1st Corridors keeping the same interior if I'm modeling before the all open conversions in 1988.

I presume the single 902 first is from a BR Mk2 1st whose body would be externally identical to the converted NIR 2nd corridors with 7 windows.

There were also other NIR second opens that would have been derived from BR 2nd opens, I presume, which would have 8 windows per side.

Was the griddle car derived from BR buffet car?

[DiveController]

Aye i did a rake two weeks ago, will post photos tomorrow. R.

 

Hi Glenderg,

Would love to see your NIR rake if you get a chance to post some pics!

[Dhu Varren]

The Generator Vans can be built from the Lima Brake 1st, although some modification is required, namely the replacement of the seating bay next to the guards accommodation with a new facility for the guard. Grilles need to be added to the non-corridor side of the original guards van, and, of course, exhaust detail on the roof.

The NIR 2nd Class converts from 1st Class vehicles before 1988 conversions would be the same as the Lima 1st vehicles with 7 windows.

Coach 902 was a standard Mk 2 1st coach with 7 windows.

All the open 2nd coaches built as open 2nd would have 8 windows as per the Lima 2nd . If you are a stickler for details, it is worth remembering that NIR had a mixture of Mk 2b and Mk 2c coaches. The main physical differences were different roof ventilators, and different size toilet windows. Also, the Lima 1st Class coaches have not got the correct roof ventilator detail. When NIR converted the ex 1st coaches to open plan, the original corridor roof ventilator layout was retained.

The Griddle Car. BR only ever had one Mk 2 catering vehicle which was an air conditioned Mk 2f 2nd open conversion. This was purchased by NIR and became 546. 547 was built to a Mk 2b design, like Lima 2nd, with a number of windows filled in, and some replaced by aircon type windows.

The Grill/Bar Dining car 546 is another vehicle that can be built from a Lima coach. This time it is the Lima Mk 2f 2nd open that is required. Again a number of windows need to be filled in. The Hornby, Dapol or Airfix Mk2d 2nd open would also do for the conversion, but one of the toilet windows is in the wrong position.

[DiveController]

I am trying to acquire some of these in NIR livery but I think what is out there from two or three different vendors is not truly prototypical, just a respray of the nearest coach available maybe with the incorrect number of windows for the genny for instance. I could live with some minor detail disparities like roof vent design. I think I may end up trying to do this myself a long time in the future using this thread as a reference. So the DVT must have some sort of cab on one end which is hidden from view on the photos on page one of this thread when it is run in the rake and not in push-pull?

[33lima]

Are these any help? Bangor, 1993, 916 if I'm reading the number right:

 

 

[DiveController]

Oh, well done, dude! It's a very ionconspicuous cab isn't it?

[Dhu Varren]

I am trying to acquire some of these in NIR livery but I think what is out there from two or three different vendors is not truly prototypical, just a respray of the nearest coach available maybe with the incorrect number of windows for the genny for instance. I could live with some minor detail disparities like roof vent design. I think I may end up trying to do this myself a long time in the future using this thread as a reference. So the DVT must have some sort of cab on one end which is hidden from view on the photos on page one of this thread when it is run in the rake and not in push-pull?

 

You are right about vendors spraying any old coach in NIR livery, the Generator Vans in particular. NIR never had any pure Brake 1st or 2nd coaches, they were all either Generator Vans or Driving Trailers. If you do buy any resprayed coaches, try to get then all from the same vendor, as different people put the stripes at different heights, which does not look good in a rake. Some vendors also omit the stripe under the cantrail, grey, red or yellow. Also at the bottom of the coach side, many leave off the black band. I bought a couple of coaches a couple of years ago without checking this, and found the top grey and bottom black were missing. The waist stripes had been put on too low to compensate for the larger area of grey which had resulted from the omission of the black. When put into my own resprayed rake, they looked really awful, so I resold them. I then set about doing some more of my own, and have now got thirteen vehicles, including the three catering coaches, one Generator Van and one Driving Trailer in the process of being painted, hopefully they will be completed by the end of the year.

By the way, just for the record, and please don't take it the wrong way, but the driving trailers are classed as DBSO or DBFO, depending on class of accommodation. A DVT has no passenger accommodation, and is what BR uses on their ECML electrified push/pull services.

[tonybonneyba]

Are these any help? Bangor, 1993, 916 if I'm reading the number right:

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15178[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15179[/ATTACH]

Nice! I take it it was a standard back then that DVTs had to have gang ways?

[Dhu Varren]

The DBSOs (DVTs) were only used with the Hunslets. When the Hunslets operated the Enterprise, only one loco was used during periods of lighter traffic, with maybe five coaches, in push/pull mode. During periods of heavier demand, a second loco with extra coaches would have been added, to give a loco at each end. The two locos would then operate in multiple, thus maintaining the schedule with a much heavier train, and without having to run round at each end of the journey. The gangway on the DBSO would have been required to connect with the extra coaches, when they were added at that end.

The DBSO acquired for use with the Gatwicks, was an ex BR Scotrail DBSO which originally had a gangway to enable extra stock to be added when in 'pull' mode. This was removed when transferred to Anglia Railways, and subsequently to NIR. The gangway was never reinstated by NIR, as there was no requirement for extra stock to be added to that end.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Dhu Varren