Generator cars for irish coaching stock - specifically HLV

[Junctionmad]

I read through the sticky.

 

Whats not clear is what was used for NON-TL stock, like some cravens and parkroyals. These needed only a HLV ( heating luggage van) , Mention has been made to 4 wheel vans , but I don't remember those and I remember travelling in non-TL stock that had a bogie luggage van.

 

SO what was marshalled with these stock to provide steam heating only.

 

thanks , oh knowledgeable ones

[Junctionmad]

I always thought they were the diesel tanks for the steam boiler , water would have typically been carried inside

[Garfield]

I always thought they were the diesel tanks for the steam boiler , water would have typically been carried inside

 

Perhaps they are.

[Glenderg]

If the mods could change the thread title to something more "human" that would be nice. HLV blah blah.

[josefstadt]

If the mods could change the thread title to something more "human" that would be nice. HLV blah blah.

 

Perhaps 'Steam Heating Vans for passenger trains' would be more accurate. The type of van in the photo did not have any generating capacity and was purely a steam heating van.

[Noel]

If the mods could change the thread title to something more "human" that would be nice. HLV blah blah.

 

Is HLV = Heating & Luggage Van?

 

Presume it ran with Dynamo lit stock if no generator.

[Noel]

Did CIE or any of its pre-depressors have heating or break vans similar to this LMS one?

 

[jhb171achill]

No. The closest thing to that running in Ireland were a few NCC full parcel brakes (or TSP BSO THF or whatever BR fans call 'em!).

 

All CIE genny vans were ex BR Mk 1, with several variations but same body design.

 

The Dutch vans were straight sided, shorter and converted from Christmas Quality Street tins, except they were noisier inside.

 

Then there were the various CIE 4 and 6 wheeled "tin vans" and "hot water bottles".

 

In case anyone asks, apart from the 4 wheels, none were ever anything but black'n'tan. They arrived far too late to be green.

[Noel]

No. The closest thing to that running in Ireland were a few NCC full parcel brakes (or TSP BSO THF or whatever BR fans call 'em!).

 

All CIE genny vans were ex BR Mk 1, with several variations but same body design.

 

The Dutch vans were straight sided, shorter and converted from Christmas Quality Street tins, except they were noisier inside.

 

Then there were the various CIE 4 and 6 wheeled "tin vans" and "hot water bottles".

 

In case anyone asks, apart from the 4 wheels, none were ever anything but black'n'tan. They arrived far too late to be green.

 

Thanks JB. Did the 4 and 6 wheelers once have silver and later green (flying snail) livery?

[Garfield]

Thanks JB. Did the 4 and 6 wheelers once have silver and later green (flying snail) livery?

 

I've seen photos of the TPO variant of the four-wheel tin vans in green, but not the luggage or steam heat vans, as far as I can recall.

 

As JB said, the six-wheelers only ever wore Black and Tan.

[jhb171achill]

The various types of four wheelers mostly started out in all-silver. Mayner (I think) has pics of a model like that which looks excellent. The silver "livery" was actually an absence of any livery at all - the things weren't painted at all! Roofs, ends, chassis, drawgear, the lot - all unpainted.

 

Many were painted the lighter green between about 1958 and 1963. Black'n'tan after that. Some aught from by now filthy silver to black'n'tan.

 

As Garfield mentions, the six wheelers and all bogies were only black'n'tan.

[Ral2011]

Thank you very much for the pictures of the 6 wheelers. As it seems they are all from one side, do you have pictures from the other side or does it look the same?

[DiveController]

Thanks JB. Did the 4 and 6 wheelers once have silver and later green (flying snail) livery?

 

The various types of four wheelers mostly started out in all-silver. Many were painted the lighter green between about 1958 and 1963.

Reasonably easy to find photos of the 4w 'tin' (heating and luggage) vans in silver

... but harder to find some of the 'hooded' (luggage) vans. Here's one I like from John Phillips in Valencia, 1957

Edited August 18, 2016 by DiveController

[Old Blarney]

Might this photograph be of use? Variety galore in rolling stock types and liveries - Vans too.

 

Source Ernie's' Irish Railway Photographs

 

[jhb171achill]

That's an interesting photo.

 

Left to right:

 

"H" van (grey, heavily brake dust weathered, snail)

 

GSWR open 3rd of about 1902-5 vintage, black'n'tan

 

Tin Van (silver; but for modellers beware - the roof is not black or grey - they were unpainted always - but it looks that way due to weathering and, remember, even then sometimes steam train soot / coal dust)

 

Tin Van, post-'55 green

 

GSR Bredin, post '55-green

 

Unidentified van - either early CIE or GSR mail / guard van (post-'55 green)

 

"C" Class loco, post-'55 green.

 

The picture is right at the end of the steam era, so a work-stained J15 would fit in well with the scene, as would locos of A, B121 (grey), B101, or early G class. Within a year, 141s would be a common sight.

 

Train make-ups then were not the boring fixed-set-of-same-type-of-stock that we've seen since the introduction of the Mk 2 "Supertrains" in 1972. Prior to that, it was very rare to get a train all of the same type of coach. Couplings were standard between all stock - something designers today have regressed on. It makes zero sense to have incompatible couplings sharing the same railway.

 

The above also shows that to walk between the only two passenger coaches would require a walk through not one, but two, tin vans. I encountered this once on a Rosslare - Limerick train, which had a van between two carriages, then another carriage, then another van. The van had cardboard packages of something or other in them and made for an unstable and noisy short walk from one coach to the next.....

 

For the benefit of modellers of this very interesting period, from recollection here are a few combinations on trains I remember travelling on. All were in the 1972-1980 period.

 

Rosslare - Limerick; as above, plus on another occasion a Dutch van, three laminates and a Park Royal.

 

Dublin - Cork; a Bredin, three laminates of two different types, two Park Royals and about three Cravens - all mixed up. A BR or Dutch Van was at one end and a six-wheel hot water bottle at the other.

 

Tralee line - a train with one Craven in between several park Royals and Laminates.

 

Loughrea - the one and only Loughrea coach, nothing else! Hauled by a "C".

 

Lisburn - Antrim; a "70" class set with the centre car being ex-GNR open 3rd 727*, the very last GNR coach in traffic, now unchanged from from GNR condition but in maroon and blue. Also, at the same time (1978, I think) one of the last MED sets had the last NCC coach in traffic, which I think might have been 526*. (* These were the UTA / NIR numbers. Original numbers were different). This last NCC coach had been externally repannelled by NIR in tin, but its interior was still old NCC with wooden seat frames. A beauty.

Edited August 23, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Weshty]

I like the tapered GSWR signal post myself. Complete with metal maintenance platform.

[Noel]

I like the tapered GSWR signal post myself. Complete with metal maintenance platform.

 

Me too. GWR was my introduction to semaphore signals so I'm not a fan of the round post signals which seem alien to me even though they are native to Ireland.

[Junctionmad]

Me too. GWR was my introduction to semaphore signals so I'm not a fan of the round post signals which seem alien to me even though they are native to Ireland.

 

The GWR round post , was very common after grouping and was very similar to more modern Irish railways semaphore. Who was the supplier to cie of semaphore bits ?

[Junctionmad]

 

Train make-ups then were not the boring fixed-set-of-same-type-of-stock that we've seen since the introduction of the Mk 2 "Supertrains" in 1972. Prior to that, it was very rare to get a train all of the same type of coach. Couplings were standard between all stock - something designers today have regressed on. It makes zero sense to have incompatible couplings sharing the same railway.

 

Of course modern carriages sets have far more incompatibilities then just couplings. incompatible AC , heating , door controls , train announcements , train information. Systems etc. Essentially unless you are prepared to strand your carriage design on a particular technical epoch , you are going to have issues with forwards compatibility in particular.

[BSGSV]

So for a layout circa 1980 ( +- 5 years), what would have been most likely behind non-TL parkroyals/laminates

 

The CIE converted GSV's in the 3201 to 3218 series appear to have been used on the Limerick - Rosslare line trains (including Limerick to the Junction). An IRRS Journal article has one of the 3201-3212 series on the 16:40 Waterford - Rosslare in May 1980, as part of a survey done of carriage allocation. Slightly later are a couple of pics from the area as attached. Apologies for the scan quality, but the first is 3205 on the 14:15 Limerick to Limerick Junction after arrival at the Junction on 16/07/85 and the second is 3216 stabled at Waterford the day before.

Edited September 15, 2014 by BSGSV