Irish Carriages

[Kirley]

JM Designs -Kits to build: Buffet Cars 2405-2418 & Corridor Standards 1339-55, 1356-71.

 

 

 

Trying to research these carriages and their liveries has proved difficult as I have been unable to find any published material other than Desmond Coakham "Irish Broad Gauge Carriages". While it contains many photographs they are all in black and white and its contents is done in a narrative style.

 

Doyle & Hirst present their information in a more researchable style but their quality of photographs (B & W) are poor. In their 1st edition 1979 they include 2405-18 and 1356-71 all built from 1953 but obviously showing the current liveries in 1978.

 

Are there other books on Irish carriages? I would love one that gives the designer, builder, coach numbers, different liveries and when they were introduced/changed and of course colour photographs.

[jhb171achill]

Kirley, in terms of liveries, the above two GSRPS coaches are in the pre-1955 darker green, and the shade was accurate - I saw hem in the flesh. The mining is correct too for that era, though he "flying snails" are very slightly too small, and generally a coach would only have had one in the middle. Snails and lining in this livery were edged in gold, as were numerals.

 

Post 1955, the lighter green you'll see at Downpatrick on C231, G611 and the TPO, with a single thinner line along tyne waist, and both the snail and lining are unlined.The CIE coach 3223 at Downpatrick is not in the correct livery - it has the darker green but later style of lining. It has to be said it looks very well, but base your research on he other items mentioned above.

 

There are a number of preserved CIE buses in green, and 800 in Cultra was actually painted by CIE in Inchicore - so those will act as primary sources for the darker green, which remanned in use on buses, road vehicles and a handful of steam locos into the early 1960s. The light green was only applied to carriages.

[Riversuir226]

I ve pics of the gsprs rake of coaches that were stored at Rathpeacon in the early 1990's if its any use to you Kieran.

[Kirley]

Thanks Guys but my question is, Are there other books on Irish carriages?

[Glenderg]

http://man-fe.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=requestTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=44MAN_ALMA_DS21182607110001631&indx=2&recIds=44MAN_ALMA_DS21182607110001631&recIdxs=1&elementId=1&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=7&dscnt=0&frbg=&scp.scps=scope%3A%2844MAN%29%2Cprimo_central_multiple_fe&tab=local&dstmp=1411592202889&srt=rank&mode=Basic&&dum=true&tb=t&vl(freeText0)=carriage%20western&vid=MU_VU1

 

 

Kieran, this the only book i'm aware of, but i'm not sure if it goes as far as 1975, when published. The IRRS have a copy. It can't be bought either. A carriage diagram book from the inception of cie would be superb....

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliography_of_Irish_rail_transport

Edited December 7, 2014 by Glenderg

[Kirley]

A gap in the market then for an author who is looking for a challenge!

[BSGSV]

What period are you talking about regarding colour scheme?

 

No, there's no one book. There's information scattered around the net, IRRS journals, Irish Railway News (both incarnations) and books for those who have them.

[Kirley]

What period are you talking about regarding colour scheme?

 

Its the early period of CIE covering the inherited stock, the ones CIE built like Bredin's & Laminates. Information on Park Royals, Craven's onwards is more easily accessible.

[BSGSV]

I posted the following in another thread on this sub-forum called Liveries, that I find hard to find now. So I decided I may as well post it again. I would also like to point out that Bredin produced but 8 carriages in his time as CME. It was his predecessor Arthur Harty who introduced flush-sided coaches on the GSR in 1935. I don't know why the generic term Bredin has come into such wide useage.

 

Mr. D. Kennedy presented a paper to the Irish Railway Record Society which was published in their June 1965 Issue No. 37. The piece was entitled "Modern CIE Coaching Stock" and I would make it clear that coaching stock is all that is being discussed in this reply. Mr. Kennedy covered mainly the vehicles constructed by CIE and, inter alia, liveries applied. He acknowledged the assistance of Mr. Thomas Tighe of Inchicore ("Railway Tommy" well known in connection with the sadly removed railway at Malahide Castle) and Mr. Leslie Hyland of "Irish Railway News", so the credentials are good. Bear in mind the Journal in those days was monochrome, so Mr. Kennedy's word descriptions are all we have to go on, except where stated otherwise below.

 

JHB has pointed out that CIE adopted DUTC dark green with eau-de-nil lining, with examples of the colour cited at Headhunters and No. 800 at Cultra. Mr. Kennedy describes this as "dark bottle green" and it was applied to the first CIE-built coaches, Compo's 2124-9 of March 1951, 3rd's 1339-50 of late-1951 and Compo's 2130-6 of early-1952. These do not appear to have had any lining, but did have silver windows frames and a light green "1" on first class doors.

 

3rd's 1351-5 of 1952 were similar to above but with the addition of a narrow light green waistband. A quote from the article: "These were the last coaches so painted, but despite a number of mid-green liveries which followed, the light green band was retained".

 

The AEC railcars 2600 onwards started delivery in November 1951 and early members appear to have had the dark green, but not specifically mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. Delivery continued for some time, such that later members appeared in a lighter green. See a photo of 2657 at Waterford Manor in the first Tom Ferris colour album, which is standing next to a disused Clayton, still in dark green. The railcar's roof is well worth looking at too! The West Clare Railcars (286-9, later 3386-9) appeared in 1952 and also appear to have had dark green, but not mentioned by Mr. Kennedy.

 

The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean".

 

Mr. Kennedy then goes on: "During 1953 and 1954 various other liveries, all shades of mid green, were tested on many vehicles, but all were unsuccessful". Sadly, the shades and vehicles are not mentioned, but those concerned would have been Buffets 2405-18 of 1953/4, Compo's 2137-61 of 1954 and 3rd's 1372-8 of 1954.

 

The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956.

 

Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, but were in unpainted aluminium. Buffets 2419-22 of 1956 have no livery mentioned by Mr. Kennedy - were they unpainted or green? 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that Mr. Kennedy notes repaints in green started in 1958...

 

Bulleid Railcars 2660-5 of 1957 had unlined brilliant green according to Mr. Kennedy, but Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958.

 

2nd's 1449-96, produced from October 1958 to 1960 were green. Mr. Kennedy notes those produced after 1958 had a light green CIE emblem "a revival of the pre-1950 practice, which was continued until the present (sic) livery was evolved in 1961".

 

Brake-2nd's 1909-13 of late-1959 were green too, as were Heating vans 3142-52 of 1959/60. No mention is made by Mr. Kennedy of the liveries applied to Luggage vans 2549-58 of early-1961, Kitchen 2401 of June 1961 and Compo's 2172-5 of later-1961, but this comment suggests they were green. "Shortly after the release into traffic of the 2172 class compos, several coaches appeared in a new and very striking livery of black (upper panels, roof and ends); golden brown (lower panels); and white (a band just above window level)".

 

He duly notes new Compo's 2176-9 of 1962 as being the first new coaches in the new livery.

 

Mr. Kennedy does not say what livery was applied to existing coaches on overhaul/repaint, but presumably the prevailing shade of green would have been used?

Edited December 8, 2014 by BSGSV

[Kirley]

What a fantastic detailed reply BSGSV.

Thank you for taking the time and research (unless you can carry such detail in your head). I shall copy your reply and put it into table form for my easy reference.

 

One question, did Mr Kennedy refer to the logo's used, one or two 'flying snails' on the sides of coaches?

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely superb and very valuable invitation, bsgsv.

[BSGSV]

One question, did Mr Kennedy refer to the logo's used, one or two 'flying snails' on the sides of coaches?

 

The number of emblems is not mentioned. However, the "Irish Rail / C.I.E. Railway Carriages" Facebook site, run by Noel Ruxton, has recently had a nice photo of three of the 1909-13 brake seconds, apparently just after completion, which have but one snail on the side. Well worth joining the site if you are interesting in coaching stock. The photo is an O'Dea one, now in the care of the NLI (stick inchicore and brake 2nd in the search and you'll find it: http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=inchicore+brake+2nd&type=AllFields&submit=FIND

[jhb171achill]

Generally, carriages carried one "snail", or, as in the Park Royals, none. This was the rule at Inchicore.

 

However there were oddities, both in lining and logos. Anything painted in Cork or Limerick could throw up surprises, for example a couple of old CBSCR bogie coaches on the West Cork system had two snails, dark green paint, but no lining at all. Cavan and Leitrim coaches had dark green paint on original stock, with only one light green band - above the windows, none below. The Inchicore rebuild of C & L coach No. 1 was, like most stock on the West Clare, turned out unlined and with no snail - nothing but the numeral.

 

The West Clare railcars never carried lining or snails, and both shades of green were used on different ones. Done old T & D stock turned up in both Ennis and Ballinamore, with no lining and either no snail or one.

 

On the main line, postal and all-parcels/brake vehicles often had no snail.

 

When new stock was silver, no snails were carried.

[Kirley]

Thanks BSGSV & JHB.

Logos - to be or not to be!

That's interesting that 1 logo per side was the rule yet some preserved stock have 2 logos per side as have the Murphy Model/Bachmann CIE green coaches, was their research that badly out?

I suppose as with lots of Irish Railways matters there is no definitive rule.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Kirley

[jhb171achill]

Preservation is a very unreliable source of livery information, as the majority of preserved locos and coaches have major inaccuracies. In terms of preserved goods stock, I can't think offhand of a single example that is correct - or anywhere near it!

 

Double snail logos were an extreme rarity but in cases outlined above did exist. Generally speaking, liveries were indeed the standard of the day.

[BSGSV]

My attitude would be to apply one snail emblem per side, unless I had photographic evidence to the contrary. As JHB has pointed out, while there were cases of more than one per side, they were rare.

 

Addendum: Having just flicked through Des Coakham's "Irish Broad Gauge Carriages" book, carriages with two snails on the side weren't as uncommon as I would have expected. Mind, most of them look to be older panelled carriages. CIE stock doesn't feature.

Edited December 11, 2014 by BSGSV
addendum

[flange lubricator]

Above is a picture of CIE diner 2407 as built in 1953/54 taken from Irish Standard Guage Railways by Tom Middlemass the picture is taken by G M Kichenside 2407 was converted to a kitchen car in 1969

[jhb171achill]

Beside it a GSWR profile coach of 1900-15 era. Light green line positioned at same level for uniformity, as was the policy.

[Kirley]

I'm trying to gather information on coaches that came into CIE's possessing from 1950 until 1963.

Craven's and BR MK II & III stock followed and is well documented.

 

I've drawn up a Table based on the years coaches were introduced and have gathered it from various sources in books,

internet and the many valuable imputes from Site Members.

 

I started this because I wanted to know which carriages were Bredin's, Laminates etc.

As you can see there is lots of gaps and I looking to see if I can get that information.

Any information in the table is also open to correction.

 

 

[jhb171achill]

Absolutely invaluable information, Kirley, which will satisfy many, many queries here!

[josefstadt]

The Bargain Books shop in Middle Abbey St (opposite the side door of Easons) has a copy of 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages' by Desmond Coakham for €12.99 - original price UK£14.99.

[Kirley]

I'm trying to gather information on coaches that came into CIE's possessing from 1950 until 1963.

Craven's and BR MK II & III stock followed and is well documented.

 

I've drawn up a Table based on the years coaches were introduced and have gathered it from various sources in books,

internet and the many valuable imputes from Site Members.

 

I started this because I wanted to know which carriages were Bredin's, Laminates etc.

As you can see there is lots of gaps and I looking to see if I can get that information.

Any information in the table is also open to correction.

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately I have had no response in trying to fill the gaps on my table so I'll try another approach.

 

I take it the photo below is of Bredin coaches, note no Logos on the coach sides.

 

 

The first 2 coaches in this photo are Park Royal's, again no Logo other than the "Passenger Class No."

Any ideas on the remaining ones?

 

[BSGSV]

First photo:

MGWR 6-wheel TPO (?), two of 1372 to 1378 series CIE timber framed compartment seconds, followed by 2405 series buffet car.

[jhb171achill]

Second photo; behind the PR's, a GSWR suburban brake third, then more Park Royals, though (unusually) in the order darker green. Park Royals never had "snails" due to the bar along the middle. Other carriages generally did with pre-1955 darker green, but when the lighter green cane in, some did and some didn't, as in the Bredins in photo 1.

 

The dark green on the Park Royals above suggest they are among the earliest ones.

[Kirley]

Thanks Guys, so as regards to Logos nothing was set in stone....anything goes?

[jhb171achill]

Kirley, that's an outstanding and extremely valuable piece of research and documentation; I am sure all here will be highly grateful for it, and interested in it.

 

In terms of "snails" on green coaches, the darker green (pre-55) always had them, but once the lighter green appeared, snails were initially applied, but many later repaints after silver stock was being repainted, didn't have them (though they did have the lining).

 

For design reasons, Park Royals never had snails.

[Mayner]

First photo:

MGWR 6-wheel TPO (?), two of 1372 to 1378 series CIE timber framed compartment seconds, followed by 2405 series buffet car.

 

Interesting photo it looks like steam locos were regularly used as station pilot at Sligo into late 50s. 610 (Midland standard goods) is possibly preparing to pull out the stock of a recently arrived diesel hauled passenger in order to release the loco (A Class?) from the buffers. Possibly post 57 very clean light green coaches no SLNCR vehicles visible.

 

The Mldland van looks like either 25 or 27 built in 1908-9 for the Sligo & Mayo roads, another of these vans also appears to be parked on one of the two centre roads. Broadstone built a further two batches of 6w brake and luggage van the last were completed by the GSR as 51M & 54M in 1925.

[BSGSV]

Both pictures are scans from the Keith Pirt book. The Sligo one is dated as 1956. So pre-C class acting as pilot.

[jhb171achill]

The SLNCR stuff tended to be at the far right, probably out of sight in this picture. By this stage, the railcar "B" or the railbus would have been almost the only SLNCR stuff about there during the daytime. Mayner is right regarding the 2.4.0s - they were used as station pilots right until the last one was withdrawn, as late as 1963.

 

The passenger train could well have still been steam hauled in 1956 - steam persisted on some, but by no means all, trains serving Sligo quite late on.

[BSGSV]

The Mldland van looks like either 25 or 27 built in 1908-9 for the Sligo & Mayo roads, another of these vans also appears to be parked on one of the two centre roads. Broadstone built a further two batches of 6w brake and luggage van the last were completed by the GSR as 51M & 54M in 1925.

 

25M and 27M were both allocated to the Dublin -Sligo Day Mail in 1954, so likely that they were still on that in 1956. I'm guessing they had exchange apparatus one side only? Do the two in the picture seem to be the same way around?

 

The Amiens St picture is dated 1961 and seems very late for dark green on the last carriages. Possibly shadow from the station buildings or cloud making them seem dark?

[jhb171achill]

Possible, bsgsv. I didn't think any park royals were dark green anyway.