Brake Standards 1904-1908

[Mayner]

I am looking at introducing as set of side overlays for these coaches. Introduced in 1953 different in outline to the Laminate Brake standards 1909-1913 o 1958 at least two were converted to driving trailers for use on the Dublin-Galway/Westport Cu-na-Mara service later used as Loughrea & Ballina Branch coaches.

 

Has anyone a photograph or drawing which show the guards/luggage compartment of these coaches?

[BSGSV]

I think the Loughrea coach was 1910, from the batch of 5 laminate brakes. Went on to the Ballina branch after closure of the Loughrea branch?

I believe the two driving trailers (which didn't see a great deal of use as such) were put back on main line work and were to be seen on the Dublin Suburban in the 70's.

[jhb171achill]

Correct re the Loughrea coach.

 

It was entirely different internally as it was fitted with bus seats, and (from memory) about 6 first class seats! It also had a storage heater which was plugged into a land line at Loughrea at night to recharge it, because it didn't run with a heating van, and a "G" class loco was hardly going to provide train heating!

 

Externally, 1910 appears to have been repainted from green to black'n'tan about 1965 or 1966.

[UP6936]

I heard somewhere that they once set off with the heater still plugged in

[Mayner]

I think the Loughrea coach was 1910, from the batch of 5 laminate brakes. Went on to the Ballina branch after closure of the Loughrea branch?

I believe the two driving trailers (which didn't see a great deal of use as such) were put back on main line work and were to be seen on the Dublin Suburban in the 70's.

 

1910 the "Loughrea coach" may have been withdrawn before the line closed.

 

A 1904-8 brake standard was used in the last train and they appear in several photos of the Loughrea branch in its final years including one behind a B141 by Jonathan Allen.

 

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20L/Loughrea/IrishRailwayStations.html#Loughrea_20100118_002_CC_JA.jpg

 

There is a reasonable CIE photo of 1906 in Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR, but its difficult to make out the detail around the guards door & look out.

[jhb171achill]

That's absolutely correct, Mayner; it was long gone at the closure. I think, but am not certain, that several different brake standards were used within the last year or longer. I've a photo of the second last day somewhere - must look it out - but it certainly wasn't the "Loughrea Coach" as you say.

 

It had seats clad in the standard mid-brown upholstery used on many older Dublin buses, though not bus seats. I was the only passenger. On the seat opposite me, in black biro, it said: "FAREWELL TO THE DUNSANDLE EXPRESS"!

 

Anyone remember that?

[flange lubricator]

1906 awaiting scrapping about 1985

[Hunslet 102]

Would look forward to an etch for this coach,keep us posted of progress.

[jhb171achill]

I see it was daubed as being preserved by the RPSI... as one of the RPSI carriage brigade at the time, that's the first I ever heard of it!

 

It would have been a worthy mate for a DCDR "G" these days.... G613, at Downpatrick, was actually one of the most regular "G"'s on the Loughrea branch.

[Mayner]

A bit like waiting on a bus Flangelubricators photo of 1906 and some evocative photos of Loughrea train with Bredin MK2 & Laminate main line brakes. http://paddyscrossbetimes.blogspot.co.nz/2013/01/by-rail-and-by-tram.html on Paddy Crosse's blog.

 

The arrangement of the guards compartment with the ducket (look out) close to the end and doors flush with the sides has more in common with Bredin suburban stock of the 1930s than the Laminate main line and suburban brake standards.

 

JHB. Downpatrick already has the guts of a passable Loughrea branch train, (apart from the lack of a toilet compartment and bus seating) a green or black & tan Laminate Brake Standard 1918 would be very close to 1910 the regular Loughrea coach.

[jhb171achill]

It would indeed, Mayner. With a "C" in working order there now as well, it adds to the possibilities, as does the "H" van.

[flange lubricator]

Re the picture of 1906 it may have had a lookout duct on the opposite side ?? if I remember on this side nearest the camera it was fitted with a driving compartment which was still there in 1985 but sealed up

[Mayner]

Re the picture of 1906 it may have had a lookout duct on the opposite side ?? if I remember on this side nearest the camera it was fitted with a driving compartment which was still there in 1985 but sealed up

 

The ducket in the photo of 1906 may have been plated over at some stage before withdrawl, the coaches in the photos with B616 & B220 appear to have duckets on both sides.

 

I have not seen a photo of the coaches running as driving trailers (mules) they only appear to have been used for one season before the Cu-na-Mara went over to a 6 car working with a 4 car AEC set for Galway (incl buffet+ open trailers) +2 AEC railcars for Westport.

 

The lack of a drivers side window would not have been a major handicap with an AEC driving trailer.

 

To allow single manning the guard was responsible for single line staff exchange, communication between guard and driver as by bell signal, rather than showing the driver a green or red flag.

[StevieB]

The photo of the 8.10 Westport to Dublin in the attachment is a personal favourite of mine. The obvious question is whether it is or an AEC railcar plus driving trailer or a two car AEC railcar set.

 

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

I'd guess its a two car set. What intrigues me, though, is what is behind the "A" class beside the loco shed. Looks like a six wheeled MGWR coach, but with a roof profile more normally found in bogies. If so, it's a rare survivor, as only a few six wheelers were built this way and I wasn't aware that any were still about in 1960.

[josefstadt]

The similarity in the roof ventilators on the two vehicles would suggest that it is a pair of AEC cars.

[BSGSV]

1910 the "Loughrea coach" may have been withdrawn before the line closed.

 

A 1904-8 brake standard was used in the last train and they appear in several photos of the Loughrea branch in its final years including one behind a B141 by Jonathan Allen.

 

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway%20Stations%20L/Loughrea/IrishRailwayStations.html#Loughrea_20100118_002_CC_JA.jpg

 

There is a reasonable CIE photo of 1906 in Locomotives and Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR, but its difficult to make out the detail around the guards door & look out.

 

Apologies. I was getting the ones with electric storage heaters mixed up. 1904 and 1442 both had them for the Ballina branch set.

[BSGSV]

I finally located the one and only photo I appear to have taken of one of these carriages - 1908 seen on an IRRS visit to Inchicore on 17th September 1988. I then had trouble finding a scanner that worked. Anyhow, I'm not sure if the attached is any use, but there we are.

 

I haven't found much of a description about the van, just:

"The remaining space of the coach is taken up by the luggage and brake van; this is walled-off, but a corridor at one side gives a through passage...Double doors and a separate guard's door are provided at each side of the coach".

Unfortunately, it doesn't say which side the corridor was on.

 

With regard to duckets, as Mayner pointed out, the photos of such vehicles on the Loughrea branch show they (it?) still had duckets. 1908 has clearly lost its by the end.

 

1906/7 were converted to run with railcars "a driver's seat and controls were fitted in the guard's van, with a lookout window in the end". Given the thread on 1408 and the absence of comment from Mayner and josefstadt on the driver being on the "wrong" side in 1906/7, compared to 1408, this would suggest to me that the van on 1904-8 was therefore on the right (as I look at the photo of 1908). I would suggest the driver's side, at least, would have had the ducket replaced by a droplight - in order for him to communicate with platform staff without leaving his seat.

 

1906/7 were refitted with Commonwealth bogies, which dates the conversion to 1954 onwards. It would appear that the two were not used much and the controls "were removed in 1960; but two years afterwards they were again installed to work the Westport section of the Cu na Mara, providing access to the buffet car in the Galway section of the train; but in the summer of 1963 this express became again locomotive-hauled, and the "mules" are now redundant".

 

The comments in parantheses are from D. Kennedy's paper to the IRRS as printed in Journal 37, June 1965.

[Kirley]

Great find

[flange lubricator]

Found this picture in the O'Dea collection of G613 at Heuston hauling coaches the first coach behind the loco is I think 1906 commonwealth bogies  you can see the marker light and drivers window at the end  which looks very dirty so it may have become unused at this stage .   I think the date(1962) might be incorrect the craven coaches only arrived in 1963??                                                                                                     http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306044 

Edited February 9, 2020 by flange lubricator

[Mayner]

8 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Found this picture in the O'Dea collection of G613 at Heuston hauling coaches the first coach behind the loco is I think 1906 commonwealth bogies  you can see the marker light and drivers window at the end  which looks very dirty so it may have become unused at this stage .   I think the date(1962) might be incorrect the craven coaches only arrived in 1963??                                                                                                     http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306044 

Interesting find! I wonder was there a corresponding set of windows on the opposite side.

[BSGSV]

12 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Found this picture in the O'Dea collection of G613 at Heuston hauling coaches the first coach behind the loco is I think 1906 commonwealth bogies  you can see the marker light and drivers window at the end  which looks very dirty so it may have become unused at this stage .   I think the date(1962) might be incorrect the craven coaches only arrived in 1963??                                                                                                     http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306044 

A narrow side fixed window too, and footsteps on the bogie. Great spot.

[flange lubricator]

2 hours ago, BSGSV said:

A narrow side fixed window too, and footsteps on the bogie. Great spot.

well spotted BGSV two steps upper step seems to be hung from the underframe and a lower step which looks like its fixed to the axle keep .

Edited February 10, 2020 by flange lubricator

[jhb171achill]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:55 PM, flange lubricator said:

Found this picture in the O'Dea collection of G613 at Heuston hauling coaches the first coach behind the loco is I think 1906 commonwealth bogies  you can see the marker light and drivers window at the end  which looks very dirty so it may have become unused at this stage .   I think the date(1962) might be incorrect the craven coaches only arrived in 1963??                                                                                                     http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306044 

G613 looks to be straight out of the Murphy Models box, so 1962 is about right. That particular loco went to Loughrea very shortly after that and stayed there most of its life.

I'm not entirely sure that the second carriage is a Craven at all. It is not that clear in the photo. Though what drew my attention to it was wondering what exactly it was.

You're correct about the first Cravens arriving in 1963.

[BSGSV]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I'm not entirely sure that the second carriage is a Craven at all. It is not that clear in the photo. Though what drew my attention to it was wondering what exactly it was.

You're right, not a Cravens with Commonwealth bogies. A laminate in the 1429 to 1448 range, that would have been "silver" when new and looks freshly enough repainted into B&T.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, BSGSV said:

You're right, not a Cravens with Commonwealth bogies. A laminate in the 1429 to 1448 range, that would have been "silver" when new and looks freshly enough repainted into B&T.

Yes, and timing-wise that would be a perfect fit. There were even locos (A & C class) which went from by-then utterly filthy silver straight to black, without ever seeing a green paintbrush.

[flange lubricator]

On 2/10/2020 at 5:09 AM, Mayner said:

Interesting find! I wonder was there a corresponding set of windows on the opposite side.The first coach behind the loco is I think 1906 , you can see the air horns and marker lights , this shows the coach with the duct  still on the other side . http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307782 

Edited February 26, 2020 by flange lubricator