The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[jhb171achill]

Brilliant, Spudfan!

 

Liverywise, we have might-have-beens....particularly if Ireland had not been divided in 1921.

 

1. Home Rule is defeated and we all stay in the UK to this day: cue laminates, Donegal railcars (if they survive) and "A" class diesels all in BR blue, and both GNR blue locos, and CIE grey ones, all in lined Brunswick green or black. No CDR cherry red, nor GNR blue; these came after 1921 so wouldn't have happened.

 

2. All of Ireland becomes independent in 1921. GNR engines grey. Blue GNR carriages GSR maroon. The Donegal railways all in CIE green, flying snails everywhere. NCC jeeps are unlined grey.

 

And - the Hunslets are as above. If you look at an NIR 111, or their pair of 201s when new in plain blue, I always thought the orange and black schemes looked better. Now, seeing that Hunslet, I'm convinced!

[GSR 800]

Would there even be NCC jeeps?

[jhb171achill]

Probably not, come to think of it...

[GSR 800]

Probably not, come to think of it...

 

Would there even be an NCC? What a horrible might have been...

[jhb171achill]

Well, if Ireland had remained a single jurisdiction, no border would have meant one owner nationally, whether under Irish or British rule. So no NCC, no GNR, no CDRJC, no BCDR, no GSWR, no CBSCR, no MGWR etc...

 

Either an all Ireland UTA (in which case they probably have closed everything but Dublin - Cork) or an all Ireland CIE, meaning in either case standard designs across the island. The entire railway history would have been completely different.

 

141s into Derry, MPD cars in West Cork..... anything.

[GSR 800]

Well, if Ireland had remained a single jurisdiction, no border would have meant one owner nationally, whether under Irish or British rule. So no NCC, no GNR, no CDRJC, no BCDR, no GSWR, no CBSCR, no MGWR etc...

 

Either an all Ireland UTA (in which case they probably have closed everything but Dublin - Cork) or an all Ireland CIE, meaning in either case standard designs across the island. The entire railway history would have been completely different.

 

141s into Derry, MPD cars in West Cork..... anything.

 

But would it be a state owned company, or a GSR type company. Great Irish Railways?

[jhb171achill]

Who knows!

[minister_for_hardship]

Just recalling a snippet from the McNeill/Murray history of the GS&WR, that the board of the GS&W approached the new Irish govt for aid in the aftermath of the Civil War, giving more or less an ultimatum that they were prepared to close down the entire system such were the losses incurred.

 

Wonder how serious they were about that?

[GSR 800]

Just recalling a snippet from the McNeill/Murray history of the GS&WR, that the board of the GS&W approached the new Irish govt for aid in the aftermath of the Civil War, giving more or less an ultimatum that they were prepared to close down the entire system such were the losses incurred.

 

Wonder how serious they were about that?

Could have just been a plan to intimidate the government into funding, like what the GNR did in 53,except (both) governments took them more serously. I think JB might know more about that then me..

[Horsetan]

Just another form of calling each other's bluff.

[minister_for_hardship]

Could have just been a plan to intimidate the government into funding,

 

That's what I thought, we saw this sort of thing not so long ago....

 

Without funding, would the GS&WR (and others) have scraped by, perhaps the closures of the 1960's may have happened in the 1930's instead?

Edited March 22, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[Mayner]

Well, if Ireland had remained a single jurisdiction, no border would have meant one owner nationally, whether under Irish or British rule. So no NCC, no GNR, no CDRJC, no BCDR, no GSWR, no CBSCR, no MGWR etc...

 

Either an all Ireland UTA (in which case they probably have closed everything but Dublin - Cork) or an all Ireland CIE, meaning in either case standard designs across the island. The entire railway history would have been completely different.

 

141s into Derry, MPD cars in West Cork..... anything.

 

 

Possibly continuing direct rule with the Irish Parties holding the balance of power between the Tories or Dominion status with Ireland entering WW11 on the Allied side

 

An amalgamation into 3 large companies in the 1920s followed by Nationalisation in the 1950s under an Irish Transport Executive.

 

The GSWR would have taken over the West Cork and possibly the SLNCR as a logical extension of the Limerick-Sligo line with running powers to Belfast and Derry.

An amalgamation of the DSER, Midland & GNR into an Irish Midland and Eastern balance the GSWR and compete with the GSWR for traffic to Rosslare, Waterford, Limerick and Sligo

 

The NCC would remain under LMS owner ship possibly taking over the BCDR. CDJR remain as it is possibly take over the Swilly.

 

Hard to guess how the loco and stock situation would have played out Inchacore would probably have continued on its merry way, while both the Midland & GNR had relatively modern fleets by Irish standards with little need to develop new types until the Mid 1930s. York Road would have Midlandised the BCDR loco fleet and could have imported bogie coaches from the LMS.

 

Hard to know what could have developed after Nationalisaton would an Irish Transport Executive developed its own traction, copied BTC designs or would Harland & Woolf have become a preferred supplier of locos and rolling stock.

[jhb171achill]

I don't have any balance sheets from the GSWR. I used to have but passed them on to someone else years and years ago. I don't remember taking the view that they were losing money overall - I would be fairly certain they were not.

 

When railway companies here and in Britain went whinging to the government for money, it was usually more likely to be for repair to excess wartime wear and tear, reinvestment in worn out assets and so on, rather than the GNR's 1953 situation, which was essentially a bankruptcy rescue.

 

If the the largest company in Ireland, had been losing money as long ago as that, there would have been little hope for the GNR, MGWR, DSER and NCC. Nationalisation would have occurred probably before the border appeared, leaving two state owned companies once it did.

 

The GSR, after amalgamation, remain solvent. It was only outfits like the Listowel & Ballybunion that were not, and consequently it wasn't included in the GSR. The GSWR was solvent throughout its existence.

 

So how serious were the GSWR directors in their ultimatum? I'd say they were serious in their assertion that they wanted loads of money for new track and the like, but were presenting a "worst case scenario" of closure of services, rather than an actual threat.

[jhb171achill]

Possibly continuing direct rule with the Irish Parties holding the balance of power between the Tories or Dominion status with Ireland entering WW11 on the Allied side

 

An amalgamation into 3 large companies in the 1920s followed by Nationalisation in the 1950s under an Irish Transport Executive.

 

The GSWR would have taken over the West Cork and possibly the SLNCR as a logical extension of the Limerick-Sligo line with running powers to Belfast and Derry.

An amalgamation of the DSER, Midland & GNR into an Irish Midland and Eastern balance the GSWR and compete with the GSWR for traffic to Rosslare, Waterford, Limerick and Sligo

 

The NCC would remain under LMS owner ship possibly taking over the BCDR. CDJR remain as it is possibly take over the Swilly.

 

Hard to guess how the loco and stock situation would have played out Inchacore would probably have continued on its merry way, while both the Midland & GNR had relatively modern fleets by Irish standards with little need to develop new types until the Mid 1930s. York Road would have Midlandised the BCDR loco fleet and could have imported bogie coaches from the LMS.

 

Hard to know what could have developed after Nationalisaton would an Irish Transport Executive developed its own traction, copied BTC designs or would Harland & Woolf have become a preferred supplier of locos and rolling stock.

 

An interesting take on it all. Yes, it's quite impossible to surmise anything, but the above would have made for an interesting overall situation. I suspect that BR / CIE itself or an equivalent would have eaten the lot and created a single nationalised entity about the same time it happened in Britain - and I'd say that would have happened whether Ireland had become a fully independent country or had been part of the U.K.

 

What happened next would have been dictated by whether the government of the day was inclined to close lines or look after them. We could have had our own Beeching, or maybe not.

 

One thing is likely - the artificially brought about lack of railways in the north west wouldn't have happened without a border. This would probably have left Dundalk - Enniskillen - Foyle Road, and Omagh to Portadown open today. Populated by dull tin railcars, of course.

[GSR 800]

Of course one of the reasons the state didn't fund them was probably got to do with the fact that they were building the 400s and the 900s, and after that the 509s, some of the largest locos ever built in Ireland!

[jhb171achill]

Of course one of the reasons the state didn't fund them was probably got to do with the fact that they were building the 400s and the 900s, and after that the 509s, some of the largest locos ever built in Ireland!

 

All railways got a share of a compensation fund, the GSWR included.

 

It's important to remember that the funding requested by railways back then was always intended to be one-off, as the concept of state ownership of railways didn't figure anywhere. Railways were private companies, in which investors were able to buy shares and get paid dividends. A bit like telecoms companies today, or chemical companies. They were run for profit first, provision of service second. It was only when road transport started eating into profits, ultimately making them financially unviable, that ONGOING state aid was sought. And that wasn't until thirty years after the GSWR had ceased to exist.

 

Remember the GSR wasn't a UTA or CIE style amalgamation - it was a private company amalgamation. The GSR remained as a private company throughout its existence, and even CIE was formed in the same circumstances. CIE was formed in 1945, but it wasn't nationalised until 1950, as it became clear that it was no longer financially viable as a business model.

 

The births of both the GSR and CIE were intended to capitalise on the concept of economy of scale, rather than stave off actual bankruptcy. In the case of CIE, the Grand Canal Conpany was financially insecure though. (I've got financial stuff of theirs somewhere in the Catacombs).

 

Within each constituent company, there would have been PARTS that lost money - eg within the MGWR the Achill, Killala and Clifden lines - but overall these companies made money and paid dividends. Within the GSWR, it's likely that some remote branches like Kenmare were an overall drain on resources, but were cross-subsidised by the more profitable parts of an overall solvent business.

Edited March 22, 2016 by jhb171achill

[minister_for_hardship]

In the case of CIE, the Grand Canal Conpany was financially insecure though. (I've got financial stuff of theirs somewhere in the Catacombs).

 

How did CIE get lumbered with the canals? I assume they weren't really crazy about taking them over?

[jhb171achill]

They absolutely weren't, Minister! While the GSR was still solvent and a private company, it was clear that things weren't getting any better for them financially, and the government gave them little option. Obviously, they also took over the Dublin United Tramways Co., though this WAS solvent.

 

Sometimes governments can put pressure on private companies without actually taking them over. However, the GSR directors apparently were being convinced that by taking on these two other entities, all might be good....

[GSR 800]

They absolutely weren't, Minister! While the GSR was still solvent and a private company, it was clear that things weren't getting any better for them financially, and the government gave them little option. Obviously, they also took over the Dublin United Tramways Co., though this WAS solvent.

 

Sometimes governments can put pressure on private companies without actually taking them over. However, the GSR directors apparently were being convinced that by taking on these two other entities, all might be good....

The canal was doomed once railways came to Ireland. Didn't One of the companies propose draining a canal and lay then track on the canal route?

[jhb171achill]

Well, both BnM and Luas did eventually!

 

The MGWR bought the Royal Canal when building the line to Mullingar to save land acquisition costs, and wipe out competition at the same time. Clever move back in the 1840s....

[minister_for_hardship]

The canal was doomed once railways came to Ireland.

 

The (unfinished) Mallow-Lombardstown canal wasn't killed off by the railway...it expired due to the fact that road transport was seen as being more economical...in the 1780s(!)

[Mayner]

They absolutely weren't, Minister! While the GSR was still solvent and a private company, it was clear that things weren't getting any better for them financially, and the government gave them little option. Obviously, they also took over the Dublin United Tramways Co., though this WAS solvent.

 

Sometimes governments can put pressure on private companies without actually taking them over. However, the GSR directors apparently were being convinced that by taking on these two other entities, all might be good....

 

 

The GSR never seems to have been given the credit that was due for some very astute financial management with MGWR financial and traffic people at the helm. Despite the drab image and age of the rolling stock the GSR was actually more profitable than its more enterprising cousins the GNR & NCC. The main problem was that none of the Irish companies were profitable enough to pay a dividend on the ordinary shares to be a worthwhile investment for institutional and mum and dad investors.

 

The GSR had the advantage over its Northern neighbours of a better route structure with longer and more direct routes between the main centres and since 1934 a near monopoly of rail and road transport in the Free State.

 

Given its way the GSR was likely to have been as ruthless in closing un-profitable lines, with over 900 miles of line up for closure in 1939. The make do and mend small loco policy of the 30s may have been influenced by the view that there was little point in replacing locos and stock on lines that the GSR planned to close.

 

The take over of the Grand Canal fitted in with the idea of eliminating a competitor, the canal competed with the GSR for freight traffic between Dublin-Tullamore-Athlone-Limerick & Dublin-thy-Carlow-Waterford with Irish Cement, Guinness and milling companies major shippers, the canal company had a fleet of trucks for local deliveries. In his book Green & Silver LTC Rolt compared the Grand Canal warehouses to busy railway goods sheds.

 

The only railway that was more profitable than the GSR was the narrow gauge County Donegal. Despite it modern trains the NCC was loosing money and the County Donegal, SLNCR & Clogher Valley in dire straits.

 

The nationalisation of the UKs railway and road service in the late 40s was driven more by socialist ideology than actual need the GWR lobbied to stay out, the formation of the UTA may have been tied in with this policy

 

Had the Union continued with the Irish parties holding the balance of power its possible the Tories or Liberals would have remained in power and the railways remained in private hands possibly evolving into transport & logistics companies with publically funded passenger services like the post privatisation UK rail services.

[minister_for_hardship]

The new battleship grey and discarding of the colourful pre-1925 liveries and evocative nameplates lent the GSR a dowdy public image, but they weren't slow to experiment with things that might be advantageous, various steam loco performance enhancing gimcracks, steam railcars, Drumm battery trains. If they only cottoned on to diesel railcars sooner, like the GWR, but the money wasn't there I'd imagine.

 

Steam railcars fell out of fashion quickly, but don't understand the Sentinel shunters having such short lives, they being pretty standard-ish items (apart from gauge) Presume there were plenty elderly locos which could do the same work.

Edited March 23, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[Horsetan]

....The only railway that was more profitable than the GSR was the narrow gauge County Donegal. Despite it modern trains the NCC was loosing money and the County Donegal, SLNCR & Clogher Valley in dire straits.

 

Er....have ye not contradicted yourself there? CDR in dire straits, yet more profitable than the GSR?

 

*scratches head, puzzled*

[Junctionmad]

Irish railway profitably was always a touch and go thing. Even In the very short heyday of pre ww1, after ww1 , the civil war , the encroachment of private cars , buses and trucks , meant Irish railways were not self financing , even if technically in profit , or at least solvent. Solvency being somewhat irelevsnt , given the asset rich, cash poor nature of railways.

[jhb171achill]

The GSR never seems to have been given the credit that was due for some very astute financial management with MGWR financial and traffic people at the helm. Despite the drab image and age of the rolling stock the GSR was actually more profitable than its more enterprising cousins the GNR & NCC. The main problem was that none of the Irish companies were profitable enough to pay a dividend on the ordinary shares to be a worthwhile investment for institutional and mum and dad investors.

 

The GSR had the advantage over its Northern neighbours of a better route structure with longer and more direct routes between the main centres and since 1934 a near monopoly of rail and road transport in the Free State.

 

The only railway that was more profitable than the GSR was the narrow gauge County Donegal. Despite it modern trains the NCC was loosing money and the County Donegal, SLNCR & Clogher Valley in dire straits.

 

The nationalisation of the UKs railway and road service in the late 40s was driven more by socialist ideology than actual need the GWR lobbied to stay out, the formation of the UTA may have been tied in with this policy

 

.

 

All very valid points indeed, Mayner. The GSR was indeed very adept at penny counting; jhb171's senior and senior/senior both would have told us that. Regarding the CDR, it went bust in the 1920s and it was the financial input of the GNR (locos / rolling stock) and NCC (track / infrastructure) which kept it afloat. The LLSR, by comparison, withered.

 

In reality, it is an absolute miracle that much of the network in remote Donegal was ever built at all, and an even bigger one that the LLSR lasted until recently, even as a bus company operating ICRs - sorry, buses. (Or is it the other way round?).

 

Connemara is similar to Donegal. Imagine if that region had had 200 miles of 3ft gauge lines serving places like Roundstone, Rossaveal or Cong, instead of a single Clifden branch which closed in 1935?

 

The Congested Districts Board and Balfour Acts saw that all of the above were built. In reality, the chances of ANY of those lines being economically viable as standalone businesses (as railways were then) was nil. Thankfully, they WERE built, and we enthusiasts got to enjoy them - if old enough - or enjoy the pictures if not.

[jhb171achill]

The new battleship grey and discarding of the colourful pre-1925 liveries and evocative nameplates lent the GSR a dowdy public image, but they weren't slow to experiment with things that might be advantageous, various steam loco performance enhancing gimcracks, steam railcars, Drumm battery trains. If they only cottoned on to diesel railcars sooner, like the GWR, but the money wasn't there I'd imagine.

 

Steam railcars fell out of fashion quickly, but don't understand the Sentinel shunters having such short lives, they being pretty standard-ish items (apart from gauge) Presume there were plenty elderly locos which could do the same work.

 

Absolutely correct, Minister. To add, in fact, to the drabness was the fact that they actually changed little at first anyway, as the grey had already been used by the GSWR for some eight years, and the dark "lake" maroon - which weathered to almost black in some cases - added to dirty black wagons on the GSWR, and very dark grey on the DSER and MGWR - must have looked VERY gloomy. The attractive lined maroon of WLWR locos was long gone by 1925; such locos were either in faded GSWR black or more likely all grey already since the GSWR takeover of that concern two decades earlier.

 

So the new GSR picked the company with the dullest livery of the lot - the GSWR - and slapped that all over everything else! The narrow gauge lines - most of whose locos were varying shades of lined green - the DSER with its handsome lined black, and the MGWR with its even more attractive lined emerald green.....

[Mayner]

Er....have ye not contradicted yourself there? CDR in dire straits, yet more profitable than the GSR?

 

*scratches head, puzzled*

 

Poor proof reading I had meant the County Down not the Donegal

 

1939 operating ratios CDJR 81.85%, GSR 92.41, GNR 98.80, BCDR 103.43, NCC105.98, SLNCR 108.85,LLSR 121.90, CVR 264.64.

 

80% or lower is considered to be desirable for a railway

 

In the late 19th Century 5% was considered a good return on investment for a railway. Of the big companies the GSWR, GNR(I), BNCR (NCC) & MGWR were considered to be reasonably profitable by Irish standards returning 3-4% while the DSER struggled to return 1%.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Mayner

[hassard]

A couple of what if's I have been pondering over.

 

If the 1958 Transport act had put a requirement for CIE to keep the permanent way intact for a minimum of 5 or 10 years before it could dispose, lift and abandon a closed line would it have changed anything?

 

Perhaps the Harcourt Street line might have reopened in some form, if the 10 year rule was in operation. Maybe Mallow to Waterford would have reopened for freight to Ballinacourty but would it have survived beyond 1982?

 

Might CIE have reconsidered some of the lines it shut between 1958 and 67, such as part of the West Cork stay open for freight (Cork to Clonakilty)? Knowing it was still liable for lines for a further 5 or 10 years? (imagine what sort of weedspray campaign might have happened in the late 1960's).

 

If the West Cork traders association court case to prevent the closure of the West Cork system had gone ahead and succeeded would it have survived beyond 1975? If anyone has read Colm Creddons history of CBSCR, there were a number of local attempts to persuade CIE to reopen the line as far as Bandon for freight post its closure which was fiercely resisted by CIE.

 

Also, I recently reread Patrick O’Sullivans excellent two part history “The Farranfore to Valencia Harbour Railway”. He notes that when closure was announced the branch as far as Killorgan was reported to be profitable, as outlined in, Volume 2. If CIE had agreed to leave it open for freight might it have survived the 63 cull survived into 1970s? Another interesting ponder-able, if the proposed extension to Waterville had been built, might it have made the line more economical and could it have lasted longer (I suspect not).

 

I think the reality is not much would have changed. There might have been and argument to retain the MGWR Cavan Branch and integrate the remains of GNR from Cavan to Monaghan and operate it as one long branch line. But in reality it had too many level crossings on the MGWR line, coupled with the dire economic situation of the late 1950’s probably preclude any forward thinking as the future was road transport.

 

Some thoughts for a Easter Tuesday afternoon….

Edited March 29, 2016 by hassard

[minister_for_hardship]

They would have mouldered and become overgrown like the New Ross branch, Foynes, Youghal etc. There may have been partial Cork-Midleton type revivals and perhaps a few more greenways/cycleways for the clearly uneconomic portions.

 

Perhaps some efforts at preservation? Who knows?

 

I see the South Kerry cycleway proposal is facing some local opposition, although I see the press article stating that CIE 'gave away' the land...thought they sold it to adjacent landowners?

Edited March 29, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[jhb171achill]

They would have mouldered and become overgrown like the New Ross branch, Foynes, Youghal etc. There may have been partial Cork-Midleton type revivals and perhaps a few more greenways/cycleways for the clearly uneconomic portions.

 

Perhaps some efforts at preservation? Who knows?

 

I see the South Kerry cycleway proposal is facing some local opposition, although I see the press article stating that CIE 'gave away' the land...thought they sold it to adjacent landowners?

 

They are almost certain never to have actually given land away - that's Kerrymen being cute!

[minister_for_hardship]

They are almost certain never to have actually given land away - that's Kerrymen being cute!

 

Perish the thought!

[Mayner]

A couple of what if's I have been pondering over.

 

If the 1958 Transport act had put a requirement for CIE to keep the permanent way intact for a minimum of 5 or 10 years before it could dispose, lift and abandon a closed line would it have changed anything?

 

Some thoughts for a Easter Tuesday afternoon….

 

Forcing CIE to retain rather disused lines would have been more likely to weaken rather than strengthen the overall position of the railways. Possibly leading an acceleration of line closures and reduction in investment in 63 & 64 as the Board struggled with its legal duty to achieve break even by December 1964.

 

This might have had a positive side for the Irish Economy in forcing the Government to look seriously at breaking up CIE and liberalising surface transport.

 

The option of giving County Councils first refusal on closed lines never gained a foothold in Ireland, Farrafore-Killorglin or Listowel-Tralee owned by Kerry Council and operated by an independent operator would have been difficult if not impossible to establish with CIEs near monopoly position.

[GSR 800]

Forcing CIE to retain rather disused lines would have been more likely to weaken rather than strengthen the overall position of the railways. Possibly leading an acceleration of line closures and reduction in investment in 63 & 64 as the Board struggled with its legal duty to achieve break even by December 1964.

 

This might have had a positive side for the Irish Economy in forcing the Government to look seriously at breaking up CIE and liberalising surface transport.

 

The option of giving County Councils first refusal on closed lines never gained a foothold in Ireland, Farrafore-Killorglin or Listowel-Tralee owned by Kerry Council and operated by an independent operator would have been difficult if not impossible to establish with CIEs near monopoly position.

So.. Re privatise?

[GSR 800]

Actually, what if Irish rail was privatised, into 2-3 different companies,maybe in 2011?