The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[Vellakare]

Mayner: "The German 1000hp diesel hydraulics just don't add up for working heavy loose coupled goods trains single headed over the more hilly sections of the main line or Derry Road"

 

They'd be used in Multiple, in the very same manner as the Baby GM's down in the Republic. Great Northerns engine policy was like the British Midland, only the traffic levels were smaller.

 

'M is for Midland with engines galore, two on each train and asking for more'

[Mayner]

Mayner: "The German 1000hp diesel hydraulics just don't add up for working heavy loose coupled goods trains single headed over the more hilly sections of the main line or Derry Road"

 

They'd be used in Multiple, in the very same manner as the Baby GM's down in the Republic. Great Northerns engine policy was like the British Midland, only the traffic levels were smaller.

 

'M is for Midland with engines galore, two on each train and asking for more'

 

I was thinking mainly in terms of braking power while working heavy loose coupled trains. The WR found that the Warships had insufficient braking power for loose coupled trains, the B101 and A Class were preferred to the Baby GMs which were considered too slippy for goods work.

 

In Diesel Dawn Colm Flannigan speaks about 800-1000 hp locos capable of hauling a 600ton freight train at 30-35mph or a 180 ton passenger at 70-75mph with 40 for the GNR and 16 for the UTA

 

Whether this would have allowed sufficient margin to double head Dublin-Belfast and Derry Road freights before the widespread closure of secondary lines is open to question.

 

While the GNR relied on 4-4-0s & 0-6-0s there is little evidence of Midland style regular double heading of heavy goods and passenger trains. The classic photos are large 4-4-0s with 6-8 coaches on single headed on the climb to Father Murphy's Chappel or on Carrickmore Bank.

 

Its possible some GNR traffic and engineering people may have been influenced enough by European practice to realise that modern fully fitted wagons would be needed as part of an ever expanding wish list to Stormont and Merrion Street.

[jhb171achill]

Here's a very obscure one for ye.

 

The erstwhile Parsonstown & Portumna Railway,which diverged from the terminus of the Birr branch might have end up going to Loughrea!

 

Had this happened, an interesting through backwater route would have opened up. This would have run from Attymon Junction to Roscrea, and on to Ballybrophy, albeit with a Newcastle West style reversal at Birr (Parsonstown).

 

Joint Midland / GSWR operation, possibly.

[Garfield]

Here's a very obscure one for ye.

 

The erstwhile Parsonstown & Portumna Railway,which diverged from the terminus of the Birr branch might have end up going to Loughrea!

 

Indeed, but perhaps it would still have been stolen anyway? Now there's a 'what if'!

[jhb171achill]

Ah, Garfield!

 

Now I've got it. It was you who stole the original line!

[Garfield]

Ah, Garfield!

 

Now I've got it. It was you who stole the original line!

 

You can take the man out of Longford...

[Old Blarney]

I have often wondered how the Island of Ireland might have faired had it not been divided!

 

This discussion (Forum) has re-awakened my curiosity on this matter, especially on the railways of Ireland. So, suppose 1916 and 1922 never happened!

 

The country remained part of the Union. The private railways of England, Scotland and Wales were, as we know, formed into the Big Four in 1923; LMS, LNER, GREAT WESTERN AND The SOUTHERN RAILWAY.

 

What might have happened in Ireland? Could the Irish railways have remained independent of one and other? Would they too have been forced to amalgamated, and if so, what type of grouping?

 

British railway companies had vested interests in the railway of Ireland. The Midland of England owned the Belfast and Northern Counties Railway, the London and North Western owned the Dundalk Newry and Greenore, and held a major financial investment in the Dublin and South Eastern Railway. The Great Western Railway of England had interests in the Great Southern and Western Railway of Ireland and they jointly owned, and operated, the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company.

 

Could it therefor have been possible that the railways of Ireland might have been formed into two companies; one operating all railways South of Dublin, the other having responsibility for all railways to the North of Dublin? Were this so, could it have been that The Great Western Railway might have had the responsibility for all railways south of Dublin, and the LMS for all railways north of Dublin?

 

Perhaps the railways of Ireland formed the fifth company? If not, and we move forward to 1948 and the formation of British Railways, might it have been the case, as in Scotland,(Scottish Region) that the railways of Ireland would have become the (Irish Region) of British Railways?

 

Had all of these thing happened - would there now be a greater amount of track mileage in Ireland, or a lesser amount, or the same?

 

Might the lines to Londonderry from both Dundalk and Portadown still flourish with passenger and goods traffic whilst the Belfast, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Mullingar line could have become the preferred goods route to Dublin from Belfast with a double roads all the way from Portadown to Dublin via Armagh and Mullingar!

 

Would we have had 1960s Blue Grey, Class 47s on Inter-City Routes, Class 25 and 26 or even Class 20s all with 5ft 3in bogies.

 

And, what about Privatisation? Virgin (Ireland). The thought of such a name would, in itself have caused ructions!

 

No CIE, no Golden Brown and Black, no UTA or NIR.

 

Perhaps no railways at all?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Old Blarney

[jhb171achill]

Had Ireland not been divided, two scenarios present themselves.

 

First, we remain under British rule, in which case any or all of the above could have happened. One thing though - either Beeching or Thatcher would have seen off much mileage, given that we have one twelfth the population of our neighbouring island, spread out over up to half its area.

 

Blue and grey would certainly have trod through Limerick Junction and Portadown, probably Omagh too. And I'd say the GWR and LMS would have taken in all but the Midland Great Western and a few minor lines. I suggest the DSER and BCDR might have remained on their own too until BR.

 

The other scenario is that the provisions of the Home Rule Bill were carried out in full, with Ireland becoming entirely independent in 1921.

 

In that case, a GSR style amalgamation of all companies would give been all but certain, with the NCC, CDRJC, BCDR and GNR entering GSR / CIE ownership.

 

Donegal tank engines, GNR 171 and 85 in unlined grey just wouldn't be the same!

[Glenderg]

A GSR like amalgamation would have taken place in 1948 with BR, but that's as far as the fantasy goes.

 

I'd imagine we'd have had mk3 sleeper coaches running cork to belfast.

 

And they would be miserable.

[Noel]

The improvements in living standards, road transport and eventually motorways would have happened either way. Rail wiped out canal traffic, road did and continues to replace most rail transport.

[minister_for_hardship]

 

And, what about Privatisation? Virgin (Ireland). The thought of such a name would, in itself have caused ructions!

 

 

Would be called Virgin Mary (Ireland) so as not to cause offense.

 

I would think there would be two sectors, PaleRail for the Dublin area and SnailRail for everywhere else.

[Broithe]

Would be called Virgin Mary (Ireland) so as not to cause offense.

 

I would think there would be two sectors, PaleRail for the Dublin area and SnailRail for everywhere else.

 

Genius!

 

Perhaps also QuailRail, taking shooting parties to the Western desolate regions.

 

FlailRail, controlling the line side growth.

 

And DailRail, an offshoot of the Luas to Leinster House?

 

The JailRail siding to Port Laoise Prison.

 

And, of course, SailRail got there already...

 

[Maitland]

The 1921 independent socialist government of the Republic of Ireland (flag: a Tricolour with a Red Hand in the middle) was headed by James Connolly, James Larkin, Jack White and Michael Collins, Connolly's renunciation of Catholicism in 1910 having reconciled the majority of Unionist workers. The railways, run down after the Great War, the Mutiny of the Armies and the following Menshevik Revolution, were nationalised (as were those of Britain, France, Germany, Russia and the other states of the Union of Europe). They were organised on a regional basis, with national control of the main export goods and express passenger routes. Each of these regions, North West, North Central, North East, Central, South West, South East, and Cork, controlled its own infrastructure and rolling stock, including engineering and livery. From 1938 Brian O'Nolan was appointed Minister of Transport and outlawed priming. He introduced patent emulsion which transformed the performance of the locomotive stock. The world speed record for steam being set at 162mph by an Achill Bogie in 1947, after he appointed Oliver Bulleid as Chief Mechanical Engineer of the express system, who introduced smoky combustible (real) silver Diesels, turf burners, potato burners, Munster Bacon burners, and whiskey burners. There were steam helicopters for the island routes and donkeys on craic on the canals (should that be en croque?).

[Broithe]

The 1921 independent socialist government of the Republic of Ireland (flag: a Tricolour with a Red Hand in the middle) was headed by James Connolly, James Larkin, Jack White and Michael Collins, Connolly's renunciation of Catholicism in 1910 having reconciled the majority of Unionist workers. The railways, run down after the Great War, the Mutiny of the Armies and the following Menshevik Revolution, were nationalised (as were those of Britain, France, Germany, Russia and the other states of the Union of Europe). They were organised on a regional basis, with national control of the main export goods and express passenger routes. Each of these regions, North West, North Central, North East, Central, South West, South East, and Cork, controlled its own infrastructure and rolling stock, including engineering and livery. From 1938 Brian O'Nolan was appointed Minister of Transport and outlawed priming. He introduced patent emulsion which transformed the performance of the locomotive stock. The world speed record for steam being set at 162mph by an Achill Bogie in 1947, after he appointed Oliver Bulleid as Chief Mechanical Engineer of the express system, who introduced smoky combustible (real) silver Diesels, turf burners, potato burners, Munster Bacon burners, and whiskey burners. There were steam helicopters for the island routes and donkeys on craic on the canals (should that be en croque?).

 

Those were the days.

 

And the travelling post offices were like the stationary ones, you could get bacon, butter and a pint, as well...

[Horsetan]

.....3. During World War 2, consideration was given to quadrupling the Belfast - Lisburn line due to the possibility of very greatly increased military traffic to the American air base at Gortnagallon on the Antrim branch, some part of which at least might have had to be doubled.

 

The idea of a double-tracked / electrified West Clare, and/or unified double-tracked CDR/L&LSR system, would have been intriguing.

 

5. When the 800 class were built, their anticipated lifespan in full front line service would gave seen them operating until about 2000! "Maedb" in black'n'tan, anyone?.....

 

Full front-line service for the 800s should also have seen them able to work to Westport, Achill, Sligo, Limerick.....

 

A double-tracked Achill Line - now there's a thing.

 

 

...Oliver Bulleid as Chief Mechanical Engineer of the express system, who introduced smoky combustible (real) silver Diesels, turf burners, potato burners, Munster Bacon burners, and whiskey burners. ....

 

The combination of these fuels, and the resultant exhaust emissions, also led to experiments with afters-burners.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Horsetan

[jhb171achill]

Talking of might-have-beens and double track, there are many, many Irish railways which were built single track, and remained single track throughout their lives, but bridges and cuttings were designed initially with room for a second track...

[Horsetan]

Talking of might-have-beens and double track, there are many, many Irish railways which were built single track, and remained single track throughout their lives, but bridges and cuttings were designed initially with room for a second track...

 

Some of the MGW route towards Sligo certainly looks like it could have double track restored to it, but would the likely demand ever justify it?

[jhb171achill]

Well, environmental taxes on cars can only rise in the coming decades; fuel, at any rate, will probably be dearer.

 

Also, Ireland's population, currently 6.2 million, is expected to reach pre-famine levels (about 8.5m) within twenty years, and continue rising to exceed it for the first time.

 

All the above should feed more and more passengers (sorry, "customers") into the railway, (who can load and unload them at "train stations", our latest definition borne of the illiterate....)

[jhb171achill]

After the West Clare closed, Inchicore was to have given consideration to converting the three F class diesels into broad gauge shunters, or using the engines in new build shunters.

 

 

 

[Junctionmad]

Well, environmental taxes on cars can only rise in the coming decades; fuel, at any rate, will probably be dearer.

 

Also, Ireland's population, currently 6.2 million, is expected to reach pre-famine levels (about 8.5m) within twenty years, and continue rising to exceed it for the first time.

 

All the above should feed more and more passengers (sorry, "customers") into the railway, (who can load and unload them at "train stations", our latest definition borne of the illiterate....)

 

 

Much as I might like to agree with you , I dont agree

 

Electric Vehicles will dominate personal transport within 10 years, with ICE increasing sidelined, cars charged at home will provide low cost personal driving, coupled with increasing driver automation, expect a boom in private "cars"

freight has been abandoned by IE and will never return as the infrastructure is essentially gone

Raillines and stations are increasingly situated in the wrong places, more suited to 19th century business requirements then 21th

My predictions is that outside dublin rail will be increasingly marginalised and no lower in the public consciousness , the rail closures will continue

The dead hand of the state etc

 

Id love to be proved wrong but I doubt it

[Junctionmad]

Well, environmental taxes on cars can only rise in the coming decades; fuel, at any rate, will probably be dearer.

 

Also, Ireland's population, currently 6.2 million, is expected to reach pre-famine levels (about 8.5m) within twenty years, and continue rising to exceed it for the first time.

 

All the above should feed more and more passengers (sorry, "customers") into the railway, (who can load and unload them at "train stations", our latest definition borne of the illiterate....)

 

 

Much as I might like to agree with you , I dont agree

 

Electric Vehicles will dominate personal transport within 10 years, with ICE increasing sidelined, cars charged at home will provide low cost personal driving, coupled with increasing driver automation, expect a boom in private "cars"

freight has been abandoned by IE and will never return as the infrastructure is essentially gone

Raillines and stations are increasingly situated in the wrong places, more suited to 19th century business requirements then 21th

My predictions is that outside dublin rail will be increasingly marginalised and be no longer in the public consciousness , the rail closures will continue

The dead hand of the state etc

 

Id love to be proved wrong but I doubt it

 

The youngsters of the next 20 years will be writing in this forum thread, " be a great might have been if we had a railway ...."

Edited November 29, 2015 by Junctionmad

[jhb171achill]

Like you, junctionmad, I hope you're wrong.....

 

One thing; if the current infrastructure is more suited to a bygone age, and freight facilities are gone, there remains the possibility of restoring it - though costly of course.

 

We'll see...

[Maitland]

Idling my life away browsing through the Beyer Peacock loco drawings collection at Manchester Science Museum (http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/imagescontact.php?QueryName=DetailedQuery&QueryPage=%2Fhtmlmn%2Fcollections%2Fonline%2Fdetailedsearch.php&col_ColTypeOfItem=Still+Image&col_ColCollectionName_tab=%22Beyer%2C+Peacock+%26+Co.+Ltd%22&Search=Search&StartAt=261), I ran across this "Dublin and South Eastern Railway 2-8-2T": http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/pages/common/imagedisplay.php?irn=15647&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=34625. Order No 01904. Drawing No 93578, 1922.

 

Now, as far as I can see they never got it, and I can't imagine what they would have done with it if they had, particularly just then. I suspect it's a museum miscataloguing- they digitisation shows all the signs of having been done by bored temps on minimum wage. And sadly, unless the original scans held by the museum are better, the images are too poor to be truly useful. Dimension text is frustratingly just below the limit of readability, so I can't even check if the gauge is right.

 

But the thought of a beast like that pulling a big goods train up the 1 in 60s around New Ross....

 

 

Addendum - a bit more browsing and it looks like it just might be related to this: http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/pages/common/imagedisplay.php?irn=13527&reftable=ecatalogue&refirn=30214. Which, perhaps ironically, was for the South Maitland Railway in Australia. No I didn't plan that.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Maitland
adding another link

[jhb171achill]

Very interesting, Maitland - is it possible to work out if it actually looks 5ft 3 gauge?

[jhb171achill]

A very obvious "might-have-been"; when the Ulster Railway was narrowed, and the Dublin & Drogheda widened, what if the British government had said "we're going 4ft 8 1/2, so Ireland must also"?

 

The Ulster's 6 ft 2 was going to go anyway, so everything here bar the odd narrow gauge line would have ended up the same standard European gauge.

 

Cue an Ireland like a giant Isle of Wight with all manner of second hand British pre-grouping stock all over the place. Stanier tanks and Black 5's all over the NCC.... Inchicore never building anything but maintaining into the sixties fascinating but motley collection of old GWR, LNWR and NER locomotives..

 

So what would have we had instead of blue 4.4.0s on the main line? What would we have today on the main line system (probably lots of Mk 3's, for starters!)

[jhb171achill]

....and the RPSI May tour would feature, let's see.... an LNWR "Coal Tank" (ex Howth branch) on the Ballina line, with an LNER 4.6.0 on the main tour....hauling old Great Wsetern and LMS carriages....

 

Ok, I'll stop this nonsense now...

[Junctionmad]

....and the RPSI May tour would feature, let's see.... an LNWR "Coal Tank" (ex Howth branch) on the Ballina line, with an LNER 4.6.0 on the main tour....hauling old Great Wsetern and LMS carriages....

 

Ok, I'll stop this nonsense now...

 

You forget the biggest advantage , if the gauge had happened, wed be building models and reminiscing about the rail ferries and how " one could get on at Kingsbridge and off at Paddington begob"

[Maitland]

It looks as though if the DSER had got that 2-8-2T, they'd have had to regauge (or revert for part of it) to standard, because that's what it was as near as the fuzz of the scan will allow me to determine. If the South Maitland 10 class dimensions are anything to go by, it would have been a bit wide at 9 foot 7 for most of the UK, but fine for Ireland. Maybe they'd have laid a 3rd rail.

[Horsetan]

A very obvious "might-have-been"; when the Ulster Railway was narrowed, and the Dublin & Drogheda widened, what if the British government had said "we're going 4ft 8 1/2, so Ireland must also"?

 

The Ulster's 6 ft 2 was going to go anyway, so everything here bar the odd narrow gauge line would have ended up the same standard European gauge.

 

Cue an Ireland like a giant Isle of Wight with all manner of second hand British pre-grouping stock all over the place. Stanier tanks and Black 5's all over the NCC.... Inchicore never building anything but maintaining into the sixties fascinating but motley collection of old GWR, LNWR and NER locomotives..

 

So what would have we had instead of blue 4.4.0s on the main line? What would we have today on the main line system (probably lots of Mk 3's, for starters!)

 

There might still have been the problems of fuel supply during The Emergency. The ability of Big Four engines to run on pitch, duff, briquettes, turf, etc. is unknown!

 

Dundalk would still have been building nothing bigger than 4-4-0s, but they'd be things like "Schools" or LMS 6'9" Compounds.

[Old Blarney]

Quotation from the Milne Report 1948.

 

"MINOR RAILWAYS OPERATING CROSS-BORDER SERVICES.

 

118 --

 

Paragraph (531.

If steps are ultimately taken on the proposals for the joint ownership of the Great Northern Railway by Córas Iompair Éireann and the Ulster Transport Authority, the minor companies operating cross-border services should be acquired by the reconstituted Great Northern Company."

 

Prior to reading this report, I was unaware the matter of the GNR acquisition had been discussed at such an early stage. I mistakenly believed it was forced upon the respective Governments when the Board of the GNR declared their company was bankrupt in 1953.

[jhb171achill]

Nor was I.

 

Imagine - the GNR, under that scheme, would have acquired the remaining LLSR, CDR (which it already owned half of), the DNGR (which to all intents and purposes it operated in later years anyway), and the SLNCR.

 

Result: not much on the narrow gauge apart from black locos and brown carriages, but imagine the CDR railcars in navy and cream!

 

The DNGR wouldn't have changed, but the SLNCR would likely have been relaid and P or PP class 4.4.0s would have ruled the roost, with Railcar B possibly taken away to do Omagh-Derry locals....

[GSR 800]

I have been reading through this thread a couple of times, one thing that interests me, from the Milne Report, to scrap the 800 500s and 400s and build 50 mixed traffic locomotives. This really was a bit surprising, considering the 800s were only a few years old along with the 400s having only been rebuilt, both had massive investment from the rail companies and also the reliability of the 500s to simply scrap them after so much money being poured in seems a bit pointless. And 50? There was already a surplus of reasonably modern mixed traffic engines, the woolwiches, the j15a's and B's also the more modern D's and the cattle engines

 

It had already become clear that rail traffic was decreasing by the 1930s so I can't really see how 50 locomotives could be justified. 20-30 at the most, but then you would also have the problem of the glanmire road tunnel, which double or even triple heading was sometimes required. This was one of the reasons the 800s were built by being able to climb it unassisted.

[jhb171achill]

A certain amount of it was the need to standardise. Also, the 800s were being increasingly seen as an extravagance, despite their good fuel economy.

[minister_for_hardship]

Why couldn't they schedule more frequent services with shorter trains instead of building three monsters just to carry out this one task?

[jhb171achill]

The idea back then was prestige!