The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[Mayner]

I have been reading through this thread a couple of times, one thing that interests me, from the Milne Report, to scrap the 800 500s and 400s and build 50 mixed traffic locomotives.

 

It had already become clear that rail traffic was decreasing by the 1930s so I can't really see how 50 locomotives could be justified. 20-30 at the most, but then you would also have the problem of the glanmire road tunnel, which double or even triple heading was sometimes required. This was one of the reasons the 800s were built by being able to climb it unassisted.

 

It difficult these days to appreciate that during the late 1940s CIE could have up to nearly 350 locos in use out of a total of 461 with an average of 257 in service on any one day.

 

A class of modern light weight 4-6-0 of similar size to a GWR Manor or BR Class 4MT capable of running on all the main routes, would have made sense allowing better loco utilisation and lower maintenance costs than by several different classes.

 

Rather intriguingly in a similar manner to the GWR rebuilding 43XX Moguls into Grange and Manor Class 4-6-0s CIE developed a proposal to 're-build" the Woolwich 2-6-0s into 3 cylinder 4-6-0s as a light weight version of the 800 Class with wider route availability. Whether Milne (a GWR man) or Bulleid had a hand in this we will probably never know. The main parts to be re-used seem to have been the wheels and tender

 

While CIE seems to have struggled to find work for the 12 4-6-0s on the Cork line it had the opposite problem with overloading of Woolwich Moguls on the Midland.

 

A Class of 50 3 cylinder 4-6-0 with a wide firebox capable of burning poor quality coal would have been easier on the track (and fit in with Bulleids ideas) and have wider route availability than the big 4-6-0s.

 

The 50 new locos would have freed up the large GSWR 0-6-0s & inside cylinder 2-6-0s to replace J15 and Midland Standard goods reducing the need for double heading or the running of overload goods trains. Although passenger traffic was in serious decline throughout the GSR period, freight was more important in terms of profitability.

[jhb171achill]

Spot on,Mayner.

 

I'm unaware of the later plans for the Woolwiches too, as jhb171snr.snr had retired by then, and jhb171snr. had by that stage defected (via a stint on the NCC) to the Great Northern! However, such pans would have made absolutely perfect sense.

 

BR struggled post-1948 with a multiplicity of different designs and locos too.

 

Had steam survived to today, we'd almost inevitably find a steam equivalent of today's locomotive stock - just two classes. There would be a main line type and an 0.6.0 or light 2.6.0. Nothing GSR would be left; the current stuff would probably have been designed and built in the sixties, and now reaching life's end, to be replaced by locos designed in the last few years!

 

Steam survives still - just - in China, where in a country the size of seventeen universes, just two classes handle all steam hauled traffic. The QJ are big, SY small (and thus very prone to slipping....)

[Horsetan]

....I'm unaware of the later plans for the Woolwiches too....

 

There is but one small reference to it (and a drawing) in Peter Rowledge's oul book on the Maunsell Moguls. I think the author made the point that such an engine would have been somewhat heavier than the Woolwiches, which would have led to some concerns about axle loadings, etc.

 

GSR/CIE were always short of money, and expenditure on something like this would not have been forthcoming anyway, particularly if there was an alternative in the form of diesels.

[jhb171achill]

There is but one small reference to it (and a drawing) in Peter Rowledge's oul book on the Maunsell Moguls. I think the author made the point that such an engine would have been somewhat heavier than the Woolwiches, which would have led to some concerns about axle loadings, etc.

 

GSR/CIE were always short of money, and expenditure on something like this would not have been forthcoming anyway, particularly if there was an alternative in the form of diesels.

 

 

 

Exactly, Horsetan. Had the country been awash with money, the entire Irish railway scene would have been hugely different probably from the early 1920s onwards.

 

But it wasn't - Bertie and Peter Robinson had it. In cash only, in brown envelopes, of course, to match GNR brown. And they weren't even there when they didn't get it, and they never put it in bank accounts, which didn't exist anyway, even after they weren't discovered....

 

Any resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental. May contain nuts. Do not try this at home.

Edited January 7, 2016 by jhb171achill

[Horsetan]

....Had the country been awash with money, the entire Irish railway scene would have been hugely different probably from the early 1920s onwards.

 

So would the population statistics.

[jhb171achill]

Very true indeed - and that actually would have in itself changed the railways. Doubled tracked Cavan & Leitrim, and double headed 2.10.0's on half-mile-long goods trains on the Banagher branch, anyone?

[Horsetan]

Very true indeed - and that actually would have in itself changed the railways. Doubled tracked Cavan & Leitrim, .... anyone?

 

More likely extension of the double track on the Cork Blackrock & Passage route.

[jhb171achill]

Actually, that's worth pursuing as a "might have been".

 

Had, for example, the mass emigration never happened, the railway would have been WAY busier, but there still wouldn't have been more coal, ores or steel. Passenger traffic would have been the big thing. Commuter services would be evident in Waterford, lots more in Cork, Limerick, Galway and Derry. Those out of Belfast and Dublin would be very much greater. We could expect a great deal more double track with locomotives maybe not generally that much bigger, as distances wouldn't be greater, but faster. Would there, for example, have been many classes of "Jeep"-like fast tank engines, suitable for intensive suburban work?

 

Electrification, in the absence of huge Irish coal reserves, would very definitely have played a part. If we compare places like southern England, where passenger traffic was huge, and see the extensive electrification of the railways there from the 1920s on, we probably have a more accurate picture of what Ireland would have looked like.

 

Southern electrics on the Achill line or County Donegal?

 

Yeugh. Yeugh.

[Noel]

Exactly, Horsetan. Had the country been awash with money, the entire Irish railway scene would have been hugely different probably from the early 1920s onwards...

 

I'm not sure. Our small island with a tiny population, predominantly agricultural back then, few large urban centres, very little heavy industry, unlike our european neighbours who had many large urban populations for 100s of years to connect. Also there is a difference between economies that have achieved relatively recent income wealth, as opposed to those also who have had capital wealth for hundreds of years (e.g. France, Germany, UK, Sweden, etc), and have therefore been able to invest in infrastructure to support their large populations.

 

Ireland may be listed in international economic league tables as a comparatively wealthy country in terms of quality of life and household income, but compared to long developed economies is still a relatively poor country in terms of capital wealth (public and private). Our population has been and remains very small. (now if that is a good or a bad thing is a separate question and has nothing to do with a model rail forum).

[jhb171achill]

In reality, that's exactly right. Thus, it's impossible to see how the population COULD have stayed high, or become high in the first place.

 

I suppose that's the nature of "what might have been"; some such scenarios could well have easily happened, or even almost did; but it never came to pass. Others, like the scenario painted above, belong in the realms of what might have been, of course, but also in the realms of "what might have been - if gigantic coal and diamond reserves had been discovered"!

[Irishrailwayman]

In reality, that's exactly right. Thus, it's impossible to see how the population COULD have stayed high, or become high in the first place.

 

I suppose that's the nature of "what might have been"; some such scenarios could well have easily happened, or even almost did; but it never came to pass. Others, like the scenario painted above, belong in the realms of what might have been, of course, but also in the realms of "what might have been - if gigantic coal and diamond reserves had been discovered"!

 

Don't forget that the Great Famine had a devestating impact on Irish history, population and economics... including railways. Many peoples' first experience of the then incredible technology of rail transport was as they left the country!

[Broithe]

Don't forget that the Great Famine had a devestating impact on Irish history, population and economics... including railways. Many peoples' first experience of the then incredible technology of rail transport was as they left the country!

There's not many other places with a smaller population now than 200 years ago.

[Noel]

Don't forget that the Great Famine had a devestating impact on Irish history, population and economics... including railways. Many peoples' first experience of the then incredible technology of rail transport was as they left the country!

 

Very true.

 

A big problem though was that we seemed to miss out on the industrial revolution and lacked the industries that expanded other european populations facilitating rapid urbanisation. However it looks like this island will have a population of about 9m in the not too distant future thanks to population growth and migration of labour.

[jhb171achill]

That'll be interesting. Especially with the prediction that up to 40% of all the new jobs will be in the Dublin area!!!!

[Noel]

That'll be interesting. Especially with the prediction that up to 40% of all the new jobs will be in the Dublin area!!!!

 

Dublin has a very small population for a capital city in the developed world!!! (e.g. less than half that of Manchester or Birmingham), but for a small city it takes up a large geographical area due to the low building density and low buildings (i.e. more like a pancake).

[jhb171achill]

Which means people need to get about = rails!

[Noel]

Which means people need to get about = rails!

 

Yes indeed, but the land needed for urban heavy rail is long gone and now too costly to acquire unlike UK, France and Germany who put such rail density down over 100 years ago BEFORE the urban sprawl. They don't even have the 'vision' to make a 100 year investment and build dart underground to Heuston and join the two most important dots!!! And certainly not the money to make Bray to Malahide four track hence no reasonable east coast speed rail link into city for most as ICRs would be blocked behind darts.

 

. . . anyway what's all this side track got to do with model choo-choo trains

[GSR 800]

Anyone hear about transport for Ireland or the TFI proposal advert?

[jhb171achill]

At least they could probably re-do the LUAS Green Line as a proper railway... but loads more trams and tram lines are the only solution.

 

To go back to thread; "what if" the D & B Tramway had become part of the GSR and survived - Blessington would probably be on the LUAS now....

[Mayner]

Dublin has a very small population for a capital city in the developed world!!! (e.g. less than half that of Manchester or Birmingham), but for a small city it takes up a large geographical area due to the low building density and low buildings (i.e. more like a pancake).

 

Dublin is similar in size to Copenhagen, and Auckland. Although there is high rise Auckland is probably more spread out than Dublin, people prefer to own their home in the suburbs, compared with living in an apartment with leasehold and building management issues.

 

Whether you commute by private car or public transport its still a rat race.

[Mayner]

Spot on,Mayner.

 

I'm unaware of the later plans for the Woolwiches too, as jhb171snr.snr had retired by then, and jhb171snr. had by that stage defected (via a stint on the NCC) to the Great Northern! However, such pans would have made absolutely perfect sense.

 

BR struggled post-1948 with a multiplicity of different designs and locos too.

 

Had steam survived to today, we'd almost inevitably find a steam equivalent of today's locomotive stock - just two classes. There would be a main line type and an 0.6.0 or light 2.6.0. Nothing GSR would be left; the current stuff would probably have been designed and built in the sixties, and now reaching life's end, to be replaced by locos designed in the last few years!

 

Steam survives still - just - in China, where in a country the size of seventeen universes, just two classes handle all steam hauled traffic. The QJ are big, SY small (and thus very prone to slipping....)

 

A diagram of the 372 Class "conversion" recently appeared in New Irish Lines basically a 3 cylinder version of the 500 Class with an 800 class cab and double chimney with Woolwich driving wheels, possibly cylinders and tender. The general outline is remarkably similar to a LMS Patriot fitted with small driving wheels.

[minister_for_hardship]

What if...what if the Civil War (and the destruction that came with it) never happened?

 

Would the minor lines that were badly affected have lasted a little longer than they did?

[Horsetan]

A diagram of the 372 Class "conversion" recently appeared in New Irish Lines basically a 3 cylinder version of the 500 Class with an 800 class cab and double chimney with Woolwich driving wheels, possibly cylinders and tender. The general outline is remarkably similar to a LMS Patriot fitted with small driving wheels.

 

Possibly the same one as in the Rowledge book?

[Junctionmad]

I always think there's a massive gap in our records of Irish railways , from First World War to nearly the end of steam. Possibly two wars and a nasty civil war etc meant that uk photographers stayed away.

 

So........ , in purely railway terms, what would we have had if independence and the civil war didn't happen

 

What would BR(I) have looked liked.... ( we'dhave liked the green livery !!! )

Edited January 8, 2016 by Junctionmad

[minister_for_hardship]

I always think there's a massive gap in our records of Irish railways , from First World War to nearly the end of steam. Possibly two wars and a nasty civil war etc meant that uk photographers stayed away.

 

So........ , in purely railway terms, what would we have had if independence and the civil war didn't happen

 

What would BR(I) have looked liked.... ( we'dhave liked the green livery !!! )

 

 

I was assuming that the Civil War didn't happen, that for sake of argument an amicable outcome happened in '22. One could assume that resources that went into repairing destroyed infrastructure went towards bettering the position of the railway companies, although they would still have to contend with mass motor transport. Outside investment might not have been scared away and economic growth stunted during '22/'23...lines like the Listowel and Ballyb would still have gone to the wall (perhaps acquired and relaunched as 5'3'' by the GSR?) but maybe limped into the 1930s or expired on the outbreak of WW2 and coal shortages.

 

 

 

 

If it weren't for the likes of the Lawrence Studio and Fayle (with a tiny cohort of others) there would be a very poor record of Irish Railways pre WW1.

[Noel]

I suspect either way roads were going to happen here and in the UK.

 

On another note, it could have been interesting to know if a small number of the branch routes that were closed due to being grossly unprofitable in the late 50s and 60s might have become economically justifiable in recent decades as our economy developed (i.e. profitable, socially justified, or macro economically justifiable for Ireland Inc). I'm thinking of routes like Foynes, and seasonal tourist routes especially in Cork, Kerry, west, Tramore, Kilrush, etc. Some of these areas are hopping with tourists for the summer. 1 and 2 coach railcars might have been viable on low traffic seasonal branches. We'll never know, those branch lines are gone forever.

[minister_for_hardship]

I suspect either way roads were going to happen here and in the UK.

 

On another note, it could have been interesting to know if a small number of the branch routes that were closed due to being grossly unprofitable in the late 50s and 60s might have become economically justifiable in recent decades as our economy developed (i.e. profitable, socially justified, or macro economically justifiable for Ireland Inc). I'm thinking of routes like Foynes, and seasonal tourist routes especially in Cork, Kerry, west, Tramore, Kilrush, etc. Some of these areas are hopping with tourists for the summer. 1 and 2 coach railcars might have been viable on low traffic seasonal branches. We'll never know, those branch lines are gone forever.

 

Have seen somewhere the theory that if the West Cork had lasted a little bit longer to coincide with the opening of Whiddy Island oil terminal, it just might have provided a lifeline for it.

[Mayner]

I always think there's a massive gap in our records of Irish railways , from First World War to nearly the end of steam. Possibly two wars and a nasty civil war etc meant that uk photographers stayed away.

 

Apart from the Emergency the GSR and early CIE period was recorded reasonably well by British enthusiasts and photographers .

 

From the 1920s through to the late 1950s The May edition of the Railway Magazine included articles and features on Irish railway operation. The May 26 edition included a Rex Murphy photo of a highly polished GSWR 403 at speed on the Dublin-Queenstown Mail Train and an E H Ahrons article on locomotive and train working on the MGWR.

 

Prominent UK photographers such as Henry Casserley , W A Cammell, Ken Nunn, Ivo Peters, J Smith, P B Whitehouse plus our own C J Fry, Henry Fayle, Bob Clements recorded our railways. While companies such as the Loco Publishing Company (LPC)and Locomotive and General Railway and Genera Publications (L&GRP published high quality rods-down photos of locos and photos of coaching and wagon stock.

 

Visiting enthusiasts and photographers were relatively rare in numbers often arranged their visits with the railway companies and got the red carpet treatment, for instance C L Fry arranged to have one of the Schull and Skibereen locos specially steamed after the line closed in order to pull out the other locos to take photos and measurements for modelling

 

 

The LPC & L&GRP photo collections are now part of the NRM collection in York. Groups like the Stephensons Locomotive Society & LCGB have photographs of Irish railways in their collections, while IRRS members such as Herbert Richards and Barry Carse recorded railway infrastructure in the 60s and 70s.

[GSR 800]

If Ireland had joined the war in let's say..1942-3?

[minister_for_hardship]

If Ireland had joined the war in let's say..1942-3?

 

Perhaps more and better quality coal getting shipped in, instead of the coal dust and rubbish that the GSR had to make do with.

 

Station nameboards being taken down/painted over and blackout restrictions in line with the uk.

 

Greater risk of attack, passenger traffic might include children from larger centres getting evacuated to the countryside. Valuable items being removed from galleries and museums being shipped out to safety outside of Dublin. Military equipment/troop trains and perhaps a portion of Inchicore and/or Broadstone turned over to munitions production.

Edited January 9, 2016 by minister_for_hardship

[Maitland]

If Ireland had joined in the war, the Great Northern might have had V2's as well as V's.

[Junctionmad]

Apart from the Emergency the GSR and early CIE period was recorded reasonably well by British enthusiasts and photographers .

 

From the 1920s through to the late 1950s The May edition of the Railway Magazine included articles and features on Irish railway operation. The May 26 edition included a Rex Murphy photo of a highly polished GSWR 403 at speed on the Dublin-Queenstown Mail Train and an E H Ahrons article on locomotive and train working on the MGWR.

 

Prominent UK photographers such as Henry Casserley , W A Cammell, Ken Nunn, Ivo Peters, J Smith, P B Whitehouse plus our own C J Fry, Henry Fayle, Bob Clements recorded our railways. While companies such as the Loco Publishing Company (LPC)and Locomotive and General Railway and Genera Publications (L&GRP published high quality rods-down photos of locos and photos of coaching and wagon stock.

 

Visiting enthusiasts and photographers were relatively rare in numbers often arranged their visits with the railway companies and got the red carpet treatment, for instance C L Fry arranged to have one of the Schull and Skibereen locos specially steamed after the line closed in order to pull out the other locos to take photos and measurements for modelling

 

 

The LPC & L&GRP photo collections are now part of the NRM collection in York. Groups like the Stephensons Locomotive Society & LCGB have photographs of Irish railways in their collections, while IRRS members such as Herbert Richards and Barry Carse recorded railway infrastructure in the 60s and 70s.

 

 

Have these picture collections made it into books or online ?

[Horsetan]

If Ireland had joined in the war, the Great Northern might have had V2's as well as V's.

 

...and not the Gresley variety, either.

[Mayner]

Have these picture collections made it into books or online ?

 

Very little on line

 

Ian Allen/Midland Publishing 'Irish Railway Pictorial" series approx. 10 books published to date incl. C&L, GNR GSR,SLNCR, Dublin, Cork and Kerry. Colourpoint Books mainly Ulster subjects includes GSR Locomotives, Chasing the Flying Snail, Steam among the Drumlins. Individual photographs and out of print books from specialist railway and transport book sellers. Major UK exhibitions such as Warley.

 

IRRS Library and Archive Heuston, SLS, LCGB, National Railway Museum York, National Library of Ireland

[Junctionmad]

If Ireland had joined in the war, the Great Northern might have had V2's as well as V's.

 

Given they had about a 200 mile range I doubt it.