The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[jhb171achill]

Exactly, Noel, they were indeed and for that reason primarily - though speed came as an "extra". Had the class been able to show their mettle on decent track in the 50's and 60s, their credentials as flying machines - and with heavy loads - would have been very well established.

 

GSR800 - it wasn't so much axle loads - it was more the riding qualities of the locomotives and stock (heavier) and - more to the point - overall standards of maintenance rather than the materials used. Indeed, an 800 at speed must have been an amazing sight to behold! I would pay very serious cash for a decent film of one in full cry. If it was in colour, you can have my house, pension and car.

[GSR 800]

If you have not already seen them tom ferris produced multiple railway videos,including Macha roaring out of glanmire rd. tunnel.That pension sounds nice now!

Edited May 5, 2015 by GSR 800

[Railer]

.You would think track maintinance would be better now.Does that mean the tracks now cant hold as much axel load?

 

Track used today is of lighter gauge than the heavier stuff used in the past. Off hand I think the maximum permitted axle load today on IE is about 19.5-20 ton per axle. 800 exceeds that while a 201 just fits in there. A fully loaded autoballaster can exceed the max limit so a load gauge is fitted to each wagon and watched as they are filled up.

[GSR 800]

Why do they use lighter track/gauge?

Edited May 5, 2015 by GSR 800

[Railer]

Cheaper to make/buy in. Suppose the way they look it is why pay more to have more load than you need. Nice to have but not worth the cost. Basically operating within their means instead of the mentality of better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

[Warbonnet]

Why do they use lighter track/gauge?

 

Because there is no need to use heavier grade track which is more expensive.

[jhb171achill]

I know Tom Ferris' vids, yes - but I must have missed that one of Macha!!!!!

 

Now all I need is a decent video player.....

[jhb171achill]

Another "might have been" was a coastal route to Clifden, instead of through the wilds. Had that happened, Galway could well still do with what might today be a truncated line as a commuter route from Galway out to Spiddal and Salthill.....

[GSR 800]

But dont the 201s still overtime damage the track due to their axel load

[Railer]

But dont the 201s still overtime damage the track due to their axel load

 

Yeah they do the most damage alright. I reckon IE will notice the reduced maintenance costs over the past year with most of the Mk4 fleet stored. If they used heavier grade track they would last longer, I think they are starting to install heavier grade track again in the high speed parts of the Cork main line.

[GSR 800]

I know Tom Ferris' vids, yes - but I must have missed that one of Macha!!!!!

 

Now all I need is a decent video player.....

 

Mine are DVDs! Have you seen the one where they filmed kildare for the day. 800s,400s,might have been a 500 all kinds of express locos. a great piece of film

[GSR 800]

Yes i think on the cork mainline they should put down the heavier track. not to many 201s going though, if you take a look at inchicore on google maps...

[Railer]

Yes i think on the cork mainline they should put down the heavier track. not to many 201s going though, if you take a look at inchicore on google maps...

 

There is 12 201s stored for the past 5-6 or so years. They only do Mk4s runs and freight on the Cork mainline. More have been added to the Enterprise pool since the TPWS for NIR requirement around 2010.

[leslie10646]

The GSR were keen to have "flagship" train, hence not only the 800 class

 

The issue of building the 800s is well covered in "Locomotives of the GSR" by Michael McMahon and Jeremy Clements. Worth a read if you can get your hands on one. The pride the 800s engendered amongst the staff probably made them worth every penny.

[Junctionmad]

Track used today is of lighter gauge than the heavier stuff used in the past. Off hand I think the maximum permitted axle load today on IE is about 19.5-20 ton per axle. 800 exceeds that while a 201 just fits in there. A fully loaded autoballaster can exceed the max limit so a load gauge is fitted to each wagon and watched as they are filled up.

 

Modern flat bottom rail is considerably heavier and stronger then rail in the past. Bullhead was typically 80 llb/yard modern rail is upwards of 110 llb/yard. Axle weight is only one aspect , train speed has a considerable impact on necessary track strength.

 

In reality with around 1/3 of a ton between them theirs little difference but a 201 travelling over 100 mph is stressing the track far greater then a 800 class at 70-80 , even taking into account the asymetric pounding that stream gave tracks as opposed to diesels

 

The gar was just as cash strapped as Cie and could do just as cheapskate job as cie did in later years. The was no golden era of steam in Ireland unfortunately , the rail network was always partially clapped out

Edited May 5, 2015 by Junctionmad

[leslie10646]

I'm not certain what the absolute fastest was, GSR; but on test they just exceeded 100 mph on a few occasions.

 

Come on, John .....

 

Maybe early nineties?

 

There are a lot of stories but they seem to be of the same nature as most American world speed record claims with nineteenth century 4-4-0s! (However, I do believe the 4-6-4s on the Hiawatha did get up around 120mph on occasion - oh for a time machine!).

 

In "Decade of Steam", although one observer thought the 800s were achieving a lengthy average at 90mph, in reality, the trains seldom exceeded 80mph! The highest speed Drew Donaldson recorded (in 1940) was 88mph.

 

It's a bit academic, the war ensured that they would never be allowed to show what they really could do, which is a great pity.

[Railer]

You mean due to the quality of coal that was imported to Ireland at the time? We weren't getting the Welsh stuff.

[minister_for_hardship]

You mean due to the quality of coal that was imported to Ireland at the time? We weren't getting the Welsh stuff.

 

Britain kept the best coal for itself during the war, "Eire" got the dregs. With handling, loading/unloading what the GSR got was little better than dust. Inchicore experimented with various methods...eg binding anthracite dust with pitch or maybe cement(!) to make something resembling a briquette. Thus services were curtailed and some branch lines were closed to conserve fuel stocks.

 

The only indigenious coal came out of Kilkenny and Arigna....a running joke was that you'd keep a ton of Arigna coal handy in case a fire broke out anywhere.

Edited May 5, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Junctionmad]

No steam locomotive was ever really capable of sustained 100 mph in the way that modern engineered locos can. Today's tolerances, material science , cad and modern Lubrication are what would have to be re engineered back into Victorian engineering

 

You can read the challenges the preserved railway locos in the UK face in accessing main line passenger track over the next decades, network rail are looking for steam locos capable of upto sustained 90 mph running !!

[Junctionmad]

I'm not certain what the absolute fastest was, GSR; but on test they just exceeded 100 mph on a few occasions.

 

As an aside, one must assume that the track was a good bit better then - without all the yellow machines and complicated procedures they use today!

 

I suspect today's CWR maintained by computer controlled tampers etc is where it is maintained , is at a far higher standard then anything in the past. I wouldn't assume track in the gsr days was much better.

[Mayner]

 

The 400 class were perceived to be way better than the 500s by those involved with them, while the Woolwiches had better route availability.

 

The 500s were designed for fast heavy freight work and would have to be worked harder and would have put up less milage between repairs when worked on fast passenger work than the rebuilt 400s.

 

This might account for the withdrawl of the 500s in the Mid 1950s while some of the rebuilt 400s survived into the early 60s.

 

Probably the most interesting might have been was 1948 The Milne Report proposal to build 50 new standard mixed traffic steam locos for main line work and to scrap the 800, 500 & 400 Class 4-6-0s.

 

JHB do you know if any work was done to develop the proposal?

 

There is a story of Bulleid drawing a sketch of a fireless loco for some workers while on walkabout one evening through the shops.

 

The idea seems to have been to build electrically powered steam charging stations around the system, where a fireless version of CC1 or the Leader could "top up" with a charge of steam. Common enough in industry not sure if it was ever tried on the main line

[minister_for_hardship]

There is a story of Bulleid drawing a sketch of a fireless loco for some workers while on walkabout one evening through the shops.

 

The idea seems to have been to build electrically powered steam charging stations around the system, where a fireless version of CC1 or the Leader could "top up" with a charge of steam. Common enough in industry not sure if it was ever tried on the main line

 

He once set off some unfortunate underling to design a pen so Bulleid could write letters using just one finger.

[Broithe]

I've sent the odd two-fingered letter....

[jhb171achill]

Mayner, I did indeed hear of that, though I can't be certain that any work was done. While it's only a guess, I suspect that if so, it would have been a "back of envelope" job.

 

Leslie - the 100mph was certainly not sustained, but was witnessed very briefly between (I think) Templemore and Thurles. With good maintenance and track, such feats were certainly possible. In traffic, as you say, low 90s were typical maximum.

[Old Blarney]

Bray and Enniskerry Railway.

 

I have a book on this railway - somewhere - It was, I believe, written by Jack O'Neill. The unused track was eventually purchased by the RDS for their sidings at Ballsbridge. I can if you wish, hunt for it the book) and forward the relevant information of the publisher etc.

 

Old Blarney.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Old Blarney

[GSR 800]

The rail tunnel between ireland and england. Been proposed many times but ovious problems (gauge) prevented this. Could they just have a track inside a track(if this is a good idea im putting copyrite on it!)

[Old Blarney]

Never built Lines.

 

Harcourt Street to Sydney Parade.

 

Old Blarney.

[jhb171achill]

Without straying into politics, imagine if no border had ever existed. All the CDR, CVR and LLSR, as well as the NCC narrow gauge lines, plus the NCC, GNR, BCDR and SLNCR would have become part of the overall GSR - though it would hardly have been called that.

 

Standardisation for 3ft gauge might have followed, or Walker railcars on many of the 3ft gauge lines. But - dread of dread - all those lined maroon NCC locos would have been dull plain grey, and the CDR's red livery and the GNR's loco blue would never have existed!

[Junctionmad]

To bring it up to date. Imagine if cie /ir had got the money to electrify the main lines. Now that would have been interesting

[jhb171achill]

Yes. We'd probably have an electric network of - at the very least - Cobh / Midleton - Cork - Heuston - (tunnel) - Connolly - Belfast - Larne / Bangor, and the lines from Connolly to Maynooth, Howth, and Greystones. Possibly Portarlington - Galway too, maybe at a pinch Limerick Jct - Limerick.

[Junctionmad]

The other interesting might have been , was the proposed replacement of Dublin port by a new deep water port of the coast near drogheda , which wax to have included significant rail access

[DiveController]

The rail tunnel between ireland and england. Been proposed many times but ovious problems (gauge) prevented this. Could they just have a track inside a track(if this is a good idea im putting copyrite on it!)

 

Multi-gauge lines already exist (though not here). Sorry Harry

[minister_for_hardship]

Multi-gauge lines already exist (though not here). Sorry Harry

 

We had dual gauge, not a lot of it mind, in Derry and Ennis.

[Broithe]

The interestingly named Maryborough Station in Victoria, Australia, has dual gauge track - 5' 3" and 4' 8½".

 

 

..bit far to run a tunnel to there, though..

Edited May 7, 2015 by Broithe

[jhb171achill]

In the early 1980s, when the short-lived De Lorean car plant near Dunmurry was in operation, there was a proposal to build a siding into it and take the cars to Belfast Port via another siding off the Larne line. This would have ended up being somewhere near the Fortwilliam roundabout, very probably. The acquisition of half a dozen ex-CIE "C" class locomotives was partly with this possibility in mind.

 

Imagine that on a Belfast 1980s based layout....