Mixed gauge

[jhb171achill]

So the last No. 2 was identical to the one in Cultra.

 

There doesn't seem to be exact information on when each last worked, or was officially withdrawn, nor whether the Derry dockside railway was perhaps operated y road vehicles after they went?

 

Does anyone know, for example, definitive information about the last rail=borne movements on this network (narrow or broad gauge?)...

[airfixfan]

The official closure date of the LPHC is 1962 but the steam locos appear to have been last used in 1959 with road tractors shunting the declining freight traffic from 1959 to 1962.

[Chris_w]

On 12/12/2015 at 2:47 PM, Dhu Varren said:

 

Below is a picture of Derry docks with an arrow showing where I believe the original picture was taken.

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/XAW027080

 

Here are also two pictures of the LPHC locos, No1 in what has to be a posed shot with both broad gauge and narrow gauge wagons behind it, at the entrance to the loco shed. Also No3 taken towards the L&LSR Graving Dock Station further along the quay. Note the offset NG coupling on the buffer beams. Note the rope wound round the buffers of No3, used for dragging wagons into parallel tracks.

 

I’m working on evolution of track layouts for the CDRJC (and predecessors) and the whole of Derry / Londonderry.  I too am having a great deal of trouble locating that mixed gauge photograph.  Here’s my thinking on the subject, after studying lots of OS plans and photographs, particularly aerial ones.

 

[airfixfan]

Did an article on the LPHC in February 2021 issue of Railway Bylines with maps and some rare photos.

[Chris_w]

1 hour ago, airfixfan said:

Did an article on the LPHC in February 2021 issue of Railway Bylines with maps and some rare photos.

I Googled the magazine (never heard of it till now).   That issue is missing from the list.   Any chance you could provide me with a copy of the article?

[NIR]

8 hours ago, Chris_w said:

I’m working on evolution of track layouts for the CDRJC (and predecessors) and the whole of Derry / Londonderry.  I too am having a great deal of trouble locating that mixed gauge photograph.

 

 

That tower is very distinctive

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.0033021,-7.321225,3a,75y,149.76h,85.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1GKLFvAuTcg6SuFvGGbKBg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

 

 

[airfixfan]

1 hour ago, Chris_w said:

I Googled the magazine (never heard of it till now).   That issue is missing from the list.   Any chance you could provide me with a copy of the article?

Check their website for a digital.copy?Will also check with the editor tomorrow as well for you. 

[NIR]

10 hours ago, Chris_w said:

I’m working on evolution of track layouts for the CDRJC (and predecessors) and the whole of Derry / Londonderry.  I too am having a great deal of trouble locating that mixed gauge photograph.

A particularly clear photograph here

https://www.londonderryport.com/history-of-the-Port

[airfixfan]

See also Disused Stations website as we have some more photos posted there. Check under Derry or Londonderry Foyle Road station

[Irishswissernie]

This is the site of the posed photo. The building behind the tower in the background of the posed photo still exists and if you look on Google the large building up the hill is also still there. Photo is another Britain from the Air Web site but not so good quality and rather cruel enlargment. Photo is farther down river towards the Graving Dock terminus.

The building with the Tower was probably the Boating Club clubhouse, the road is called Boating Club lane and the large building is now the Magee University Music building. Godfrey Maps do a 1905 reprint of the old 25" to the Mile one which annoyingly just covers the boating club on its upper edge.

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Irishswissernie

[Dhu Varren]

The building marked X and still there, was the Technical College, known as 'The Tech'. The building behind and to the right was Foyle College, still there but the school moved out in the late 1960s.

The building next to the X where the photo was taken, was the LPHC engine shed.

Noticeably missing from the picture is HMS Stalker (known locally as HMS Neverbudge), a submarine depot ship. permanently moored at the two jetties in the top right of the picture. Can be clearly seen in the picture posted earlier by NIR.

[Chris_w]

Thanks for the replies.   Unfortunately, there’s nothing to say where that mixed gauge phot is actually located.    Looking at the photo in question, the following observations:

- it’s facing north with the river bending to the left

- the dual gauge track always had the ‘common’ rail on the landward side

- the building on the left is on the landward side and some of it’s features seem to match where I have indicated with arrows

- it can’t be where the previous person indicated between warehouses and transit shed - not enough tracks and wrong direction 

- there are very few locations where dual gauge track does not exist

My drawings show (early 1960s):

- 1 broad gauge track parallel with the dual gauge track leading up to the wagon turntable on the bridge 

- continuation of this line beyond the bridge has a short section of 4 rail dual gauge track which stops at the fence boundary 

- another track in the vicinity is narrow gauge (see photo looking back at Foyle Road station with the BCNR / LMS / NCC / UTA good depot in front of it).   Note: I haven’t plotted that one yet, because I think it was gone by the 1960s.

 

[Chris_w]

While I’m at it…..

Anyone have photos of the section roughly drawn in yellow?

Got plenty of Graving Dock Station and goods depot, but not what’s behind the platform wall.

[Irishswissernie]

I would go for here just north of the City Goods Depots. Its another enlargment of a Britain from the Air photo

 

[Chris_w]

I tend to agree with you.  Wonder if anyone has more photos of this area?

In hope………

[NIR]

On 6/7/2021 at 1:19 PM, Chris_w said:

 

Referencing in relation to this photo...

Below looks a lot like the mystery location, it's between the two long sheds on the quay

Below seems to be at the corner just north of the northernmost shed

Both taken from here

https://flickr.com/photos/librariesni/sets/72157632817125623/detail

Edited July 7, 2021 by NIR

[Irishswissernie]

I have this one on my Flickr "Ernies Railway Archive"

This is the north end of the long quayside shed with the curved roof. 23 August 1954

 

[Andy Cundick]

It always interested me in how the various items of stock were coupled ,granted the locos had both couplings but coupling chopper centre couplings to three link with the added fun of buffering up with the distinct chance of a buffer punching out the corner of the narrow gauge vehicle.and yet most  photos show both gauges of stock in trains.Memo to self must dig out the Avonside kit.Andy.

[NIR]

I notice the crossways setts seem to indicate a building entrance, another clue to add to the mystery photo.

[Chris_w]

Hadn’t thought about crossways sets and entrances.   If the last photo is the location, then when did the broad gauge bit get added.   It’s a mystery.

[airfixfan]

53 minutes ago, Chris_w said:

Hadn’t thought about crossways sets and entrances.   If the last photo is the location, then when did the broad gauge bit get added.   It’s a mystery.

Send me a PM about the LPHC?

[Chris_w]

Sorry, what’s a PM?

[Galteemore]

Personal messenger. Click on Airfixfan’s name and it should come up as an option - an icon of an envelope ….

Edited July 8, 2021 by Galteemore

[Chris_w]

Thanks Galteemore

[Irishswissernie]

I don't think my photo is the location, it is just another one of the general area, however I reckon the crane being used to load the bell photo is the same crane that is in the background of mine.

[Chris_w]

On 7/7/2021 at 11:34 AM, Chris_w said:

Thanks for the replies.   Unfortunately, there’s nothing to say where that mixed gauge phot is actually located.    Looking at the photo in question, the following observations:

- it’s facing north with the river bending to the left

- the dual gauge track always had the ‘common’ rail on the landward side

- the building on the left is on the landward side and some of it’s features seem to match where I have indicated with arrows

- it can’t be where the previous person indicated between warehouses and transit shed - not enough tracks and wrong direction 

- there are very few locations where dual gauge track does not exist

My drawings show (early 1960s):

- 1 broad gauge track parallel with the dual gauge track leading up to the wagon turntable on the bridge 

- continuation of this line beyond the bridge has a short section of 4 rail dual gauge track which stops at the fence boundary 

- another track in the vicinity is narrow gauge (see photo looking back at Foyle Road station with the BCNR / LMS / NCC / UTA good depot in front of it).   Note: I haven’t plotted that one yet, because I think it was gone by the 1960s.

 

Should have included key.

Don’t know.   Need more photos……

[NIR]

19 hours ago, Chris_w said:

It’s a mystery

As well as an entrance out of sight to the left, as indicated by the crossways setts, I think we can assume the tracks were further apart before converging to round a corner of some sort to the left

(see 03:22 and 06:10)

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by NIR

[NIR]

Building entrance, corner, converging tracks.

I'm even seeing the track formation right there at the corner

https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/XAW027080

Edited July 8, 2021 by NIR

[Chris_w]

Maybe….

Done some drawing / photo comparisons….  What do you think?

Close up of track drawing….

[airfixfan]

LPHC officially closed by end of August 1962. Little used after 1959 and was sent some photos of LPHC last week from 1960. All LPHC lines were mixed Gauge track up to the LPHC boundary posts. Have many photos of LPHC lines alongside Foyle on the East bank of the river.

[Chris_w]

Hi,  would you be willing to share them online or privately?

[airfixfan]

Private yes as some are for a future book I am working on for next year

Edited July 8, 2021 by airfixfan

[Chris_w]

LOCATION SOLVED………
 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Chris_w
Update

[Irishswissernie]

On 7/7/2021 at 12:38 PM, Irishswissernie said:

I would go for here just north of the City Goods Depots. Its another enlargment of a Britain from the Air photo

 

Thanks for confirmation of where I thought it was

[Chris_w]

Thanks.    However, it’s not another Britain from the Air photo.   There aren’t a huge number of those and most are limited to NI.   The best source of other aerial photos is found on the website of the National Library of Ireland.   I think I’ve only found ~4 aerial photos from BfA.   Most of the rest are NLI.  There are also some newspaper ones (based in Belfast) - can’t remember the name off hand.