D&B/County Donegal Drewry Railcar Interior Query

[RichL]

Hi there,

 

Does anyone know the interior layout for this car, preferably before it became a trailer, please?

 

With all that glass, the interior would be very obvious in a model. I want to get it right, if possible.

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

Rich

[WRENNEIRE]

Anything in Cultra that might help. there's a load of Donegal stock there

[RichL]

Unfortunately, I am the wrong side of the Irish Sea, but a visit there might yet be necessary. Thanks for your suggestion.

[jhb171achill]

I would strongly advise a visit.

 

If I recall correctly, it's bus style 2 + 2.

[Broithe]

Perhaps somebody visiting could be delegated to obtain the necessary pictures?

[RichL]

I have now been told there is a photo in 'The County Donegal Railways Companion. I will get hold of a copy and see what I can find.

[jhb171achill]

Rich, are you planning to make it in D & B style, CDRJC self propelled, or later (final) state as a CDR trailer?

[Andy Cundick]

Just checked the diagram book but no dice,CDR Companion has a good shot of the interior Page 34.She seated 40 which assumes 10 seats aside,i assume it was the same when she was demotored.It causes a few raised eyebrows when the motor version is seen towing the trailer version.Must get on and do the 5'3"version to complete the setcan't quite justify it on either Valencia or Courtmacsherry,but what the hell Andy.

[RichL]

Rich, are you planning to make it in D & B style, CDRJC self propelled, or later (final) state as a CDR trailer?

 

Hi

 

I am really interested in whatever the original layout was, but any history of changes, or details of its later state might help. I guess the railcar was refurbished inside at one point, because the recent seating looks like it is out of a bus or something, from what I have been told.

[RichL]

Just checked the diagram book but no dice,CDR Companion has a good shot of the interior Page 34.She seated 40 which assumes 10 seats aside,i assume it was the same when she was demotored.It causes a few raised eyebrows when the motor version is seen towing the trailer version.Must get on and do the 5'3"version to complete the setcan't quite justify it on either Valencia or Courtmacsherry,but what the hell Andy.

 

I now have the CDR companion book on order, so at least I will get sight of one interior shot. Three versions sounds very good!

[jhb171achill]

Rich, I will consult senior's notes to see what it was like originally, ie on the D & B. What I know myself is confined to the external appearance, namely the livery; a very dark green (lower) and white (upper). Lettering was in shaded gold. Roof probably grey.

 

Internal seating was almost certainly dual direction reversible tram-style seating. I'll try to find out what material the seats were covered in.

[Andy Cundick]

The Blessington Book quotes the seating as 40 so no change my guess would be that the seat frames weren't changed just reupholstered.i can't imagine Henry Forbes spending money on replacing seating.Andy.

[RichL]

Thanks for that JHB/Andy. I am puzzled by this car for several reasons. At first it all seemed quite simple, but the more I look into it the more questions I have!

 

For instance, a friend showed me an interior drawing of one of the West Clare Drewrys which I thought would be all 2+2 seating with a central aisle, but it seems it was not all that way. There were bench seats at the ends facing into the car and two rows of double length seats just in from one of the doors were back to back, covering the engine. Ok this was a 4-wheel railcar built slightly later, but it makes you think!

 

The D&B car also has an odd entrance arrangement with the recessed doors, which doesn't quite seem to fit with a regular 2+2 arrangement somehow.

 

I guess the engine was at one end, between the driver and the passenger entrance, but I can't be sure. Why did they need a separate door for the driver? Was it because the engine was in the way? Was there a driver's door originally at both ends? It is so easy to make assumptions!

 

There was a family of these 2-4-2 railcars, with one for the Kalka Simla railway and several for Tasmania. There were excellent large scale detailed drawings of the Kalka Simla car published in 'The Engineer', including a sectional plan of the chassis showing the controls and other details. This is a smaller vehicle than the D&B one and had a semi-open body supplied by Drewry, with seating right across the car and separate doors for each row of seats. The driver and engine were in a separate compartment at the front. The Tasmanian ones were all bodied in Tasmania, but they too had a quite large separate compartment for the driver and the engine. The D&B car had a smaller engine than the others.

 

If the worst comes to the worst I will have to brainwash myself, or at least pretend I didn't find all these things out - that way I can model the railcar with all 2+2 seating with a clear conscience

[jhb171achill]

It would appear that it was almost definitely 2 + 2, from what I can decipher in the Catacombs. Blue upholstery a one stage, and possibly brown originally.

[RichL]

Thanks for that additional information. I was guessing that the seating would originally have been wooden slatted reversible seats. Wrong again! This railcar must have seemed really luxurious compared with the double deck loco hauled trailers on the D&B!

 

 

I was trying to work out how I could identify which end was which from photos. It is easy once the roof rack appears, but not before - except perhaps when the starting handle is visible. I eventually realised that the medium sized saloon windows are not the same size and are assembled in a different order on each side of the railcar. I worked it out by correcting the perspective in Photoshop.

 

Basically window A is shorter than window B on this side of the car.

 

On the other side of the car, windows A and B are the other way round - i.e the narrower pane (A) is on the right, next to the very narrow one. Window A plus the narrow window at the RHS plus the window frame width is the same length as one of the big panes. It shows most obviously with the toplights.

 

I have double checked this with several photos and I am pretty confident I am right. I suppose the only way to prove it absolutely would be to measure the vehicle itself.

 

The width of window B is about half way between between window A and the wider panes.

 

I really ought to find something meaningful to do in life

[RichL]

I re-read the IRS Drewry book details on the D&B railcar. The specification given to Drewry included a requirement to carry 35 passengers. Was the seating capacity changed during construction of the body, or later I wonder?

[jhb171achill]

Not sure.... but..... it IS possible the thing had slatted wooden seats initially, or at least at some stage. Such were common in vehicles of that type.

 

Incidentally, where did that photo come from? One of the best I've seen of it in original style. Lining, by the way, was yellow, I think a pale shade but not sure.

 

Looks like it's taken at the Terenure terminus.

[RichL]

Thanks JHB

 

I found the photo somewhere on the web a year or three ago. Sorry, but I can't remember where. Probably found it completely by accident, as I often do when looking for something totally different

 

The photo is quite possibly taken on delivery as everything looks brand new.

Edited December 4, 2016 by RichL

[jhb171achill]

It does indeed look new. If anyone else knows, I'd be interested in the origin of that picture as I'm interested to see what way Terenure terminus looked inside.

[RichL]

There are a few photos of Terenure in Aidan Cruise's book https://localstudies.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/the-dublin-and-blessington-steam-tram/

 

The quality of reproduction of the photos is rather poor though.

 

You can see a track plan by browsing the Irish OS maps site and download a PDF if required. http://www.osi.ie

 

In general there seem to be very few photos of any of the line - especially bearing in mind that it was close to Dublin and a real curiosity! Maybe it just closed too soon.

Edited December 4, 2016 by RichL

[jhb171achill]

Yes, rich....and it served an area which THEN was rural, though now largely built up. A fascinating line, neither tram nor railway, a sort of hybrid. Senior recalled it as being painfully slow, and his experience was of one of the two 4 wheeled railcars which were the nippiest things on the line...

 

The "nickname" it is said to have acquired was possibly posthumous; "the longest graveyard in Ireland", as Senior never heard that term until some years after it closed.

 

That book is an excellent read - I bought a copy when it came out.

[RichL]

The specification for the Drewry ralcar apparently required the design to achieve 6mph over the max. gradient of 1 in 17 and a max. speed of 16mph on the level. Not very ambitious, but I assume the line must have been subject to severe speed restrictions with it running next to a road nearly all the way (officially, anyway!)

[jhb171achill]

It was - but probably the same limit (12-15 mph) as applied to the roadside sections of the Cavan & Leitrim's Arigna branch, and the Castlederg and Schull lines. The maximum gradient was indeed extremely severe for an adhesion railway; this is often overlooked and must have made steam working very difficult, slow and interesting to the observer.

 

Britain often mentions a colliery line somewhere as the steepest railway in these islands, and it's about 1:22 from what I recall. This section of the D & B was way steeper, and I am sure must accurately hold this record. Is it even possible to have an adhesion worked line steeper than that? A lot of this section was curved too. Much steeper and it could have been Ireland's only rack line!

[RichL]

There was a 1:14 gradient on the Cromford & High Peak Railway in Derbyshire, England but it was only approached at a rush and with just a couple of wagons. This was originally a rope worked incline.

 

I finally found a side elevation photo of the Drewry, though in unpowered trailer condition. It confirms my suspicions that the Beattie drawing is wrong about the width of the different saloon windows. It also suggests there may only have been a driver's door at one end. That implies to me that the engine was situated next to the driver at one end of the vehicle, unlike the West Clare 4-wheel railcars where the engine was underneath seats in the passenger saloon. Only a guess, but it is looking more likely than before.

[Broithe]

There was a 1:14 gradient on the Cromford & High Peak Railway in Derbyshire, England but it was only approached at a rush and with just a couple of wagons. This was originally a rope worked incline.

 

 

The sign says Speed Unrestricted - code for Give It All You've Got....

Edited December 5, 2016 by Broithe

[DiveController]

Chuckled when I saw the sign, Code for ..., indeed:ROFL:

[Mayner]

It was - but probably the same limit (12-15 mph) as applied to the roadside sections of the Cavan & Leitrim's Arigna branch, and the Castlederg and Schull lines. The maximum gradient was indeed extremely severe for an adhesion railway; this is often overlooked and must have made steam working very difficult, slow and interesting to the observer.

 

Britain often mentions a colliery line somewhere as the steepest railway in these islands, and it's about 1:22 from what I recall. This section of the D & B was way steeper, and I am sure must accurately hold this record. Is it even possible to have an adhesion worked line steeper than that? A lot of this section was curved too. Much steeper and it could have been Ireland's only rack line!

 

 

1:14 may be quote as a maximum grade quote by the Drewry Car Company rather than the ruling grade on the Blessington Line.

 

1:14 would probably have been beyond the capability of a single steam loco with a heavy mixed train north bound train on steep twisty final approach to Crooksling from Brittas. The climb from Embankment to Crooksling was a lot longer but not as steep or twisty.

 

In his book Fayle talks of the mixed train loading up to 2 coaches and 15 wagons. A lot of the goods traffic was sand from Doran’s Pit in Blessington and livestock for destinations on the DUTC system.

 

My father had vague recollections of the Tramway with its Model T Railcars. People who lived in the area around Crooksling would borrow a p.w. trolley and coast down to Brittas or Embankment for a Saturday night dance party.

 

The fate of the D&BST & Clogher Valley are remarkably similar although the D&BST seems to have become the more decrepit. Both lines were built with Baronial Guarantees and were taken over by the County Councils when the original companies went bankrupt, both required special legislation to close the line and compensate the shareholders and employees when the railways closed.

 

The DBST turned to internal combustion long before the CVR experimenting with petrol electric railcars in the WW1 era and set the way for the Donegal with its Ford railcars & Drewry car in the 1920s

[RichL]

The D&B wrote to Drewry specifically mentioning the requirement for a railcar to get up their steepest gradient which was 1:17 for a distance of 50 yards. They sent a full gradient profile with the letter.

 

The 1:14 gradient is on the line in Derbyshire - nothing to do with the D&B

[jhb171achill]

The Derbyshire one was exactly the one I had in mind, but I had thought it was about 1:22.

 

I think a few other British industrial lines also had exceptionally vicious graduents....

 

Working model rope incline, anyone? Derreenavoggy?

[RichL]

Hopton Incline 457 yards (418 m) 1 in 14 gradient

 

Taken from Wikipedia, but confirmed elsewhere

[David Holman]

Hopton 1:14 is what I have always understood. The unlimited speed sign a bit tongue in cheek, methinks, given the locos available. North London 0-6-0T, Webb Radial 0-4-2T and, later, Austerity 0-6-0T. Doubt if any of these could get beyond 50mph...

[jhb171achill]

Hopton 1:14 is what I have always understood. The unlimited speed sign a bit tongue in cheek, methinks, given the locos available. North London 0-6-0T, Webb Radial 0-4-2T and, later, Austerity 0-6-0T. Doubt if any of these could get beyond 50mph...

 

 

....or 50cm per hour in grades like that!

[RichL]

I have thought a lot about the D&B Drewry railcar over the last few days (as well as steep inclines). My gut feeling, based on the layout of the other 2-4-2 Drewrys is that the engine on the D&B version was probably at one end, above floor level and more or less on the centre line of the chassis. There wasn't room under the chassis. The only other place it might have been is under seats in the passenger saloon, like the West Clare railcars. Either way, a central aisle all the way along the passenger saloon would not be practicable with the engine in place. The aisle would somehow have to shift sideways to get around it.

 

Here is just one thought on how the interior could have been laid out originally - making sense of my guess on the engine position, the size and position of the doors and the position of the partitions behind the driving 'cabs'.

 

 

Of course, once the engine was removed there would no longer be an obstruction, so full 2 + 2 seating with a continuous central aisle would be more practicable. My theory would only work if the current interior is not quite original. It has already been pointed out to me that it is unlikely the County Donegal would spend money on refurbishing the railcar, so I could well be completely wrong.

[jhb171achill]

The CDR did indeed avoid any expenditure when it could. While I can't be certain that the seats it has now are the original ones, it's a fair assumption that whatever it DID have on arrival in Stranorlar would have stayed put unless re-seating was necessary.

 

the engine of the thing WAS at one end as you depict, but I am not sure about bench seating.

[Mayner]

Thanks for that additional information. I was guessing that the seating would originally have been wooden slatted reversible seats. Wrong again! This railcar must have seemed really luxurious compared with the double deck loco hauled trailers on the D&B!

 

 

I was trying to work out how I could identify which end was which from photos. It is easy once the roof rack appears, but not before - except perhaps when the starting handle is visible. I eventually realised that the medium sized saloon windows are not the same size and are assembled in a different order on each side of the railcar. I worked it out by correcting the perspective in Photoshop

 

 

I really ought to find something meaningful to do in life

 

There are two photos of the car in operation on the Donegal in Irish Narrow Gauge A Pictorial History. The photos were taken before the radiators were re-located to the roof. Photos were taken before and after narrow gauge centre couplers and safety chains were fitted to the A or motor end. In both photos the starting handle is centred in the headstock channel. Interestingly the A end is fitted with a model T style radiator immediately above the starting handle & a cylindrical header tank after the coupler was fitted.

 

Definitely worth a visit to Cultra or a call to the Curator for information on the chassis.

[RichL]

Thanks again for all the help and advice - and confirmation of the engine position. I have good drawings for the Kalka-Simla 2-4-2 railcar which must have had a lot in common, including a wealth of detail of the underframe and controls. They might help me build up an good picture of the details - thoughthis car was slightly smaller and had a slightly larger engine.

 

The difficulty is that Drewry only supplied the chassis, so the internal layout of the body could have been a one-off, with no resemblance to anything else. The body looks very tram-like. Not sure if the bodybuilder was copying a tram style, or actually was a tram body builder using standard parts. It seems to be unknown who built it. The windows do bear a close resemblance to the parts in a Kiel Kraft Birmingham tram kit in 4mm scale, so I may cannibalise one of those for my model.

 

The body is peculiar with the narrow entrances and the deeper cabs - and the engine would have to protrude into the passenger compartment to some extent, but would comfortably fit under seating. If I were designing a railcar body for 2 + 2 seating all along, I wouldn't lay the body out quite that way. But then, who knows what constraints and opinions gave us that design anyway

 

I am in no rush to start work on the model as I have lots of other things on my plate at the moment, including organising my mother's 90th birthday. Plenty of time to think and possibly unearth other information.

 

A visit to Cultra would be very expensive - I would probably have to try and make the flight worthwhile by staying in Ireland for a holiday or something. Maybe next year, as there look to be lots of interesting things to see there. My worry would be that, short of dismantling some of the interior, much of what I would be interested in would be invisible under the flooring.