Brexit and the Irish Railway Modeller

[Junctionmad]

This is not anything political , so lets not discuss it from that perspective

 

I was down collecting a parcel from AddressPal ( and Post ) and thinking that all these " new" handy carriage systems that suit Internet purchasing will get wiped out ( if) Vat at point of entry gets reintroduced

 

I remember when the postman used to come looking for the " VAT " when he delivered parcels etc , Surely we won't be going back to that ( in fact we cant as the postman won't accept money anymore )

 

It must be sobering for people like NightLine to watch, in effect, their business model for Parcel Motel blow up in their face

 

2019 will not be great for railway modellers here , given how much we rely on the UK for " Bits ", especially since Model shops are virtually extinct

 

??????

[Garfield]

Handy Revenue guide in PDF format on 'Importing Goods Through the Post': http://www.revenue.ie/en/customs/leaflets/postal-guide.pdf

 

Consignments of Negligible Value (€22)

Consignments not exceeding an intrinsic value of €150 may be imported from outside the EU without payment of Customs Duty. (Intrinsic value is the value of the goods alone and does not include insurance and freight). Consignments not exceeding a total customs value of €22 may be imported without payment of VAT. (Customs value or CIF value is the value of the goods plus insurance and freight (which includes postage costs).

 

By rights, UK retailers should be deducting VAT on sales to Ireland post-Brexit. Given that the standard rate of VAT in the UK is in the same ballpark as ours (theirs is 20%, ours is 23%), the difference between their advertised price and what Irish customers will pay won't be all that much. With the value of Sterling expected to fall further, it may even work out better.

 

Also, given that AddressPal, Parcel Motel, etc. require the user to travel to the pick-up point, having to go to the post office to collect the parcel and pay any VAT or import duty due on the item isn't really adding any additional delay.

 

Parcel Motel already handle parcels originating outside the EU. The customer just has to pay the duties before it will be delivered to the chosen destination: https://parcelmotel.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/206194429-Can-I-purchase-goods-from-outside-the-EU-using-my-Parcel-Motel-Address-

Edited January 18, 2017 by Garfield

[jhb171achill]

But I wonder, WILL UK suppliers deduct the British VAT?

 

Any that don't - boycott them!

[Broithe]

But I wonder, WILL UK suppliers deduct the British VAT?

 

Any that don't - boycott them!

 

It will be very necessary to have your wits about you - there will be opportunities for people to 'work the system' and the red tape will increase, rather than decrease, I suspect.

 

There will be no requirement for the UK to keep a VAT-style system, they could go back to multiple rate purchase tax arrangements, where it would be very difficult to know what was really going on.

 

It all remains to be seen.

 

Watchfulness will be required for a long time to come.

[jhb171achill]

I think overall, Broithe. We are all well aware of how, PRE-Brexit, certain retail multiples charge more for the same goods in Dundalk than they do a few miles up the road in Newry, in circumstamces where their costs are demonstrably NOT higher. Pure and cynical profiteering.

 

As you say, watchfulness will be required for a long time. For once, I hope that people here all club together to send a message to anyone trying to rip us off that we will boycott them and spread the word.

 

Maybe, possibly, opportunities for one of our model shops to do a Hattons-type set-up? Possibly, possibly not; we have an extremely small market compared with the 60+ million of the UK. We'll see.

[Garfield]

But I wonder, WILL UK suppliers deduct the British VAT?

 

Any that don't - boycott them!

 

All the main UK retailers already deduct VAT for non-EU sales, as far as I know. It's still worth being vigilant but any failure to deduct VAT is more likely to be due to systems awaiting updating in the post-Brexit aftermath than dodgy business practice.

[Broithe]

The only real vote you have is the pound/euro in your pocket. It is everybody's civic duty to decide whether or not they wish to support dodgy behaviour, should it happen. Market forces will prevail.

[Noel]

I have increasingly been buying modelling gear from Germany these past two years because of better pricing. Brexit won't effect that, however local model shops may need to look at replacing current UK Channel sources with European alternatives, thus avoiding possible tariffs and vat issues. However for modellers of British outline then Hornby, Bachmann, et al are going to get more expensive.

[Junctionmad]

Remember , any uk retailer dispatching goods to a uk ( or Ni ) address will include any uk sales taxes ie their vat , on Brexit you will then pay Irish vat on top of uk sakes tax, whereas today you do not

 

That in itself will ruin address pal and parcel motel. A buyer here will be subject to currency margins , double vat and a custom clearance charge

 

U.K. Reseller can only deduct vat if the shipping address is outside the uk. Which in this case it's not.

 

Furthermore the uk seller will have to declare the value or clearance can not be effected yet the uk seller will be under no obligation to do so as the shipment as far as he's concerned will it's a interval uk sale ( for parcel motel or address pal )

 

Nope that business model is dead ( as is Amazon .co .uk for Irish buyers )

 

Saying buying from Germany is all very well. There will be less value for EU websites to produce English versions as uk customers will face the same issues and we don't count abd in most cases especially for small inexpensive items , shipping from Germany to Ireland makes things very expensive

 

Dark days ahead me thinks

[Warbonnet]

Remember , any uk retailer dispatching goods to a uk ( or Ni ) address will include any uk sales taxes ie their vat , on Brexit you will then pay Irish vat on top of uk sakes tax, whereas today you do not

 

That in itself will ruin address pal and parcel motel. A buyer here will be subject to currency margins , double vat and a custom clearance charge

 

U.K. Reseller can only deduct vat if the shipping address is outside the uk. Which in this case it's not.

 

Furthermore the uk seller will have to declare the value or clearance can not be effected yet the uk seller will be under no obligation to do so as the shipment as far as he's concerned will it's a interval uk sale ( for parcel motel or address pal )

 

Nope that business model is dead ( as is Amazon .co .uk for Irish buyers )

 

Saying buying from Germany is all very well. There will be less value for EU websites to produce English versions as uk customers will face the same issues and we don't count abd in most cases especially for small inexpensive items , shipping from Germany to Ireland makes things very expensive

 

Dark days ahead me thinks

 

We simply do not know what the VAT structure shipping from outside the UK to Ireland at this early stage of the Brexit process will be.

 

At this time, as Garfield has pointed out, if you buy goods to the value less than €150 outside the EU and have it posted to Ireland, there is no additional charge.

 

If UK businesses deduct VAT on products shipped outside the country (Hattons for example has been doing this for years for orders outside the EU) then you will see a 20% discount on the sticker price. The would keep a lot of products under the €150 threshold. Paying an extra fiver on your shipping rather than using Parcel Motel will still see you making a saving.

 

There are a huge amount of variables to consider before declaring 'dark days ahead'. Will sterling tank for instance? Have read many economists predicting parity with the Euro, this will bring down the cost further. Not to mention altering tax rates post Brexit, which could include VAT. It's far too early to say.

 

It has as much chance being good news for us as bad news.

 

I do agree with Noel though, it is almost certain to drive the price of British outline models up further due to the weakening pound and I think we've seen this already with recent Hornby and Bachmann announcements.

 

Shipping from Germany to Ireland is not that expensive. I've done it myself. And most German websites offer English translations. I can't see them scrapping that over Brexit. The import threshold from Europe to the UK may be similar to what we experience from importing outside the EU. Again, far too early to say. There is always Google translate too which is nice and handy.

 

Maybe something like Parcel Motel will cease to be viable, but we will still buy stuff from the UK. I wouldn;t go all out with the doom and gloom just yet.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Warbonnet

[WRENNEIRE]

Couldn't agree more Fran, we have absolutly no idea what lies ahead

I have been watching numerous debates on British TV and not one of them has agreed with any of the others

Everyone coming at it from their own point of view with no historical facts to back them, mainly because there are none!

I wonder if the train from China will make any difference is shipping costs from there?

[Junctionmad]

I think we can safety say the exit will be hard , that will prove costly for railway modellers buying from outside the uk.

 

Anyone whose seen the charges on importing from the USA ( leaving aside shipping ) will appreciate this

 

I have occasionally bought from Germany , shipping is inevitably 3-4x over the uk. ( in fact a polish web site was much cheaper shipping to the uk and using parcel motel then shipping direct to Ireland )

 

Buying small value items therefore is not viable as any perusal of Amazon.de will testify in minutes.

 

I see no upside , there won't even be any requirement for uk business to deduct vat ( or whatever it gets called ) on exports as this is a specific EU requirement and will not apply to the uk ( and many small uk traders are not vat registered in the first place as the threshold in the uk is at the top of the eu allowed scale whereas Ireland is at the lowest allowable

 

Note the 150 euros applied to duty , not vat , vat deminimis levels are harmonised across the Eu at the 20 euro figure mentioned

 

I fail to see any significant weakness in sterling , if anything the opposite is beginning to occur

 

Oh well , I start building a jar of cents to pay the postie again !!

[Broithe]

Couldn't agree more Fran, we have absolutly no idea what lies ahead

I have been watching numerous debates on British TV and not one of them has agreed with any of the others

Everyone coming at it from their own point of view with no historical facts to back them, mainly because there are none!

I wonder if the train from China will make any difference is shipping costs from there?

 

There is almost always a tendency for upward pricing pressures to be much more efficiently transferred towards the end user than downward pressures are.

 

People will need to keep their eyes open - price changes are happening preemptively already.

 

On the Germany/Poland issue, a friend of mine buys a good bit of German stuff, mostly sourced in Poland for cheaper carriage, and often lower prices, too...

[Warbonnet]

I think we can safety say the exit will be hard , that will prove costly for railway modellers buying from outside the uk.

 

Anyone whose seen the charges on importing from the USA ( leaving aside shipping ) will appreciate this

 

I have occasionally bought from Germany , shipping is inevitably 3-4x over the uk. ( in fact a polish web site was much cheaper shipping to the uk and using parcel motel then shipping direct to Ireland )

 

Buying small value items therefore is not viable as any perusal of Amazon.de will testify in minutes.

 

I see no upside , there won't even be any requirement for uk business to deduct vat ( or whatever it gets called ) on exports as this is a specific EU requirement and will not apply to the uk ( and many small uk traders are not vat registered in the first place as the threshold in the uk is at the top of the eu allowed scale whereas Ireland is at the lowest allowable

 

Note the 150 euros applied to duty , not vat , vat deminimis levels are harmonised across the Eu at the 20 euro figure mentioned

 

I fail to see any significant weakness in sterling , if anything the opposite is beginning to occur

 

Oh well , I start building a jar of cents to pay the postie again !!

 

It will be hard for someone, most likely. However, at this juncture we have no idea who that will be.

 

My purchases from Germany have been comparable to UK, save Hattons who subsidise postage.

 

As I previously stated, businesses like Hattons have been deducting VAT for customers outside the EU for years. If they want to sell to people in the EU, then businesses would be stupid not to offer the same facility to the EU after Brexit. Simple good business sense.

 

I have bought from the States regularly and if you go over the €150 duty (not VAT as you correctly pointed out, my bad) the penalty is large. But I still save over buying the same product in the EU.

 

We simply have no idea how Sterling will react, but economists predict it will drop and already has since the Brexit vote.

 

I guess I'm more a 'glass half full' kinda guy.

[Warbonnet]

Couldn't agree more Fran, we have absolutly no idea what lies ahead

I have been watching numerous debates on British TV and not one of them has agreed with any of the others

Everyone coming at it from their own point of view with no historical facts to back them, mainly because there are none!

I wonder if the train from China will make any difference is shipping costs from there?

 

Exactly Dave. Nobody has a clue how this is going to pan out.

 

Apparently the train is a lot less than air freight and faster than ship. I wouldn't be surprised if Britain tries to do favourable trade deals with China, the USA and other non EU markets. Only time will tell.

[jhb171achill]

Maybe someone will make model customs officers to stand beside model "Enterprise" DD sets....!!

 

Like the scenes on platforms at Strabane and Castlefinn back in the day....

[Broithe]

Maybe someone will make model customs officers to stand beside model "Enterprise" DD sets....!!

 

Like the scenes on platforms at Strabane and Castlefinn back in the day....

 

Print off a few of these..

 

 

[Garfield]

I think we can safety say the exit will be hard , that will prove costly for railway modellers buying from outside the uk.

 

Anyone whose seen the charges on importing from the USA ( leaving aside shipping ) will appreciate this

 

I have occasionally bought from Germany , shipping is inevitably 3-4x over the uk. ( in fact a polish web site was much cheaper shipping to the uk and using parcel motel then shipping direct to Ireland )

 

Buying small value items therefore is not viable as any perusal of Amazon.de will testify in minutes.

 

I see no upside , there won't even be any requirement for uk business to deduct vat ( or whatever it gets called ) on exports as this is a specific EU requirement and will not apply to the uk ( and many small uk traders are not vat registered in the first place as the threshold in the uk is at the top of the eu allowed scale whereas Ireland is at the lowest allowable

 

Note the 150 euros applied to duty , not vat , vat deminimis levels are harmonised across the Eu at the 20 euro figure mentioned

 

I fail to see any significant weakness in sterling , if anything the opposite is beginning to occur

 

Oh well , I start building a jar of cents to pay the postie again !!

 

I'm sorry but it's patently clear the value of Sterling has been falling for some time now and it recently reached a 30+ year low against the Dollar. It made a slight recovery after Teresa May's speech earlier this week but the decline has resumed again. The forecast is for near-parity with the Euro by the time the Brexit process is complete.

 

Regarding the likes of Parcel Motel, they have two years to find a solution. One possibility could involve having distribution depots designated as bonded warehouses.

 

Regarding your assertion that retailers won't deduct UK VAT, as has already been pointed out twice in this thread, they already do it for non-EU sales. I find that US retailers also deduct sales tax.

 

Another point that's also been made at least twice in this thread is that it's too early to know the exact nature of any trade deal the UK will strike with the EU. Gazing into a crystal ball with hysterical pessimism doesn't change that.

[Noel]

Agree it's way too early. We have minimum of two more years with the current arrangements as there will also be a transition period that could last years. After that then parcel motel and address pal from UK may cease if vat at point of entry and tariffs come into effect. Wait for the cookie to crumble before tasting it. The future of using Amazon.co.uk from ROI is the big unknown, but not for a long while yet. Amazon.de has worked well for me these past two years. Glass half full+.