Next Question - Horseboxes

[FrankS]

Hi Guys,

Once more I have returned to place a question before the oracle

This time, the question is Horseboxes.

I presume that CIE Horseboxes would have been listed as passenger stock and been in Dark CIE Green with eau-de-nil flying snails,

BUT,

I wonder did any last long enough to be painted in CIE Orange/Black (or indeed any other, later ) livery ???

[Garfield]

Hi Frank, you're correct in thinking that horseboxes were listed as passenger stock. However, while some may have just about lasted into the 'black & tan' era, I don't think any were ever turned out in that livery.

 

I'd say JHB171achill could provide a definitive answer on this...

[WRENNEIRE]

Frank

Locomotives & Rolling Stock of Coras Iompair Eireann & Northern Ireland Railways by O. Doyle & S. Hirsch do not list any Horseboxes

The book was published in 1979 but ststes that when CIE was nationalised in 1950 it began a stock replacement programme which resulted in the almost complete elimination of pre CIE vehicles by 1960,

CIE also had a road transport devision at this time and may have moved horses by truck?

[jhb171achill]

Yes, horse boxes were generally in passenger stock. In GSR days they were standard maroon, though without lining or crest; just shaded lettering "G S" and running number. In CIE days, plain dark green, without "eau-de-nil" lines, but with "flying snail" and number in that colour. Any lasting into black and tan era were never painted that colour, and indeed I doubt that even those that survived were used at all post-1962. One at least ended up in light wagon grey as a departmental vehicle; I saw it as such in Athlone about 1977. It had, by that stage, an orange surrounded "broken wheel" with white lettering. But it was not in use as a horse box by then. I saw another derelict somewhere in the mid 70s with flying snail on it and nothig else. It was in very badly faded green, impossible to tell whether it was pre-1955 darker brunswick green, or post-'55 lighter green as seen on RPSI (Dublin) and DCDR carriages of ex-CIE provenance. If you want to model a horsebox in traffic in a black'n'tan era layout, i would go for faded dark green with snails and numerals, no lining, heavily weathered chassis and roof of faded nondescript colour.

[jhb171achill]

I should add that well into CIE days, little used vehicles best described at peripheral passenger stock (like horse boxes or very old secondary passenger brake vans) could be seen still in GSR maroon. By this stage it was badly faded and weatherd to become a browny salmony pink. There is a beautifully detailed layout somewhere of Dingle station - I am sure many here will have seen it at exhibitions - and the carriages on that are (accurately) reproduced like this, rather than in fresh maroon. That sort of colour, heavily weathered, would suit an old horse box operating in "green" CIE days too.

[FrankS]

Thanx jhb and others. Great info. Best thing I ever did, joining this group

[Mayner]

The Irish vans were quite unlike the British Railways and GWR examples, N gauge Farish van was probably the nearest in general outline http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280940954793&clk_rvr_id=375524946185&item=280940954793&lgeo=1&vectorid=229508

 

Otherwise Alphagraphix have card kits for a SLNCR & an ex MGWR vans.

[Garfield]

The Irish vans were quite unlike the British Railways and GWR examples, N gauge Farish van was probably the nearest in general outline http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280940954793&clk_rvr_id=375524946185&item=280940954793&lgeo=1&vectorid=229508

 

Otherwise Alphagraphix have card kits for a SLNCR & an ex MGWR vans.

 

I have an OO scale Lima horsebox in LMS livery that's identical to the one in that auction pic, John. What Irish van is closest to it? GSWR?

[WRENNEIRE]

Lima produced 3 GWR style horsebox's in 1979

 

L305625 GWR Brown

L305626 LMS Maroon

L305628 Southern Green

 

Here is the Brown GWR Liveried one

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIMA-5626-GW-GWR-BROWN-HORSE-BOX-WAGON-No-546-NEW-BOXED-ms-/220983497108?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3373a49194

 

I will keep an eye out for a Southern Green one and see if it will pass muster.

[Broithe]

Lima produced 3 GWR style horsebox's in 1979

 

L305625 GWR Brown

L305626 LMS Maroon

L305628 Southern Green

 

Here is the Brown GWR Liveried one

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LIMA-5626-GW-GWR-BROWN-HORSE-BOX-WAGON-No-546-NEW-BOXED-ms-/220983497108?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3373a49194

 

There's rather too many roof vents on those, but it can be remedied by just snipping a few off - it comes from using a three-view drawing to form the moulds. Compare it to the new Hornby one - can't find a good picture of the roofs...

[Mayner]

Most CIE Horseboxes dated from before the amalgamation the last were built by the GSR to a GSWR design in the 1920s.

 

Most seem to be quite shortbase and van like in outline unlike the luxurious BR & GWR examples, the MGWR was the most unusual in outline with a dog box at one end like the bonnet of an old truck.

 

The GSR managed to wreck the SLNCR van in a shunting accident in the 1930s and replaced it with WLWR van dating from the 1870s.

 

 

 

Most of the Broad Gauge and Narrow Gauge vans were similar in outline.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Mayner

[Glenderg]

Beat me to the Punch, John! I was looking through Irish Broad Gauge Carriages by Des Coakham last night and it has photos of the wagon above, along with the tale of the shunting accident. If I recall rightly, there is mention of about 6 different horseboxes, each of a different design with photos and dimensions of each. There are versions from UTA, Sligo Leitrim, MGWR, GSR, and all the other pre amalgamation companies.

 

It's a worthwhile publication to have to hand, and still available on Amazon etc. Would highly recommend it to anyone interested in late steam/early diesel period.

[jhb171achill]

Standard length for all GSWR horse boxes was 15ft6 or 16ft for all built prior to 1911 (9ft wheel base); 19ft length after that, with 12ft wheel base. Livery dark crimson lake initially, as on GSWR coach 836 at Downpatrick. The GSWR dimensions were fairly standard among other railway companies - all Irish horseboxes were short wheelbase / short length.