Dromahair

[leslie10646]

12 hours ago, David Holman said:

On a different note, managed to get a secondhand copy of Colin Boocock's Irish Railway Album at a show last weekend. In the short section on the Sligo he writes that Sir Henry reached 60mph between Collooney and Sligo on the 7.40pm mixed from Enniskillen. Given the nature of the train itself, even though the cattle wagons had been detached, 60mph with 4'9" drivers seems a bit fanciful. Any truth in this?

Well, as a "timer" of trains, I thought this was not accurate and I even compared notes with another specialist. It IS wishful thinking.

In steam days, most of us timed using a stopwatch between the quarter mileposts. Thus, we took a speed every other quarter and if a milepost was out (remember they were placed according to twenty lengths of a chain and if a bridge got in the way, it was often placed nearby!).  Errors  weren't always obvious using this method of timing and one could be deluded into believing what seemed fast, wasn't quite so fast.

One pal of mine is still convinced that we did eighty MPH in South Africa, when we were actually doing 75.

Fifty, I could believe .......

[Broithe]

I have seen people timing modern trains using the mileposts, but counting the first post as 1, then posts 2 & 3 would go past, eventually post 4 would appear and they take that to be a mile, when it is only three-quarters of a mile, really.

I have succeeded in explaining it a couple of times, but failed on others...

[David Holman]

He does say Sir Henry was running and riding really well at the time, but I also wondered if 60 was a typo and it was actually 50.

[leslie10646]

Of course, today, people use a GPS which HELPS, but isn't always accurate - they don't like wooded areas and can give false readings over a short distance - which is why I still have my electronic stopwatch out (allowing pretty accurate times for every quarter mile) and then I compare notes before deciding just what speed we're doing.

Going back to the original story, I don't think I'd have been that keen riding on a SLNCR 0-6-4T even at 50mph. My fastest speed with the preserved No.27 is one the THIRTIES!

[Angus]

I started on the Jinty conversion this afternoon.

Firstly the components were brought together. The crankpins  have been soldered into the wheels and the conversion commenced.

The balance weight have been cleaned up with a file and superglued onto the wheels.

As I suspected the brakes have had to be cut off and will need moving out to align to the wider gauge.

The rear footsteps are also close to the wheel faces so these have been thinned down with a file to create a bit more clearance.

After a false start due to cutting a wheel muff too short ( I forgot the axles are 1mm further apart) and I've got a 0-4-0 rolling chassis.

Tomorrow should hopefully see the remaining axles complete and installed.

I'm intending to use a plain muff first to enable a rolling chassis to check and remove any tight spots in the rods before I install the geared muff.

For anyone doubting the benefits here is a comparison of the Farish coupling rods and wheels to the finescale ones.

[jhb171achill]

Under no circumstances could a SLNCR train have attained 60 miles per hour, or anything close to it.

After 1930, the track was in woeful state. jhbSenior inspected it twice or three times in the 1950s in his own time, as he was friendly with the SLNCR Traffic Manager during his time with the GNR in Enniskillen, and the SLNCR couldn't afford to retain their own civil engineer. His thoughts on the track would probably have had a speed limit of 35 mph at most, maybe 40 on a few stretches. The railcar might have done that. Perusal of the timetables then show roughly two hours for Enniskillen to Sligo, or some average 25mph. That would equate to a top running speed of maybe 31-32mph.

Apart from this, if anything attained even 45mph, it would have been Railcar "B". The wagons were certainly not fit for anything above 25-30mph.

Leslie, your reticence in believing anything about 60mph would be very well founded!

Colin Boocock may have been referring to when the line was first opened, but again, not with loose coupled wagons on a line with many, many, short and steep gradients.

[leslie10646]

JHB, my lack of believe is based on 55 years of timing trains and a certain cynicism about Irish railway "tales"!

[Angus]

Hi JBH,

The section of line mentioned by Colin Boocock in David's post was actually MGWR/GSR/CIE rail that the SLNCR had running rights over into Sligo.

As such I suspect it was in better condition, I still don't believe the 60 mph though!

Edited November 2, 2019 by Angus
So many mis-types!

[Galteemore]

How tantalising an idea though! And no less an authority than RN Clements comments on the mechanical fettle of the SLNC locos - it was ‘unknown’ for them to be the slightest bit off in the valves - even the ancient ‘Hazelwood’ apparently ran like a sewing machine. So it’s not hard to imagine a summer night just north of Collooney, as ‘Sir Henry’ blasts along the MGWR metals with just the bogie coach and a brake, as the 19:20 sometimes was, I can just see it roaring through Ballysodare! I’d even settle for 50 mph ...

Edited November 2, 2019 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

15 minutes ago, Angus said:

Hi JBH,

The section of line mentioned by Colin Babcock in David's post was actually MSWR/GNR/CIE rail that the SLNCR had running rights over into Sligo.

As such I suspect it was in better condition, I still don't believe the 60 mph though!

Indeed, Angus, nor do I. 

On the Ballysodare - Sligo stretch, a modern train, say an AEC railcar, would well do 60 - the track was for for it. But cattle trucks....no, definitely no. Such stock was normally limited to 30mph.

[David Holman]

The cattle vans had been dropped off at Collooney, says Boocock.

[jhb171achill]

38 minutes ago, David Holman said:

The cattle vans had been dropped off at Collooney, says Boocock.

In THAT case, between Ballysodare and Sligo, 60 with passenger coaches only, was certainly feasible at a pinch.

 

[Galteemore]

Never thought I’d see the SLNC dragged into the great debates of steam performance history.....Did ‘Truro’ manage the first 100mph? Does “Mallard’’s record really stand scrutiny? And now, did ‘Sir Henry’ manage 60? 

Of course, this need not be a purely philosophical discussion. Before ‘Lough Erne’ finally dissolves into rust, it would still be technically possible to try conclusions with an SLNC 0-6-4T on the MGW between Collooney and Sligo..move over, Sir Nigel and your duck! 

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Galteemore

[David Holman]

Now there's an idea!

[Angus]

The result of today's work is a rolling chassis with all three axles:-

I've since removed the plain muff on the drive axle and replaced it with a geared muff.

I've then run the chassis under power and all seems well.

Next step is to solder the coupling rod washers in place and shorten the crankpins so the body can drop on.

Hopefully I won't solder everything solid on the process!

[leslie10646]

Did ‘Truro’ manage the first 100mph? Does “Mallard’’s record really stand scrutiny? And now, did ‘Sir Henry’ manage 60? 

Neither Truro nor Flying Scotsman for that matter was the first steam loco to 100mph. That was 2750 Papyrus which did 108mph on trials pre-"SIlver Jubilee".

There is no doubt that the GW engine did a very high speed that crazy night on the Bullion train, almost certainly just into the nineties; "Scotsman" only did 99mph according to CJ Allen, later amended by the LNER to 100mph.

As for the "Duck" - three very brave men equalled the existing World Record of 124.5mph. That's what the LNER claimed at the time. The record was two years old and held by the German streamlined 4-6-4 05.001 - it was only during the War (Emergency) that the British claimed the World Record based on the dynamometer car roll of 126mph - for 108ft!!!!

As one very wise man said recently, there were dozens of very fast runs which went unrecorded by we omniscient timers - the Lord knows, but the real speed record might be over 130mph! And the "Ton" done years earlier that the 1930s. It gives us all something to tlak about on cold winter nights, while enjoying a beer!

PS Angus - the JInty is coming on nicely!

[David Holman]

Every time I read about a 2FS project, I am tempted! The Society offers splendid support, not least at the moment, where £7.50 buys you a starter comprising a wagon kit and a length of track to make up. 2FS runs so well and the couplings are much neater than the commercial items where on a small loco like the Terrier, they add 50% to the length.

 Well done Angus for ploughing the furrow in 5'3!

 As for the speed records, I think it is doubtful any British loco apart from Mallard did more than 120mph, because the effort of going for the record seriously damaged it. The very brief period of 126 or thereabouts was largely because the attempted had to be abandoned at that point, or the motion would have been destroyed, with catastrophic consequences. This is also like as not the reason why it was never beaten, though post war austerity and dieselisation/electrification are others. The complex mechanical linkages in locomotive valve gear, plus the basic physics of power to weight ratio, thermal efficiency and so on probably put a basic limit of around 120mph for a conventional steam loco, with 110 a realistic day to day maximum. 

 However, if diesels and electrics hadn't come along, who knows? Remember Back to the Future 3?!

[djwynne]

I’ve just rejoined the forum.

Bob Jones did an etch of generic 5’3” chassis from 8’6” wheelbase to 12’0”. He might be prepared to do one for you.

 I’m currently trying to design a mechanism for the railcar using a 3mm motor from Nigel Lawson and some Modulo3 gears which I have just picked up at the show in Friedrichshafen Germany 

if I can help, I’ll drop back in when I get home 

regards

David Wynne 

[Angus]

Thanks David,

Presumably that is Bob Jones of Fence Houses Model Foundry?

Bob doesn't list the chassis on his price list, but then I'm struggling to see what would make it 10.5mm gauge? 

Frame spacers are usually strips of doubled side PCB. 7mm wide PCB used for 9.42mm gauge presumably 8mm would suit 10.5mm gauge.

For Railcar  B (and potentially 2A) I have bought this combined motor and gearbox:-

https://shop.kkpmo.com/product_info.php?info=p1003_m400g144-micromotor-with-ratio-144-1.html

The 1:144 gear box should provide a scale 60 MPH top speed.

The 1mm dia axle will enable 2mm scale association carriage and wagon wheels to be slide on.

It all works in theory I just need to test the practice!

[David Holman]

Well out of my league! Much as I admire 2FS, in 7mm scale/36.75 (ish) gauge, I can get away with +/- half a mm on back to backs and things still seem to run ok. Shades of the actual SLNCR!

[Angus]

I doubt that David, you haven't seen the levels of bodgery I frequently descend to.

Hundredths of a mm measurements are much more of theory than reality! 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Angus

[David Holman]

Ah, but my bodgery is bigger than your bodgery!

(✷‿✷)

[Angus]

On 10/30/2019 at 8:32 AM, David Holman said:

On a different note, managed to get a secondhand copy of Colin Boocock's Irish Railway Album at a show last weekend. In the short section on the Sligo he writes that Sir Henry reached 60mph between Collooney and Sligo on the 7.40pm mixed from Enniskillen. Given the nature of the train itself, even though the cattle wagons had been detached, 60mph with 4'9" drivers seems a bit fanciful. Any truth in this?

Thanks for the recommendation David.

I tracked down a copy of Colin Boocock's Irish Railway Album which arrived in yesterday's post.

Although coverage of the SLNCR is limited it is a very inspiring book.

There is a great picture of a C class at Sligo next to one of the SLNCR's 0-6-4t just before closure of the SLNCR, which provides a nice might have been for a C class on excursion traffic.

Elsewhere there this a love photo of a shiny new C Class hauling a train of three elderly six wheeled coaches. The juxtaposition of these items of rolling stock together creates an effect I'm itching to model.

Can anyone recommend a book on the C Class?

[David Holman]

Good stuff, though hope your copy is less smelly than mine. Must have been kept somewhere damp and it smells decidedly mouldy, even though the paper is actually ok. 

Hopefully news of C class literature comes through, its one I'd happily do in 7mm scale - when I find the time, of course...

[Mayner]

I am not sure if the un-rebuilt C Class would have been capable or hauling or more importantly stopping power to safely work loose coupled cattle trains over the SLNCR 1:50 grades, a B101 would have been a better proposition though the Southern would have been reluctant to release one until sufficient rebuilt A Class were available to take over freight duties on the South Western lines.

 Neil Ramsey built a pair of C Class in 15mm one static one operational including sound and smoke unit. There is an article in New Irish Lines on scratchbuilding building the 15mm C Class

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by Mayner

[Galteemore]

Barry Carse’s book on Metrovicks may be your best literary option, although available copies are rarer than a rare thing....

Edited November 6, 2019 by Galteemore

[Angus]

Thanks Galteemore,

I've just found a bargain copy, think I'll snap it up quickly.......

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Irish-Metro-Vick-Diesels-Colourpoint-Transport/dp/1898392153

 

[David Holman]

£415!!!!! Who are they trying to kid?

[Angus]

Well, the inevitable happened when I soldered on the coupling rods onto the Y class and I managed to solder two of the pins solid.

Strangely this was the last two I did so I was obviously getting complacent. I've freed them off now but in the process loosened one of the wheels.

With a bit of fettling everything is running again, I just need to attack the recalcitrant pins again when I'm in the mood.

Instead I turned my attention to developing the layout a bit more.

Some 6mm MDF was salvaged from the garage and cut to shape for the station platforms. This actually took quite a while due to the need to size everything around the buildings. And there in lies a problem, I can't find any consistent data of measures. So short of trudge across the Irish Sea with a tape measure (I did suggest a holiday to my wife but she seemed unimpressed by the this....) I've gone with what looks right.

My datum points were the 25 inch OS map, Bing maps aerial view and Google earth. All three give different dimensions for the buildings  

What initially threw me was the goods shed. I had presumed this would be the same as the one at Glenfarne. It looks similar in the photos and an I've bought an Alphagraphix kit of the structure, scanned it in and re-scaled it for 2mm. Looking at the Dromahair structure in more detail is is clearly a bigger building.

I think I've got back to a pretty good approximation. No doubt if I ever get to Dromahair armed with said tape measure I'll find I'm widely out. Still if it looks right........

 

The building in the photo above are just held together with bluetak. The corners need chamfering and more door and window cut outs are required.

The white strips are foam from a pizza base that will be scribbed and painted as rough stonework. Some initial experiments look promising.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Angus

[Galteemore]

Looks good to me Angus. I was fact finding in Dromahair in July and took a few snaps. As I’m looking for the SLNC house style to emulate rather than a exact replica, I’m afraid I didn’t take a tape measure...but the goods shed looks a bit bigger than Glenfarne, which I have just this week mocked up in 7mm.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Galteemore

[Angus]

Thanks Galteemore those two views are most useful.

I haven't seen a rear view of the goods shed.

I am puzzled why the downpipe hopper is so low though.

It's the same on the front:-

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway Stations D/Dromahair/IrishRailwayStations.html#Dromahair_20060618_005_CC_JA.jpg

 

[Galteemore]

Yes, Angus, rather odd. I’m sitting in Amsterdam airport right now so can’t check my SLNC collection but I do remember that I thought the water pipe arrangement wasn’t quite what I expected when I made the Dromahair-ish station building...

Edited November 10, 2019 by Galteemore

[Broithe]

43 minutes ago, Angus said:

I am puzzled why the downpipe hopper is so low though.

It's the same on the front:-

http://eiretrains.com/Photo_Gallery/Railway Stations D/Dromahair/IrishRailwayStations.html#Dromahair_20060618_005_CC_JA.jpg

 

Was there maybe a gutter along the front of the 'porch', with a bend and a run back into the hopper?

This sort of thing.

[David Holman]

Possibly, though expanding the be photo shows the downpipe from the roof gutters stopping short of the porch which suggests there was a gulley next to the wall on the porch roof and water from here went down the next drainpipe to the ground.

 A slight gradient on the porch roof towards the wall?

[Angus]

Hi Brothie, 

I did wonder if that might be the case but hoppers look higher than the front of the porch. It might just be an optical illusion in the photo mind.

I'll have to spend some time looking at the historical photos.