SSM GNR(I) "S"-class 4-4-0

[Horsetan]

Long before Mercedes made it the plutocrat / African diplomatic conveyance of choice, the Great Northern Railway of Ireland laid claim to the "S" classification to place on Glover's classic 4-4-0 design.

 

Decades later, a brass and nickel-silver kit was produced. Fairly hard to get hold of in those pre-Internet days, it was another couple of decades before a secondhand one, untouched as many kits are, was spotted on eBay and swiped for less than the cost of a Ryanair seat to Dublin.

 

Here it all is, to be built in Irish P4/21mm gauge. As a first stab, you'd want to be doing it more elegantly than a skanger in Ballyfermot:

 

 

 

It will be sixteen weeks before Irish axles arrive from Ultrascale and hopefully a lot less than that for P4-profiled wheels from AGW (Alan Gibson Workshop). There'll be working hornblocks to get from High Level, and we'll be trying to install the CSB suspension system. I absolutely hate worm gears, so one of the many Portescap RG4s in my drawer will probably find its way into the drivetrain.

 

Des at SSM e-mailed the missing instruction sheets this week and we're sort of set to go. The instructions suggest that you can build the body structures separately from the chassis, which is great 'cos the wheels and axles aren't here yet!

 

I'll be trying to portray no.171. I only model preserved stuff, on the basis that you can still go and see the thing.

 

A 21mm gauge layout in future? Now chance would be a fine thing (though Templot makes it easier) - more likely I'll seek permission to run on someone else's 21mm gauge.

[RedRich]

I can't wait to see more of this Horsetan. It has the makings of a great topic and model.

 

Rich,

[Horsetan]

There will be two speeds employed on this build: slow......and stop.

[Guest hidden-agenda]

Welcome to the site and this is a real winter job you have so please loads of pics as you go.

[Horsetan]

..... so please loads of pics as you go.

 

That reminds me of the huge sign that Dougal wrote for Ted:

 

"Ted: get me loads of matador stuff"

 

Edited September 11, 2012 by Horsetan

[Guest hidden-agenda]

Careful now Ted and remember the saying dont ever drink and solder.

[BosKonay]

This train is a model, that train is faaaaaar away

[Horsetan]

Careful now Ted and remember the saying dont ever drink and solder.

 

Yeah, and don't go giving it away in a raffle now, ha ha ha....

[Guest hidden-agenda]

When i first landed in the north ( i parachuted in and nearly parachuted out when i got caught in a tree) i was advised to take Nordy elocution lessons. The first thing they made me do was give up saying f*** off and to replace it with

THAT,S NICE.

Why do you dislike worm drive and what,s the advantage of a portescap? I found this and it may be food for thought if you have some that are noisy.

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/data/PDF/Noisy%20Portescaps.PDF

[Weshty]

Ahh the S Class. Like Victor Kiam with Remington Shavers, "I liked it so much, I bought the company!"

[enniscorthyman]

Welcome to the site Horsetan,and I hope you keep us updated on your

build.It looks just the ticket for the man shed on dark Winters nights.

[Horsetan]

...

Why do you dislike worm drive and what's the advantage of a portescap?

 

Simply this: when there is no power, a worm drive locks up solid. Think about our car gearboxes & differentials: they use bevels / contrates for a reason, & that's why cars can coast when disengaged.

 

Coreless motors such as Escap or Maxon need very little current to get started, & are very efficient. It's like comparing LEDs to filament bulbs.

[Weshty]

Wow Horsetan, this is a whole new technology to me, but sounds bloody fascinating. Have you any photos that you can put up of the Portescap or indeed a Youtube clip?

 

 

 

http://www.portescap.com/cms/motor-technology.html

 

http://svenskmjwiki.wikispaces.com/Maskindelar+och+teknologi

 

Fascinating...£50 a pop eh?

Edited September 9, 2012 by Weshty

[Kirley]

Welcome to the site, looking forward to seeing this project develop.

[heirflick]

hi horsetan..(love the name..but i wont ask how you came up with it!) i have a special place in my heart for irish steamers so i will be watching the thread with interest!

[Horsetan]

Wow Horsetan, this is a whole new technology to me, but sounds bloody fascinating. Have you any photos that you can put up of the Portescap

 

I'll put up photos of the three main types that have been used in UK railway modelling: the 1219, 1616 and 1624. Each came with a 3-stage bevel & spur gearbox and were marketed here as the Escap RG4 from the late 1970s until the mid-2000s when the gearboxes became unavailable.

 

The motors themselves are of course still being made.

 

Fascinating...£50 a pop eh?

 

I stockpiled them when they were in production, so mostly paid about £35 or less. I had 20 in the drawer the last time I checked. On eBay, people go mad if one appears and I've seen them go up to £235 for a single unit; £65 to £80 is more usual.

 

I would like to see the gearbox / geartrain being made again. They would be a grand drivetrain for any motor, not just coreless. Sure there must be a gearmaker in Ireland who can do this type of thing....??

[Weshty]

I'll put up photos of the three main types that have been used in UK railway modelling: the 1219, 1616 and 1624. Each came with a 3-stage bevel & spur gearbox and were marketed here as the Escap RG4 from the late 1970s until the mid-2000s when the gearboxes became unavailable.

 

The motors themselves are of course still being made.

 

 

 

I stockpiled them when they were in production, so mostly paid about £35 or less. I had 20 in the drawer the last time I checked. On eBay, people go mad if one appears and I've seen them go up to £235 for a single unit; £65 to £80 is more usual.

 

I would like to see the gearbox / geartrain being made again. They would be a grand drivetrain for any motor, not just coreless. Sure there must be a gearmaker in Ireland who can do this type of thing....??

 

Sounds like a good project/challenge alright. One would of course have to get an existing version to work out the innards first....

[Horsetan]

Sounds like a good project/challenge alright. One would of course have to get an existing version to work out the innards first....

 

Click here for some close-up views

[Weshty]

I opened up the link, but could see only text.

[Broithe]

I opened up the link, but could see only text.

I see the pictures - maybe try it again..?

 

Or try this - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/824-Slightly-OT-coreless-motors-and-high-efficiency-drivetrains?p=10560#post10560

[Weshty]

I see the pictures - maybe try it again..?

 

Or try this - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/824-Slightly-OT-coreless-motors-and-high-efficiency-drivetrains?p=10560#post10560

 

 

Hmm, still not visible, I need to try it from a different PC.

[Broithe]

Hmm, still not visible, I need to try it from a different PC.

 

Weird - still, you've found them now...

[Horsetan]

That was weird. I even uploaded the photos into the Forum's own albums, so they should have shown instantly the moment the link was clicked.

 

UPDATE: Ultrascale are just after telling me the Irish broad gauge axle sets are ready to collect. Only one week after ordering!! Unreal!

Edited September 10, 2012 by Horsetan

[RedRich]

That was weird. I even uploaded the photos into the Forum's own albums, so they should have shown instantly the moment the link was clicked.

 

UPDATE: Ultrascale are just after telling me the Irish broad gauge axle sets are ready to collect. Only one week after ordering!! Unreal!

 

That's really quick Horsetan considering the usual wait. I will have to chat to them myself soon about doing some steel wheels and axles for the diesel locos in 21mm. I might even look into them producing some drop in wheelsets as a commission as time isn't a factor at the moment.

 

Rich,

[Horsetan]

That's really quick Horsetan considering the usual wait.

 

Probably because it didn't involve wheels!

 

The pressure's on now, as I must get the wheels from AGW, and hornblocks/bearings from High Level. The bare chassis would act as a cradle to start building the body.

 

I will have to chat to them myself soon about doing some steel wheels and axles for the diesel locos in 21mm. I might even look into them producing some drop in wheelsets as a commission as time isn't a factor at the moment.

 

For P4/18.83, there's one fella who's getting them to do drop-in sets for the Kernow Beattie 2-4-0 Well Tank. Apparently the project is going to cost at least a grand, so that might give an idea of the sort of costs involved.

 

Make sure you've got a good number of interested subscribers for the 21mm gauge sets, who will put their money where their mouths are.

[RedRich]

Probably because it didn't involve wheels!

 

The pressure's on now, as I must get the wheels from AGW, and hornblocks/bearings from High Level. The bare chassis would act as a cradle to start building the body.

 

 

 

For P4/18.83, there's one fella who's getting them to do drop-in sets for the Kernow Beattie 2-4-0 Well Tank. Apparently the project is going to cost at least a grand, so that might give an idea of the sort of costs involved.

 

Make sure you've got a good number of interested subscribers for the 21mm gauge sets, who will put their money where their mouths are.

 

Thanks Horsetan a change of plan may have to be looked at. I will have to look at reusing the gears on new axles with new wheels using some brass spacers. The Alan Gibson wheelsets are certainly nice. The Scalefour stores seem to be out of stock at the moment on 28mm pp axles but I might give AGW a ring and see what can be done.

 

Rich,

[Horsetan]

.....Scalefour stores seem to be out of stock at the moment on 28mm pp axles but I might give AGW a ring and see what can be done.

 

Get the 28mm axles from Ultrascale. I did! They're about the cheapest things Ultrascale make - postage to Ireland will probably be more than the axles are worth, but if you get a good stock of them it will be worth it.

 

Have you got your Irish back-to-back gauge already? I have to buy one from the Stores......

[RedRich]

Get the 28mm axles from Ultrascale. I did! They're about the cheapest things Ultrascale make - postage to Ireland will probably be more than the axles are worth, but if you get a good stock of them it will be worth it.

 

Have you got your Irish back-to-back gauge already? I have to buy one from the Stores......

 

Thanks Horsetan that sounds like a good plan. I have a back to back gauge for the wheels somewhere with the rest of the components and tools. I am giving serious thought to getting a Roger Sanders point fine tuning gauge for the building of the points from the stores. I will use Gibson steel wheels for the wagons and coaches as I am using steel bullhead rail. Any idea if there is anything useful wheel wise in the Exactoscale range.

 

Rich,

[Horsetan]

Have already read through the "S"-class instructions. Hope "Weshty" might allow me to either add notes or corrections as I go along. First point relates to the spacers that are in the kit - they are specifically for "OO" and would be too narrow for 21mm gauge. Don't know whether there are longer ones available but, in my case, I'll have to make my own from nickel silver strip of the appropriate width.

 

The idea is that the chassis below the footplate should be as close (or identical) to the width of the cosmetic frames above it. It also means that there is then enough room for working inside motion / pistons, if such a kit ever becomes available in future.

 

 

Does anyone have any photos of Slieve Gullion in a dismantled state, showing the cranks and rods, etc. between the frames?

 

....Any idea if there is anything useful wheel wise in the Exactoscale range.

 

Exactoscale wheels look great but are seriously expensive (click here for list), and the driving wheels in particular have a specialised mounting system for which you are required to buy their tool (an extra £30). At the moment, I can't see any wheels that could be used on an Irish engine but I do know I can't afford Exactoscale prices! They do not list anything specifically for Irish broad gauge, but there'd be no harm in asking them whether they can make a batch of Irish BG wheelsets.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Horsetan
Additional thoughts.

[Horsetan]

This somewhat grainy shot shows the etch for 171's tender:

 

 

Looks fairly straightforward. As designed, it has a rigid rear axle, and is meant to place increased weight on the drawbar and contribute to the adhesion of the engine (traditionally a weak spot in model 4-4-0s).

 

I'd like to modify it slightly so that all axles can float.

[Horsetan]

Things moved on again today, and I was privileged enough to visit Ultrascale's engineering workshop this afternoon to collect the axles that I had ordered only last week:

 

 

This is one of the fortunate things about living along the way from them (actually, a few miles south) - they give you the option of coming to collect your order personally when it's ready.

 

These axles are from their standard range: the 1/8" driving axles (on the left) are in fact meant for British engines with outside frames / outside cranks, but can be usefully employed, with maybe a bit of trimming, as axles for 21mm gauge driving wheels.

 

The 2mm dia. bogie axles (middle) are also turned out 26mm long. You can specify this at time of ordering, and it gives you the facility to trim them back if they are a bit long. Much easier to do this than find your axles are too short.

 

The 2mm dia. pinpoint axles (right) are the standard 28mm long, as used in 21mm gauge anyway. Again, Ultrascale give you the option of specifying this when ordering.

 

By using standard Ultrascale products, not requiring anything of new design to be made, this can speed things up considerably.

 

All we need now are the wheels themselves, a back-to-back gauge, and some High Level hornblocks and bearings!

 

THOUGHT: it may not be necessary to buy a back-to-back gauge immediately, as Stephen Johnson's helpful diagram suggests that a maximum back-to-back of 19.92mm can be used for Irish broad gauge......

Edited September 11, 2012 by Horsetan
typo

[Horsetan]

I measured the width between the upper cosmetic frames on the engine footplate with digital calipers. This came out at about 17.9mm, and tells me that the chassis spacers underneath should have a width as close as possible to this. 17 or 17.5mm would be a more practical width.

 

 

Meanwhile I have also ordered a copy of the County Down Railway Trust's book on the "S"-class engines - apparently these have drawings in them. My order went to Cuan Publications of Newtonards, so let's see if anything turns up.

 

Ahh the S Class. Like Victor Kiam with Remington Shavers, "I liked it so much, I bought the company!"

 

 

Edited September 13, 2012 by Horsetan
victor kiam

[Horsetan]

Here's a closer look at some of the nameplates that are provided as part of the etch:

 

 

 

One of the things that marks the age of the kit design is the absence of a copy of the etches showing the individual part numbers. It must be frustrating to read the instructions and not instantly recognise the parts.

 

I spent the greater part of the evening photocopying the etches onto a sheet of A4, and have been marking off as many of the part numbers on it as I could manage.

 

The thing is, "Weshty" has probably already done this, but is waiting to see if I'll work my way through, for the craic. The oul devil!!

Edited September 13, 2012 by Horsetan

[Horsetan]

....and here's a closer look at the later style of upper mainframe profile, as used by no.171:

 

 

 

Today's update: a complete set of wheels have been ordered from AGW and might arrive by the weekend...... High Level hornblocks have also been ordered, and might arrive next Wednesday.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Horsetan
parts ordered

[Weshty]

Here's a closer look at some of the nameplates that are provided as part of the etch:

 

 

One of the things that marks the age of the kit design is the absence of a copy of the etches showing the individual part numbers. It must be frustrating to read the instructions and not instantly recognise the parts.

 

I spent the greater part of the evening photocopying the etches onto a sheet of A4, and have been marking off as many of the part numbers on it as I could manage.

 

The thing is, "Weshty" has probably already done this, but is waiting to see if I'll work my way through, for the craic. The oul devil!!

 

Horsetan, page 5 of the S Class has a diagram of the etches with numbering (and even the original non digital) instruction had this Is this not on the softcopy I sent you?

Edited September 13, 2012 by Weshty