Factory Life.

[Mayner]

2 hours ago, Broithe said:

Over time, as the 70s moved into the chaos of the 80s, they became used for more and more things, as it became impossible to get agreement to spend any money on the actual job. As things failed, they were slowly replaced by, essentially, home-made things. 

When my father retired in the late 70s he started doing shutdown maintenance work for an engineering contract shop.

One of his last jobs (in the Clondalkin Paper Mill) was inspecting/dismantling plant then servicing and re-assembling the plant without replacing worn parts as there was no money in the budget to replace worn/broken parts.

Dad didn't mind he had basically seen it all before and the pay rates with the contract shop were good

[Broithe]

Talk elsewhere of a time when I did a bit for a plant hire firm has had me thinking about the mad stuff that went on. The owner did not look the part at all - when I first met him, I would have guessed he was a geography teacher, but he was hugely competent at his work, if a little unconventional.

He had plant involved in a project which was running a new bridge across a dual carriageway. The bridge spans arrived and were hanging on the crane when it was noticed that an existing streetlight was in the way of one of the spans being placed. As with all such projects, huge numbers of organisations were involved and a dispute arose about what to do. The lighting had to remain operational, but the post couldn't stay there. It was not really any of his business, but whilst dozens of blokes were arguing in a Portakabin, he spoke to the crane crew, to ascertain what height was acceptable and got an electrician to disable the wiring up the pole, but leaving the connection in the base, as a 'junction box', so the rest of the lights would still work. Then he got a saw and was lifted up in a bucket to cut the top of the lamppost off, leaving a few inches clearance from the bottom of the bridge, so there was no chance of rain ingress.

The stump was there for many years after, under the bridge and unnoticed by thousands who drove past it every day, although it is gone now. I always used to acknowledge "Martin's lamppost" whenever I went past it.

[Broithe]

 .

15 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

I posted that Baldwin drawing quite a few years ago. I rather suspect that all of the American imports were not successful/ liked in  the UK is the totally different engineering philosiphy of the American builders and the "not invented here" attitude of GB engineers. That ones still about!

 Interesting article about the Port Talbot 0-8-2t's in Railway Archive No 4 July 2003 it also has a very good drawing. They were built by Cooke of Paterson NJ.

 

This reminded me of one of many similar events when I had a 'proper job'.

We made high-voltage circuit breakers and had many "events" which were caused by plated bolts having the plating scraped off as they were tightened. With vibration and the effects of the fairly intense electric field, the bits would often eventually line up and cause the insulation to fail, in quite a spectacular manner.

The company had the policy of always buying the cheapest rubbish available and hoping for the best, but this was getting desperate, stuff was blowing up everywhere and a solution was wanted (in reality, they just wanted to be seen to be actively seeking a solution, whilst hoping that the problem would soon be overshadowed by something bigger).

A meeting was called and I suggested that we might get a lot less debris if we used stainless steel fasteners. This would have involved spending a few pence more, but I might as well have suggested using platinum.

A few years later, we were taken over by a French operation who made similar stuff, but to a much higher standard - and I remember a bloke actually laughing at the state of the bolts we used. We then went to S/S everywhere...

 

Not only were the fasteners a bit flaky, in the true sense, but they were also very rough - to the point that they usually required a spanner to spin them in loose. This led to a near double fatality, when some bolts were removed from a pressure vessel which was still (unknowingly) pressurised. The tightness as they came out, still loaded up, seemed 'normal' to the chaps undoing them, until the last few let go and fired the whole 4 tonne thing up through the roof, derailing the travelling crane that was holding it, ready to be lifted off, and filling the sunken area they were working in with a dense, asphyxiant gas....

[Mike 84C]

British engineering ; run by ??? oh yes accountants.  

[Mayner]

On 28/2/2024 at 3:15 AM, Mike 84C said:

British engineering ; run by ??? oh yes accountants.  

Not just Britain but prevalent 'as value engineering" (skimping) at an international level in construction.

Senior management began to panic that I was using substantially more stone fill than they had estimated on the Masonite Ireland project in County Leitrim during the mid 1990s.  In commercial construction the Contractor buys stone fill by from the supplier by the Tonne and is paid by the Main Contractor or Client by the Cubic Meter.

When the panic set in our engineers were instructed to (physically) check and re-check the volume used and kept coming up with the same answer in Cu/M which did not tally with the tonnage used, until I pointed out that the density of the stone supplied from the Roadstone Boyle Quarry average 2.5T/m³ well above the theoretical 1.6T/m³ used in the estimation text books. We had a similar panic while working for the same firm on a Dublin project and decided it was time to move to a firm with a more practical pragmatic management culture.

Moving to my first job in New Zealand I spent my first day laughing at the level of skimping on an Auckland Apartment project which made engineering design on Irish and UK projects of the 2000s era look extremely high cost and conservative (cautious) in comparison.

I quickly made two decisions (1) not to buy a post 1970s home because of the high risk of defects (2) to get our of construction or work on my own account due to the hassle working for the larger companies in the industry, a decision that  me basically took me through to retirement without too much hassle

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

Not just Britain but prevalent 'as value engineering" (skimping) at an international level in construction....

The Chinese have taken this to another level, which might explain why a fair few of their boom-era buildings have collapsed over the years.

[Ironroad]

On 27/2/2024 at 9:15 AM, Mike 84C said:

British engineering ; run by ??? oh yes accountants.  

That's a little unfair.  Accountants are not engineers and if involved in the costing process can only take the information provided to them by engineers at face value. Sometimes in the course of competitive tendering it is engineers on the sales side that take an overly optimistic view on quantities etc.

The situation described by John would indicate to me that, yes, as should be the case the accountants were raising the alarm when actual costs were exceeding the estimates.  I've seen this happen.  Hopefully there were no other issues and the contingency factor, (that should be a part of every building/engineering proposal) provided sufficient cover, albeit of poor consolation.

[Mayner]

On 11/3/2024 at 4:36 AM, Ironroad said:

That's a little unfair.  Accountants are not engineers and if involved in the costing process can only take the information provided to them by engineers at face value. Sometimes in the course of competitive tendering it is engineers on the sales side that take an overly optimistic view on quantities etc.

The situation described by John would indicate to me that, yes, as should be the case the accountants were raising the alarm when actual costs were exceeding the estimates.  I've seen this happen.  Hopefully there were no other issues and the contingency factor, (that should be a part of every building/engineering proposal) provided sufficient cover, albeit of poor consolation.

In commercial construction an Estimator or a Senior Quantity Surveyor will prepare costings (and appoint contractors) for a project in consultation with members of the senior management team who are usually of an Engineering or Construction Management background rather that working is separate silos.

Part of the problem may have been a reluctance by managers from an Engineering or Construction background to question the assumption of an Estimator or Quantity Surveyor (member of a separate professional body)

As a Site Manager or Foreman I only got involved after a successful bid, my role was identifying issues and risks at an early stage including questioning design, estimating and final assumptions. At organisational level there tended to be two responses either to work through the issues or pretend they did not exist. I tended to jump ship quickly with the latter kind of organisation, staying around was not worth the hassle.

 

[Mayner]

I guess the moral of todays story is that the Irish can beat almost anyone when it comes to sharp practice and its sometimes difficult to judge whether a Gombeen Man is just incompetent or a rogue.

Abought 30 years ago I was working as a Site Manager for a major Irish Construction company one of whose specialities was building Hotels for "Investors" who were taking advantage of tax breaks for investments in 'tourist infrastructure.

The company successfully completed 'budget hotels" in Cork and Galway using pre-cast technology and were approached by the promoters (firm of architects) in mid-96 to complete a similar hotel in Dublin by the end of the (96-97) tax year. 

The company advised that it was unable to complete the project within the expected time frame using traditional construction or pre-cast technology.

Promoters came back a couple of months later advising that they had found the Irish Licensee to a British "fast build" building system that would that would complete the building superstructure within the foreshortened time frame.  The Irish licensee would be appointed as Lead Contractor while our role was to manage the overall project and collect our fees.

I had just completed a manufacturing project in Athlone and was asked to be present at a meeting in Dublin the following morning with my bosses, the promoters, services contractors and the Irish Licensee for the 'fast build system' our Gombeen Man.

This was before the days when everyone on a construction site wore high vis or branded clothing, most of use arrived at the meeting wearing a combination of business suits and smart casual wear though our Lead Contractor turned up smoking a cigar and dressed like Arthur Daley complete with soft hat and Crombie coat.

Our lead gave use a presentation on how he would complete the project  on time, though the information on his concrete supplier and sources of labour were not convincing, the left the meeting

While promoters and my side did not say a word, the services contractors immediately turned to the promoters and asked for a 'extension of time" to complete the project when the Lead Contractor failed citing major problems on a number of projects where the same individual was involved

In the end we finished the hotel in time for the 'investors" to receive their tax breaks, though we had to take direct control of the works from the licensee to complete the project (similar to adminsitration)

The Gombeen Man had sufficient leverage in terms of the Irish license to the proprietary UK system to be retained as contractor to carry out the "off site" assembly in Dublin, though he remained a nusiance and was banned from site for much of the contract, though he did appear to take credit and guide prospective clients around after we handed the completed hotel over to the client.

Think it may have been mainly a case of our Gombeen Man not realising his limitations getting in too deep both in the case of the organisations he was dealing with the construction team were aware of his track record and used him as long as necessary. 

Surprisingly while our Gombeen Man struggled with the off-site assembly, he employed a highly competent site manager and team of carpenters and roofers to complete the roofing works.

One interesting snippet was receiving a call to remove the company sign board as the ISO Quality Auditor was expected to drive past the site on his way to carry out an audit at head office. The company possibly keeping the project "off the books" in terms of its Quality Assurance system to avoid reputational damage if the project failed.

I left that particular firm shortly after completing the hotel and never experienced a similar problems on a construction project again

[Mayner]

Looking back apart from the drama that was going on in the background with the license holder of the 'building system" the project ran smoothly at site level with the exception of one potentially serious incident. The metal framing system was accurate, components arrived on time and everything fitted accurately co-ordinating with brickwork modules and aluminium glazing system often a serious problem on large projects.

The building was four storey with concrete floors supported by the steel structure on a metal decking system that was supposed to be self supporting, I had come across similar systems in the UK that used a lightweight concrete topping but not with a dense concrete topping.

Unconvinced that the decking would be self supporting I ordered in props while waiting the paperwork from our Lead Contractor that the floor was self supporting. Armed with the paperwork we started to pour the first floor of the building without propping, the concrete gang noticed the decking had began to deflect in one area, we paused the pour to install the propping and resumed the pour after 1 hour and used propping on the remaining three floors while the powers that be argued over who would pay for the propping.

Ironically I investigated two floor collapses involving similar flooring systems while working in Health and Safety (Ireland and New Zealand) one as a result of inadequate propping one as a result of inadequate design, luckily no one was killed or seriously injured in either incident though it was a close thing. The Irish case (which involved my former employer on the hotel project) resulted in a successful prosecution of the contractor who installed the propping the New Zealand case a change in the Design Code for Composite Floors. 

One near miss and investigating two collapses leads me to take nothing for granted and to look upwards when it comes to building and construction.

[Broithe]

We do have a general tendency to just believe in (completed) floors, but I lost that belief in the late 1990s, not in a factory event, but in doing some voluntary work for a wildlife trust.

Their headquarters was in a 300-year-old three storey ex-farmhouse. There was no electricity on the top floor, but they want to turn an old storeroom up there into an office. I was roped into providing sockets and lighting up there. The whole building was very delicate, but the components was generally big and it all seemed OK, if you were careful.

Someone had been under the floor before me and had created a loose board, which was very handy - this had been to get at the wiring for the light in the office below, where a solicitor's wife was performing her secretarial duties.

I was particularly keen to avoid damage to the ceiling - a delicate lath and plaster structure, on separate beams from the floor (a good idea, as flexing of the floor does not flex the ceiling). I made a point of doing all the work under the floor first and getting the lifted board back in place, so that I wouldn't put my foot through the ceiling. "Phew, I'm safe now!"

At this point, it became clear that the ceiling in the 'new office' was not up to holding anything more than itself, so it was agreed to put the lights on the walls, which were a bit better. This involved going up and down two steps on a step ladder repeatedly. Stepping down from one task, I didn't stop as usual and the eruption of debris, plus the odd position of my leg, told me I had gone through the floor, but, even from where I was lying, I could see the 'loose board' really was in place. By the time that people from below arrived, I had managed to extricate myself and could see down through the hole to observe the state the solicitor's wife was in below.

I had stepped onto the centre of the span of one board and, not being tongue-and-grooved, that single board had given way. The wood looked beautiful, polished by three hundred years of use, but it was like a photograph of some wood, stuck onto an inch thick digestive biscuit.

Having ascertained that I was uncut underneath all the debris, I went downstairs to see the result, a yard-wide hole in the ceiling and the solicitor's wife totally submerged in the debris of three centuries storage above - one of my great regrets is not having the presence of mind at the time to record the imprint of my boot in the pile on top of her head.

We took two binfuls of debris out of her office and the hole was plated over. The rest of the floor above was found to be in a similar state - I even managed a Jackie Chan test on another part of the floor and punched through it with my bare hand - so, be warned!

The beams were found to be OK and the floor was boarded over.

I now have a permanently-running 'soft floor detection programme', whenever I am above ground level - or a cellar.

Edited April 8 by Broithe

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

Not as eventful as you lads but one time in the last century I was doing some fascia and soffit on a new house belonging to my boss at the time, the scaffolding was already in place from the blocklayers and plasterers but my boss had been moving boards to suit us, I was on the top level casually walking the line with a length of fascia and suddenly dropped through the scaffold! The boss had put a plank that was too short and barely sitting on the scaffold and I almost did severe damage to myself only for the boss was actually underneath me at the time and broke my fall with his hard hat , I was sore but alive, he was in pain

[Mayner]

Back in the day on a sunny summer morning walking the top level of a scaffold of a round a house  I noticed a beautiful girl walking by on the street below and suddenly found myself walking in thin air! 

luckily I grabbed on to a scaffold standard and lived to tell the tale getting away with a few bruises and learned to keep my wits about me regardless of the temptation!

This was back in the days when 'I was learning the trade" guardrails and toe boards on scaffolds and any formal though of safety were unknown you could easily "walk off" a scaffold if you wern't 100% alert, yet working for the same firm building several hundred houses serious accidents were practically unknown.

Edited April 8 by Mayner

[Ironroad]

And she probably would not have even noticed.

[Galteemore]

Probably used to people falling for her all the time. 

[Mayner]

Bit like a story of one of my aunts as a young woman being 'chatted up' and followed by a driver of a CIE bus who was so besotted he took the wrong turn at Harolds Cross Park and had to back-up with a busload of passengers.

I guess we were all young once!

[Broithe]

10 hours ago, Mayner said:

Back in the day on a sunny summer morning walking the top level of a scaffold of a round a house  I noticed a beautiful girl walking by on the street below and suddenly found myself walking in thin air! 

luckily I grabbed on to a scaffold standard and lived to tell the tale getting away with a few bruises and learned to keep my wits about me regardless of the temptation!

This was back in the days when 'I was learning the trade" guardrails and toe boards on scaffolds and any formal though of safety were unknown you could easily "walk off" a scaffold if you wern't 100% alert, yet working for the same firm building several hundred houses serious accidents were practically unknown.

We used aluminium 'quick' scaffolding in the factory, as it was up and down all the time. The Safety Officer started insisting on toe boards, etc, and we went along with it, even though the platforms sagged so much that tools could get kicked off just as easily as without them, except at the ends, etc.

One day, I found that there was another new problem. We had a truly giant bloke, who normally worked on site, but was in the factory during a quiet period. I was showing him an odd thing that he would be needing to deal with in the future. We were about fifteen feet up and when that was done, he left the scene, whilst I carried on with the last bit. I found that I was unable to leave the scene - my safety shoe was trapped by the rebound of the platform, when the toe board pinched it just behind the toecap. No matter what I did, I couldn't get loose. Rather than go for help with one shoe on, I shouted at a couple of chaps to come up and act as ballast to 'sag' the platform enough for me to get out.

The cause of all this was, a few days later, banned from the aluminium scaffolding as, when torqueing up a bolt, standing in the middle, he bent the platform to an alarming degree!

 

I also still have a CEGB helmet that I was wearing when I heard something small hit it.

I looked around to see what it was and found a Swann Morton scalpel that had been dropped from twenty feet above...

[Horsetan]

On 9/4/2024 at 10:18 AM, Broithe said:

....I also still have a CEGB helmet that I was wearing when I heard something small hit it.

I looked around to see what it was and found a Swann Morton scalpel that had been dropped from twenty feet above...

Block of flats, was it?

[Broithe]

31 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Block of flats, was it?

No, a circuit breaker in this sort of style. I was sitting on the ground at the bottom and it was dropped by a chap standing on the scaffolding above the top.

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Broithe said:

No, a circuit breaker in this sort of style. I was sitting on the ground at the bottom and it was dropped by a chap standing on the scaffolding above the top.

Jaysus....

 

[Broithe]

 .

2 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Just imagine it's the caravan that Father Ted, Father Jack and Father Dougal stayed in when they went on holiday!

This reminded me of an event with one of the circuit breakers described above. Actually the one where the scalpel was dropped on my head.

The bloke who dropped it was called Jack and worked for the CEGB, the ESB equivalent on the Big Island. He had no idea what he was doing, but also no understanding of how little he knew. He was also the dropper of the scalpel.

They blew up one of the breakers in a dramatic and potentially fatal way. I know what they did, but they denied it and tried to blame us, saying it had 'just blown up', so we had to go through a pointless pretence of trying to find the "reason".

The operation of these devices is fairly violent. In normal operation, though, the system stopped the mechanism from reversing until the operation had been completed, but, when hand operated, a person could defeat this delay, if they really tried,  and cause the operating tube to buckle and break the pressured porcelain column that held the interrupter head up in the air. One of their chaps had blown the centre phase up, by doing this and only narrowly avoided killing himself in the process. He admitted hand-operating it and hearing a 'funny noise', then finding that it wouldn't operate again (because the loss of gas pressure had locked it out), so he got up and stepped back, falling over the ton of interrupter lying in the gravel just behind him, having caused the 'funny noise' as it fell down. So, we had to go through the process of seeing that the stresses were well within a reasonable range, when it really was operated properly.

This involved sticking strain gauges all over the surviving breaker on the site and operating it in the manner in which they claimed to have done to the exploded one.

Anyway, the aforesaid Jack, who had no idea of what he was supposed to be doing, spent a lot of time trying to see how we were setting up our strain gauges, so that he could copy us.

The CEGB had said that they would supply a caravan to house the rather delicate electronics that we brought up with us. They had no shortage of money at all and I expected a caravan the size of a decent house, but, possibly in a further effort to stop us showing that it was not our fault, they supplied the smallest caravan that I've ever seen.

My colleague, Barry, of whom more may be said at a later date, was the strain gauge king, so I left him to it in the caravan, as there was very little space. Jack, determined to see what was going on, went in there with him, but had to crouch and lean back against the door. The 'safety officer' felt the need to say something to Barry, for some reason, and grabbed the catch of the door - caravan doors open outwards - this was all that was holding Jack in place, like a coiled spring - and Jack, prestressed against the door, shot out horizontally, like a missile, taking the safety man off his feet and carrying him a yard back into a concrete pillar, winding him so violently that we considered calling an ambulance.

I was nearly hyperventilating to the same degree...