Midland Great Western mail train

[Galteemore]

Great progress David and I know what you mean about the face! You need have no fears on that score - it’s really acquiring character.

[KMCE]

Very nice.

Beading is one of those things that sounds easy but in reality is very difficult to achieve cleanly.  I really like the former idea - that would be a big help, but may need some fine tuning for tank locos.  I may try that on my next loco as it will elimnate a lot of questionable vocabulary!!

Boiler bands are another one of those "sure how hard could it be?" details that take quite a bit of time to get right.

Very well done, as i know how much work goes into this type of detailling.

[David Holman]

Both sound mouth watering Paul. Still love the overall concept of S, with that strangely attractive track gauge of 63/64ths of an inch - presumably you still have all the stock too? If I was starting again, especially with what I know now, feel sure it would be my choice.

 However, much to like in 7mm. Yes, you still have to make a lot yourself, but there is plenty to help, both from generic bits and pieces, plus Alphagraphix and Studio Scale too. Goes without saying that, when exhibitions can start again, Belmullet will be offering running rights to any visiting locos, though the headshunt is only big enough for small tender locos and tank engines! 

 Reminds me of when you and Richard Chown were watching his Lissadell perform on Arigna Town at the Manchester show a few years back. At that point, we representing 60% of Irish broad gauge exhibitors! A few more have joined the fold since then and who knows, one day it might be possible to do a broad gauge show?

[Broadstone]

I so wish I'd got a photo of the 3 of us that day. Oh well!

[David Holman]

Tendering

 The loco is currently about as far as I can take it at the moment. No sign of the motor/gearbox I've ordered, while am still investigating things like chimney, dome, buffers etc. A bit more detailing has gone in - the sanding operating rods and filler caps, plus the reversing wheel and seats in the cab.

 So, made a start on the tender - first remembering to read what Geoff Kent says in his books and making a couple more drawings. Thus far have made the chassis/inside frames. Used 28thou nickel silver strip, with two pieces soldered together, then drilled/sawn for the axles. The outer ones use top hat bearings, with the middle one running in a set of Slater's sprung brass hornblocks.

[David Holman]

We had the first bit of sunshine this year today, after three solid days of it raining cats and dogs and donkeys. Don't you folk over the water tell me it was just a soft day - it's been 'orrible. The upshot of the grim weather is plenty of modelling time - plus the fact that, in lockdown again, we can't go anywhere either. Oh well.

 So, did some more to the tender. Had thought I'd got through most of the challenging bits, but had forgotten about the outside frames - five lozenge shaped holes and one rounded triangular one each side. Did the usual two bits of 10 thou NS soldered together and then proceeded to drill a few holes so I could fret out these awkward shapes. 

 Five minutes and five broken saw blades later, finally realised that the two pieces of metal were not completely joined in the middle, which caused the saw blades to catch and break. Plan B turned out to be a bit drastic, as I used a slitting disc in the Dremel to cut slots in each lozenge shape, so I could then nibble out enough space with the Xuron cutters to get a file in to finish off. Some unwanted excitement with the Dremel as I didn't properly tighten the collet, which caused the mandrill to vibrate and it actually then bent at right angles and flew off across the workshop.

 Fortunately no damage done, apart from needing a new mandrill. A friend who volunteers at the Kent & East Sussex wasn't as lucky before Christmas when a piece of clothing got caught in one of the big lathes, so he is now nursing a broken arm, cracked kneecap and multiple abrasions. Safety first, methinks...

 It took two goes to add the outside frames to the tender footplate, because I initially made the latter a scale foot too wide. Second lesson of course - measure twice, cut once. Have since completed the the two upper sides and rear, while also adding captive nuts, front and rear, to act as fixing points for the body and chassis.

 Now, for those of you who have read this far, a question, please. 

 Does anybody know what the front [cab end] of the tender looks like? The GSR Green Bible tells us that D16s had the Type R tender, which is not entirely unlike the ones used with the J18/19 and G2 classes, but it seems to lack the vertical plate at the front, which presumably stopped the coal sliding into the cab. There don't appear to be any tool boxes sitting on top of the tender either, though, so far, I can't find and pictures showing whether there was a coal chute on the tender front, or if the fireman simply shovelled the coal from the top. Any thoughts and info welcome, please and apologies for the poor photos, one of which shows the Z type from my G2.

[leslie10646]

David

I hope that this helps:

No.530 at Westport on 17 July 1934, taken by Henry Casserley: Copyright The Syndicate

Close-up of the complete tender.

And closer still, I think you can nearly count the planks and certainly see the toolbox?

I'll look among the photos I've scanned to see if I have another showing this type of tender.

Leslie

Edited January 6, 2021 by leslie10646

[David Holman]

Wow, thanks Leslie. That picture is in Rails to Achill and I've been trying to look at it with a magnifier, but this is much better.

[leslie10646]

Well, David, with the greatest respect to Oakwood (the publisher), it should be. It was taken from the original GLASS negative, now owned by The Syndicate.

I'll send you the original scan (at 2400dpi) by e-mail and let you look  for yourself.

Leslie

[David Holman]

New Toy

 I now own a lathe! Ok, probably a good idea for proper workshop people to look away now, because this is certainly no Cowan's, or even a Unimat. And it is small too, with a footprint barely bigger than a sheet of A4, but it only cost me £200, a third of the price of a Unimat or Proxxon and, fingers crossed, will do what I need.

 Had spent several weeks before Christmas musing over this 'mini lathe', which comes from the land of Amazon, aka China. The bed is max 135mm and the largest diameter it will turn is 50mm, but given that what I want it for is to do things like chimneys, domes, buffers and so on, then this should be more than enough, plus it is rated as man enough for brass and aluminium. It took me several weeks before I took the plunge, because I couldn't decide whether it was better to:

• a] do nothing, because my model club has a proper lathe
• b] spend real money on a 'proper' lathe or
• c] take a chance on this basic machine

In the end, another Lockdown sort of forced my hand, as I can't see me getting down the club until Easter, plus the reviews I read of the Proton and Unimat machines didn't suggest that spending the extra money would ultimately do any more than this model. Time will tell...

 I wasn't expecting it to arrive for at least another week, so was somewhat surprised to be given a well wrapped box which my wife had found in the garden waste bin! Usually on these mail order things, you get multiple alerts on line and by text, telling you of progress - as per the new LSWR locomotives book. Just as well we did some gardening, prior to the bin men coming on Monday. From the Amazon web pages, it appeared that it would be a kit of parts, but everything comes pretty well assembled and it just needed bolting to the baseplate.

 However, instructions left a bit to be desired, so for once, I resisted my usual temptation to set up and start using immediately and instead reached once more for Geoff Holt's loco building book [part two] where he takes you through basic lathe operation. Indeed, it was from reading this in the first place that I decided that a small lathe might be something I could cope with - plus this mini lathe certainly isn't going to take up much storage space. 

 The only problem this morning, when it at last was time to have a go, was finding suitable material to turn, not least because my order of brass road from Eileen's hasn't arrived yet. Eventually, managed to find some 5mm brass rod and, carefully following instructions in Geoff's book was able to spend a happy hour reducing the rod in diameter in various ways. Have since managed to turn two tapered buffer shanks for the D16.

 The main downsides thus far is there doesn't appear to be an option to add a drill collet to the tailstock and there is only a single cutting tool, which currently makes 'parting off' difficult. Hence, need to go on line to see what I can find, but even so, am confident I should be able to use my little lathe to turn up things like chimneys, domes and the like, while it is certainly happy enough with brass. Guess the main question will be how robust and long lived it will be, but hopefully, if I treat it carefully, I should get some good use out of it.

[Galteemore]

This is most interesting David. Do keep us apprised as to how it goes - one of your invaluable tutorials beckons I think! Enjoy exploring the new tool. D L O Smith (the engineering academic who made me my 5’3” gauges!) has a guide here which may help too...

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

An absolutely superb thread! Watching this develop with great interest - for very obvious reasons, the "Achill Bogies" are among my favourite all-time engines!

I had a couple of pics in the book attributed to John Sweeney, a local who is a friend of mine. They were taken by his father, P J Sweeney, and show the grandfather of one of our esteemed members here, who was a driver on the GSR, on the footplate of a D16 at Achill. Some of the detail showing on or around the loco cab, might be of use, although at that stage, of course, they are in GSR condition and details may differ from the days when they were in the MGWR livery which I think you said you'd reproduce them in.

Sadly, I narrowly missed getting a bit of stick with actual MGWR loco green on it. Bob Clements told me he would give it to me during a conversation weeks before he died, and I didn't have the chance to visit him again - so presumably it went in the bin when the place was being cleared. An old piece of wood which had been dipped in a pot of paint and wrapped in paper wouldn't have meant anything to anyone clearing out.

However, if you go for the very short-lived blue, an original example may be discerned on the end of the of the MGWR coaches at Downpatrick. Someone mentioned also the "Dargan Saloon" in Cultra. This is very probably as close as makes no odds also, although it is not original paint and therefore cannot be confirmed. 

Off-topic I know, but the Dargan Saloon carries a special livery. No coaches ever ran in ALL-blue on the Midland; locos were blue for a short time, but the few coaches repainted were blue and white with gold lining, rather than plain blue. Their twelve-wheeled director's saloon survived in the MGWR's last livery (1918-25) of dark maroon right through to the late 1950s, but that's yet another story.

Edited January 10, 2021 by jhb171achill

[murrayec]

Excellent David,

Great expansion to the workshop tools, a lathe is a must have item in model building in my view.

ArcEuroTrade do a small set of tools- 4mm, which could be suitable for your machine;-

https://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/Lathe-Turning-Tools/8pc-High-Speed-Steel-Turning-Tool-Sets

Banggood used to sell a lot of stuff for this lathe also!

Eoin

Edited January 10, 2021 by murrayec

[David Holman]

Thanks Eoin, have been looking at the Banggood site, so much checkout Arcueurotrade too. Another bit of learning as I go along!

[David Holman]

 Slow progress on the D16, as is often the case with detailing. Many thanks to those who have provided help with info on the tender, especially Leslie [of the Syndicate] and Mayner. I think I've got the general idea for the front, though it still needs the timber cladding to be added. The overall shape is quite complex, so much faffing about has gone on with various shapes cut from thin brass and nickel silver.

 Other tender detailing has included the axles boxes and springs. The former came from butchered white metal wagon W irons, while the latter came from the scrapbox. Neither are perfect, but hopefully pass muster for now.

  The loco buffers are the result of my first experiments with the new lathe. The main body is 6mm brass tube first tapered with the cutting tool, then finished with files and sanding sticks.. Next drilled the narrow end to take 1.6mm brass tube, which was itself drilled out 1.2mm to take a drawing pin for the actual buffer head. This was turned down to 8mm diameter using files in the chuck of a mini drill. Crude, but it seems to work. 

 This assembly was then soldered to a square of brass, with a rivet punched in each corner and then the whole thing stuck to the buffer beam with 5 minute epoxy. Am quite pleased with the result, not least because it shows how a complex shape can be created by breaking it down into basic sub sections.

 However, the buffers are nearly a scale two feet long overall, which caused a minor panic when I tried the loco and tender on the turntable. As can be seen from the photos, clearances are [very] tight, but it will just fit - albeit invoking the Westport rule again as, like that prototype, the loco will foul the running line when being turned.

[Galteemore]

Brilliant stuff David. Was hoping we would get to see some of the lathe output. Those MGWR buffers are quite something - very delicate looking.

[David Holman]

Things continue to move slowly on, but the list of stuff to do is getting shorter. Made the tender buffers today, so first up are a few photos of the lathe, with a piece of 6mm brass rod in place. At the risk of sounding like I know what I'm doing [hardly!], here's what I've discovered so far, so feel free to correct if you know better, I won't be offended.

 The right hand end is called the tailstock. On this mini lathe it amounts to a steel cone, with a pin point tip, which is set in a ball bearing. A wheel/handle at the right hand side moves this up to the piece of metal you are turning. This needs a small hole drilling in the centre and the cone in the tailstock is pushed into this and fixed with an Allen key.

 The business end of the lathe is the headstock and has a three jaw chuck/collet to hold the metal you are working. This is tightened by two short stainless steel rods. Needless to say, it pays to remove these before starting the lathe! Went there and got the T shirt early on. No harm done, but lesson learned.

 Between the head and tailstocks is the 'bed' and in front of this is the small table, which holds the cutting tool - in this case, a piece of hardened 4mm square steel, ground to a cutting edge. Many thanks to Eoin/Murrayec for pointing me in the direction of getting additional cutters [see previous posts]. The cutting tool can be moved in and out and side to side by two hand wheels, rather like the GW Models rivet press and like the latter, one full turn of each wheel equals 1mm of travel. However, because this is a fairly cheap and cheerful lathe, there is a bit of slack in the wheels, so cutting is not 100% accurate and you are relying on your eyes as much as anything, plus stopping regularly to check measurements with a vernier gauge.

 I also use files to finish surfaces, though with the headstock spinning at 2000rpm next to your fingers, this certainly requires care. Indeed, using the lathe certainly demands respect. I must admit that some of my modelling tends to be a bit cavalier at times, so the new lathe is forcing me to take my time, wear eye protectors and think things through a bit more. No bad thing then.

 The other photos show what else has been going on:

• On the boiler, have fettled a white metal, safety valve casting to the appropriate shape and added the operating lever from the cab from a piece of NS.
• Inside the cab, a piece of plasticard has been fashioned & scribed for wood planking for the floor
• A hinged 'fall plate' has been made from some 10 thou NS, with a piece of brass tube soldered to it. Two split pins have been set into the end of the footplate and a piece of NS wire goes through these and the brass tube, to make the hinge.
• On the tender itself, the spring hangers have been added from micro strip, fixed with cyano, while more plastic sheet has been used to make the front of the tender. Looking photos, it  seems that wooden planks form the front face and surround the coal chute
• Finally, for now, made a tender brake stand from a piece of copper tube, into which a white metal casting for the handle has been fitted.

 So, getting there and have just heard from ABC that a motor/gearbox is on its way, so hopefully will be able to get that fitted soon, along with pickups, wiring and so on. Still waiting for thicker brass bar for the chimney and dome though.

[Noel]

Holy Moly that's just stunning

[Galteemore]

Gorgeous work, David. Many thanks for the lathe tips. I have a significant birthday looming (aren’t they all right now) and Mrs G has provided me with a lathe as this is one thing that keeps coming up as a useful tool for various jobs. Haven’t used (or even opened it) yet...so any tutorials are good. Chuck key is a good tip - wouldn’t be first time I’ve started the pillar drill with the Chuck key in it.....but beside the quality pedagogy, the modelling is as usual superlative. And it’s nice to see Sir Henry nudging into a photo !

Edited January 24, 2021 by Galteemore

[murrayec]

@David Holman Loco is looking great,

as you mentioned about the chuck key- the best habit to adopt on this is- always remove the key as you remove your hand from it, never leave it in the chuck.

Also just a mention on using files in a lathe (you probably know this)- ensure the file has a handle installed, most lathe users frown on the use of files, last thing one wants to do is stab themselves in the hand if the file should shoot backwards.

Eoin

[Broadstone]

Looking great David and with the lathe you are further extending your skills! I learned the hard way about leaving a chuck key in the lathe and was lucky it flew past, rather than at me! Some people put a spring on the key so that they have to push it into the chuck and hold it there and it comes out by itself the minute they let go. But after a while (or an accident!) it becomes second nature. The lathe does open up a world of modelling possibilities, chimneys, axles, buffers etc, etc. Enjoy.

[David Holman]

As I'm still waiting for brass bar to arrive [hopefully next week], decided to make a start on the painting. The loco and tender chassis have been done in matt black, though the inside faces of the loco frames are red, as per practice in the early 1900s. Must admit that I'm more than a bit disappointed with Precision matt black paint, which shows brush marks, despite my best efforts and doesn't look as good as Humbrol.

 The loco and tender body is Halford's 'Garden Green' - the nearest I can get to what I'm told is MGWR green, apparently Great Central green is close, in the absence of colour photos, though a Google search does throw up a model loco in this shade. Initially, it looked very bright indeed, but as is often the case, once things like the tender top, footplate top, axles boxes and so on are picked out in black, it does change things. Likewise when paired with the chassis, where the wheel spokes are green, but the rims and centres black. The boiler/smokebox is a separate unit, so will not be painted until the chimney and dome are made and added. Have also ordered etched name and number plates from Diane Carney - not cheap at over £40, but as bespoke items, still a fair price I think.

 So to the lining! The main reason I haven't posted anything for a couple of weeks is that my attempts with a bow pen proved a miserable failure, even on just the relatively simple tender lining, so I really couldn't see me mastering the horrifically complicated loco lining, especially on the cab. Hence put in an order to Fox Transfers for some white/black/white transfer lining sheets, including various curves. Even so, it is proving very challenging, so the photos just show progress thus far, including the cab interior.

[murrayec]

Fantastic, the loco chassis looks great, cant wait to see the boiler on.

Eoin

[Galteemore]

How wonderful. One of my earliest memories is seeing this book on the shelf at home, so it’s lovely to see this livery coming to life on Wolf Dog. How Richard Chown would have loved seeing this running on his system! BTW, I think the lining looks great! 

Edited February 12, 2021 by Galteemore

[Broadstone]

Looking really good David. Who is to say what the exact colour was, but what you have used looks right. With all the detail and other parts picked out in other colours then it will form a whole, add a bit of light weathering and it will be real. I cant wait to see it in the flesh one day!

[David Holman]

Thanks everyone. Credit must go to our resident livery guru, jhbachill, who has been really helpful in identifying likely shades.

 Thinking about it, the tops of both the piano front/valve chest and splashers should be in black, while the outer white line on most, if not all panels on the loco itself need going over in black too.

[Robert Shrives]

Certainly mastered the Fox lining to perfection - something not to rush but you can get into the flow, but once it goes wrong is the time to stop, refresh - many choices! and then with hands steady and eyes back in focus all will flow again. 

I really look forward to seeing the whole engine, as even now it looks a star.  

Thanks for showing your labours.  

   

[David Holman]

Not perfect, Robert, but passes the two foot rule!

 Fox stuff is good, but as you say, not entirely user friendly, though this lining pack seems better than ones I last used a couple of years ago. The range is astonishing and we are all grateful for that, but trying to find what you want is a challenge. Also, the complex shapes on the D16 mean some templates are not available, so care and Microsol required to tease around corners.

[Noel]

On 12/2/2021 at 5:57 PM, David Holman said:

As I'm still waiting for brass bar to arrive [hopefully next week], decided to make a start on the painting. The loco and tender chassis have been done in matt black, though the inside faces of the loco frames are red, as per practice in the early 1900s. Must admit that I'm more than a bit disappointed with Precision matt black paint, which shows brush marks, despite my best efforts and doesn't look as good as Humbrol.

 The loco and tender body is Halford's 'Garden Green' - the nearest I can get to what I'm told is MGWR green, apparently Great Central green is close, in the absence of colour photos, though a Google search does throw up a model loco in this shade. Initially, it looked very bright indeed, but as is often the case, once things like the tender top, footplate top, axles boxes and so on are picked out in black, it does change things. Likewise when paired with the chassis, where the wheel spokes are green, but the rims and centres black. The boiler/smokebox is a separate unit, so will not be painted until the chimney and dome are made and added. Have also ordered etched name and number plates from Diane Carney - not cheap at over £40, but as bespoke items, still a fair price I think.

 So to the lining! The main reason I haven't posted anything for a couple of weeks is that my attempts with a bow pen proved a miserable failure, even on just the relatively simple tender lining, so I really couldn't see me mastering the horrifically complicated loco lining, especially on the cab. Hence put in an order to Fox Transfers for some white/black/white transfer lining sheets, including various curves. Even so, it is proving very challenging, so the photos just show progress thus far, including the cab interior.

 

Superb results on the lining. The transfers worked really well.

[David Holman]

On 12/2/2021 at 6:40 PM, Galteemore said:

How wonderful. One of my earliest memories is seeing this book on the shelf at home, so it’s lovely to see this livery coming to life on Wolf Dog. How Richard Chown would have loved seeing this running on his system! BTW, I think the lining looks great! 

This book one I wasn't aware of, but found a cheap second hand copy on Amazon and took a punt. Very glad I did too. Ok, so the photo quality isn't that great (but it was published in 1974), but there are plenty of interesting maps and diagrams - including one of how Limerick Junction was worked.

 That dust jacket is just wonderful, not least because the painting also includes a WL&WR 4-4-0 in all its glory. Wasn't expecting the text to be quite so comprehensive either, which is another bonus. Well worth seeking out a copy I'd say.

[David Holman]

Slowly, slowly...

 Progress boosted by the arrival of some brass rod and the long awaited ABC motor gearbox. The latter is a very fine piece of engineering, with the motor being a Maxxon 16/26. Small, but powerful, while the gearbox actually 'drives back', meaning you can turn the driving wheels even when fixed in place. It fits nicely too, with plenty of space all round beneath the cab floor and in the firebox to add lead sheet eventually. Not cheap though at £135, but it is quality.

 I've completed one side of the loco's lining now. A decidedly fiddly job, especially that inner panel on the cab side! One aspect that still needs attention though is that some of the lining is just one black and one white line, but hopefully that won't be too hard to remedy as this mainly occurs where it meets things like the edges of both the cab and footplate.

 And so to the dome. Ideally, a slightly smaller diameter piece of brass would have helped, but I could only get 25mm, while the dome itself is only 22mm where it meets the boiler, reducing to 18.5mm, which of course means lots of material to turn off on the lathe.

 Initial setting up was a bit of a trial and many rude words were expended on the ether while I tried to get my head round how to reverse the three cast jaws that make up the chuck. The instructions require you to open these up until they drop out, whereupon you put them back the other way round. Easy enough you'd think, but if you do that, the jaws don't centre and I spent a frustrating time trying to get it sorted until I finally found a tiny note on the diagram which showed that jaw 'B' stayed the same, but A and C needed to be reversed. Oh well...

 Anyway, once done, things progressed reasonably well, but taking it slowly is essential. On top of this, a lot of finishing and polishing is still required, plus the base of the dome also needs to be filed to the profile of the boiler. Geoff Holt's book suggests using a fly cutter on the lathe, but this is beyond my ability at the moment, so instead have laboriously done it by hand. It still needs a bit more work, but that can wait until another piece of brass rod [18mm this time] arrives so I can do the chimney.

[Galteemore]

Lovely work David. Loco is really coming to life. Those ‘helical’ gear boxes get good reviews in the Gauge 0 Guild forum. If it suits small 4-4-0s, I may well have a future candidate which could use one.....great progress with the lathe too! 

[Broadstone]

Wolfdog is really coming to life now David and is looking really attractive. I think your colour choice is very good - it just looks right. Ah domes, they are probably the most difficult items to produce on a lathe! I do flycut the base on mine but others, including Trevor Nunn, file, heat (to soften the brass) and once cooled, squeeze onto a solid bar the same size as the boiler. I've yet to try this latter method but who is to argue with Trevor's results?

I have taken the plunge to rewheel an Irish loco I have to the correct 5'3" gauge and I have ordered some Tyrconnel MGWR coaches and Slaters wheels and 5'3" axles. 7mm is tempting! We'll see what happens. Its either going to be something inspired by Liffey Junction or Athlone Midland in S, or something else inspired by Balladereen, Kingscourt in 7mm. But not both - space, time etc!

 

[David Holman]

Thanks Paul, can't argue with the new purchases - am sure you will enjoy them. Dare I ask what the 7mm loco is?

 Sounds like I'm not a million miles from what Trevor does with boiler fittings. Have never used a peg in a hole with castings, as prefer to simply wrap sandpaper round the boiler and scrub away. After, fix with 5min epoxy, which allows me to tinker while it is going off. 

 No doubt that 7mm scale is very addictive, but equally, if I could start again, then S would be very tempting!

[Broadstone]

On 22/2/2021 at 5:14 PM, David Holman said:

Thanks Paul, can't argue with the new purchases - am sure you will enjoy them. Dare I ask what the 7mm loco is?

 Sounds like I'm not a million miles from what Trevor does with boiler fittings. Have never used a peg in a hole with castings, as prefer to simply wrap sandpaper round the boiler and scrub away. After, fix with 5min epoxy, which allows me to tinker while it is going off. 

 No doubt that 7mm scale is very addictive, but equally, if I could start again, then S would be very tempting!

Richard, the engine is a J15 that I built from the SSM kit over 30 years ago. Seen here alongside my S Scale model of an earlier J15. The 7mm one generally needs restoration, detail, the correct wheels and a new chimney.