Old Lima Class A - what's it worth ?

[aramand]

Hi,

 

Well its been a long time since I've been on here but I was around back when this forum started I think so 'Hi' to anyone who remembers me - hope ye are all well! Anyway my plans for building a layout took a back seat for the last couple of years so I've not been active at all. I was going through my stock just to see what I had and decide what to do with it, I might try build a small layout at some point in the future but for now the stock needs to move from the room it was being stored in.

 

The question really is of all the stuff I have the only one I know very little about is a vintage Lima Class A (I think!!) - at one point I was wondering was it just a repaint but I think it might have been an official release. Anyone know anything about these ? There is no model number that I can see and I don't have a box so all that is on it is 'Lima Italy' underneath.

 

I put a DCC chip into it a couple of years ago and it runs very well now. As with all my stuff I'm trying to decide whether to keep it or move it on but if I was to sell this I've no idea if its worth €20, €50 or stick it on ebay as 'rare' for €500

 

BTW I can't remember exactly but I think I paid around €50 for it couple of years ago.

 

[Noel]

Hi Aramand

I have a pair of those also. Have been pondering what to do with them. If I converted them to DCC I feel I'd have to re-bogie them for four axel pickup, loose the rubber friction tyres, and get better low speed running. I think I'd also have to convert the cab to two windows . . . a lot of bother - is it worth it on such old 'toy' stock locos that don't run that great.

Cheers

Noel

[Noel]

Just realised how old my pair are - CIE. Your 33s in IR livery look a lot fresher.

 

If I can re-chassis mine to co-co and run well, I may keep them and convert the front of the cab to look more like a 001 class. Convert to two windows, remove overhead cab box, put lights on facia above centre panel between windows, remove drip rail and put a buffer beam on each end. The doors will still be in the wrong position, but for nostalgia reasons it might be nice to retain locos from my childhood if I can get it to look half like a 001 class and run well enough for DCC.

 

 

A winter project?

 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Noel

[Noel]

Still pondering what to do with my pair of CIE Lima class 33s which I have from the late 1970s or early 80s. They were supposed to look a bit like 001/A class MVs but compared to todays standards they don't really measure up. Not bad in BR livery as class 33s for their time. They've been in storage for 30 years! Three choices seem to be static display for nostalgia reasons, sell, or rejuvenate with better power units and all wheel pickups, and add the proper A class cab window arrangement and buffer beam. They are not bad runners for 70s/80s but compared to MM 141/181s they are not as smooth, nor as quiet. Decisions, decisions. I might try doctoring one of the bodies this winter and if thats a success then investigate as per DVs suggestions better motors and all wheel pickup.

[burnthebox]

Hi guys, I have only very recently got hold of an Class 33 which is DCC ready, with the intention of converting it to an A Class, now I'm no perfectionist so if the windows, doors etc. are in the wrong place so be it, if it looks anything like an A Class that'll do me, I only need to have it sprayed first, then I'll get a sound card, if possible & see how it runs & sounds, at this junction I believe there is no sound card available but I have been told mrsoundguy is working on one,

 

PS forgot to mention it's a Heljan, sorry don't know if this makes any difference

Edited January 2, 2015 by burnthebox

[Killucan2]

Why not a silver fox model,at least it would look better than a 33 which is a bobo a A ic coco.

[irishthump]

Hi guys, I have only very recently got hold of an Class 33 which is DCC ready, with the intention of converting it to an A Class, now I'm no perfectionist so if the windows, doors etc. are in the wrong place so be it, if it looks anything like an A Class that'll do me, I only need to have it sprayed first, then I'll get a sound card, if possible & see how it runs & sounds, at this junction I believe there is no sound card available but I have been told mrsoundguy is working on one,

 

PS forgot to mention it's a Heljan, sorry don't know if this makes any difference

 

Don't really know about converting it to look like an A class, but I would say it would be a lot of work! I don't think the overall dimensions are correct, plus it's a Bo-Bo.

The Heljans are lovely runners on DC and DCC. By the way, if the model has the older brass wheels replace them, they get dirty very quickly and will break your heart on DCC!

Fitting them with sound involves a little work though, here's a good video....

 

Personally, I would leave it as is and install a Class 33 sound chip! They're a lovely model and it would be a shame to hack it up.

[burnthebox]

Hi guys & thanks, now let me explain something about model trains, or real trains for that matter, if I was run over by a bo-bo or a co-co I wouldn't have a clue what it was, I just have a love for model trains & if that loco never ran with those carriages, whatever train, then I wo'nt tell the conductor !! I also have 2 Lima A Class's in cie livery, same as the 2 on Noel's post, one has a new motor fitted, & this is the Heljan I got recently,

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/OO-Gauge-Heljan-3322-Class-33-6591-BR-Blue-DCC-Ready-/390974936679?rd=1&ssPageName=STRK:MERFB:IID

[Noel]

Hi guys & thanks, now let me explain something about model trains, or real trains for that matter, if I was run over by a bo-bo or a co-co I wouldn't have a clue what it was, I just have a love for model trains & if that loco never ran with those carriages, whatever train, then I wo'nt tell the conductor !! I also have 2 Lima A Class's in cie livery, same as the 2 on Noel's post, one has a new motor fitted, & this is the Heljan I got recently,

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/OO-Gauge-Heljan-3322-Class-33-6591-BR-Blue-DCC-Ready-/390974936679?rd=1&ssPageName=STRK:MERFB:IID

 

Hear hear. I'm not a rivit counter myself.

[irishthump]

Hi guys & thanks, now let me explain something about model trains, or real trains for that matter, if I was run over by a bo-bo or a co-co I wouldn't have a clue what it was, I just have a love for model trains & if that loco never ran with those carriages, whatever train, then I wo'nt tell the conductor !! I also have 2 Lima A Class's in cie livery, same as the 2 on Noel's post, one has a new motor fitted, & this is the Heljan I got recently,

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/OO-Gauge-Heljan-3322-Class-33-6591-BR-Blue-DCC-Ready-/390974936679?rd=1&ssPageName=STRK:MERFB:IID

 

I'm not a rivet counter either, I'm just trying to convince you NOT to cut this loco up! Seriously, I'd run it as-is with some BR coaches.

By the way, I looked at the pics on Ebay and it definatley has the older brass wheels. Take my advice and switch them for the newer nickel steel sets. I got mine from

Howes models.

[burnthebox]

Still pondering what to do with my pair of CIE Lima class 33s which I have from the late 1970s or early 80s. They were supposed to look a bit like 001/A class MVs but compared to todays standards they don't really measure up. Not bad in BR livery as class 33s for their time. They've been in storage for 30 years! Three choices seem to be static display for nostalgia reasons, sell, or rejuvenate with better power units and all wheel pickups, and add the proper A class cab window arrangement and buffer beam. They are not bad runners for 70s/80s but compared to MM 141/181s they are not as smooth, nor as quiet. Decisions, decisions. I might try doctoring one of the bodies this winter and if thats a success then investigate as per DVs suggestions better motors and all wheel pickup.

 

Guys, with thedcc & all wheel pick up, would it really be that much work to make it kinds like an A Class, what exactly would you have to do to have a likeable A Class !!! Btw, what's a bobo & what's a coco (other than the night drink )

[josefstadt]

Btw, what's a bobo & what's a coco (other than the night drink )

 

A Bo-Bo is a locomotive with two two-axle bogies with all four axles powered separately (ie a separate traction motor on each axle). A Co-Co is a locomotive with two three-axle bogies with all six axles powered separately. So, in the Irish context examples of Bo-Bo locos would have been the 121, 141, B201 types, while examples of Co-Co locos would have included 001, 071 and 201 types. The 101 class Sulzer locomotives also had two three-axle bogies but the centre axle on each bogie was not powered and, as such, they were classified as A1A-A1A.

[irishthump]

Guys, with thedcc & all wheel pick up, would it really be that much work to make it kinds like an A Class, what exactly would you have to do to have a likeable A Class !!! Btw, what's a bobo & what's a coco (other than the night drink )

 

To be honest I would make do with repainting it into CIE colours, maybe redoing the front windows! But why would you bother? It's a nice loco as is.

[burnthebox]

To be honest I would make do with repainting it into CIE colours, maybe redoing the front windows! But why would you bother? It's a nice loco as is

 

Thanks again guys? So to put it bluntly, a bobo has 8 wheels & a coco has 12 wheels, right? great, got it ! as you look closely at the pics of that class 33 you'll see it's had a bang & is missing a buffer, other than that it fine, so who on here would take on the job (paid for of course) of converting it to something resembilling an A Class as I really have decided to go Irish, even though I have some UK / BR that I'll be holding onto !

[irishthump]

Thanks again guys? So to put it bluntly, a bobo has 8 wheels & a coco has 12 wheels, right? great, got it ! as you look closely at the pics of that class 33 you'll see it's had a bang & is missing a buffer, other than that it fine, so who on here would take on the job (paid for of course) of converting it to something resembilling an A Class as I really have decided to go Irish, even though I have some UK / BR that I'll be holding onto !

 

Well that changes things..... I would gut it and use the motor and bogies for a silverfox C class!

[irishthump]

Here ya go; spare bogies frames...

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/00-Gauge-Heljan-Class-26-27-33-Bo-Bo-Diesel-Bogie-Side-frames-x-4-Unused-VGC-/261710986196?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cef30bbd4

[Noel]

IMHO, the old Lima is not worth the bother as it is a poor runner. If a Heljan chassis could fit a Silver fox nicely that is the way to go. My pair of old Lima 33s already in CIE livery are such hideous runners, I'm not going to even bother converting them to DCC. Off to the attic collection for both of them along with the BR mk1s in CIE livery, except for two that I'm going to convert to GSVs.

[burnthebox]

Well lads, irishthump, Noel I actually have those on my watch list, but as I'm planning to get it converted, I was'nt in too much of a hurry about those, but not wishing to put a spanner in it, but I have a C Class on order fron SFM due some day next week, The bottom line for me is I just love those cie A & C Class's no matter how far of the mark they are,

[DiveController]

Well lads, irishthump, Noel I actually have those on my watch list, but as I'm planning to get it converted, I was'nt in too much of a hurry about those, but not wishing to put a spanner in it, but I have a C Class on order fron SFM due some day next week, The bottom line for me is I just love those cie A & C Class's no matter how far of the mark they are,

If I had a dollar for every time I heard a wish for a good quality A class, we could have skipped out the whole crown-funding discussion:ROFL:

 

Give it about 5 minutes before Mod locks the thread to avoid further rioting….

Edited January 2, 2015 by DiveController

[burnthebox]

OK Lads, I know I'm a bit late with this one but, what's a quality A Class, with pics of course,

[Noel]

OK Lads, I know I'm a bit late with this one but, what's a quality A Class, with pics of course,

 

No pics, but for me quality of running is more important than quality of looks.

 

"what's a quality A Class?"

 

A Bachmann or Murphy model A class running on a center drive double flywheel chassis, all wheel drive, all wheel pickup, that runs smoothly at crawl speeds over insulfrog points, is DCC ready, built in speaker and has all the lights. Someday!!!

 

If a loco looks stunning but runs poorly over track work its just a dust collector imho!

[burnthebox]

OK, so if all of the above 7 results in a quality A Class, what would it take, how long would it take, what's the cost, who would be willing to take on such a challenge, if that's all that's involved, to have a quality A Class, then why not get started, I have a Class 55, bought appox. 3/4 yrs. ago, DCC on board, speaker, lights, crew, all wheel pick up, all wheel drive, ( I think ) must get it down & give it a run, & maybe compare it to what's going around today, it's collecting dust as we speak !! oh, forgot to mention, a class 37, or 47, not sure which, as I said, they've been gathering dust for some time now,

Edited January 6, 2015 by burnthebox

[Noel]

OK, so if all of the above 7 results in a quality A Class, what would it take, how long would it take, what's the cost, who would be willing to take on such a challenge, if that's all that's involved, to have a quality A Class, then why not get started, I have a Class 55, bought appox. 3/4 yrs. ago, DCC on board, speaker, lights, crew, all wheel pick up, all wheel drive, ( I think ) must get it down & give it a run, & maybe compare it to what's going around today, it's collecting dust as we speak !!

 

You've lost me Ted - (A confused Fr Doughal)

[DiveController]

OK, so if all of the above 7 results in a quality A Class, what would it take, how long would it take, what's the cost, who would be willing to take on such a challenge, if that's all that's involved, to have a quality A Class, then why not get started, I have a Class 55, bought appox. 3/4 yrs. ago, DCC on board, speaker, lights, crew, all wheel pick up, all wheel drive, ( I think ) must get it down & give it a run, & maybe compare it to what's going around today, it's collecting dust as we speak !! oh, forgot to mention, a class 37, or 47, not sure which, as I said, they've been gathering dust for some time now,

 

You should read the crown-funding thread long and interesting as it is.......

[RedRich]

No pics, but for me quality of running is more important than quality of looks.

 

"what's a quality A Class?"

 

A Bachmann or Murphy model A class running on a center drive double flywheel chassis, all wheel drive, all wheel pickup, that runs smoothly at crawl speeds over insulfrog points, is DCC ready, built in speaker and has all the lights. Someday!!!

 

If a loco looks stunning but runs poorly over track work its just a dust collector imho!

 

As long as I have been involved in the hobby I have never once heard anyone make the statement that running is more important than looks. If it is not accurate in dimension or livery, putting a Rolls Royce engine under it won't make it a good model. Not at the prices that we have to pay now. Accuracy of the model when compared to the prototype it is modelled on is hugely important and the most critically important part of how the model is perceived by the prospective buying public. Nothing worse that looking at a sows ear even if it has a smooth running chassis.

 

Rich,

[Warbonnet]

You should read the crown-funding thread long and interesting as it is.......

 

Yes, we seem to be going over this over and over again. Can we not go down this road yet again please?

[burnthebox]

I thought this comes under Questions and Answers ??

[irishthump]

As long as I have been involved in the hobby I have never once heard anyone make the statement that running is more important than looks. If it is not accurate in dimension or livery, putting a Rolls Royce engine under it won't make it a good model. Not at the prices that we have to pay now. Accuracy of the model when compared to the prototype it is modelled on is hugely important and the most critically important part of how the model is perceived by the prospective buying public. Nothing worse that looking at a sows ear even if it has a smooth running chassis.

 

Rich,

 

I would have to disagree, there's a huge percentage of modellers (myself among them) who are willing to sacrifice some details in favour of model that runs well.

[RedRich]

OK, so if all of the above 7 results in a quality A Class, what would it take, how long would it take, what's the cost, who would be willing to take on such a challenge, if that's all that's involved, to have a quality A Class, then why not get started, I have a Class 55, bought appox. 3/4 yrs. ago, DCC on board, speaker, lights, crew, all wheel pick up, all wheel drive, ( I think ) must get it down & give it a run, & maybe compare it to what's going around today, it's collecting dust as we speak !! oh, forgot to mention, a class 37, or 47, not sure which, as I said, they've been gathering dust for some time now,

 

Paul asking anyone to turn a Lima class 33 into a CIE A class is like asking someone to turn a ship model into a Boeing 747. It would be like asking someone to have a tooth pulled without anesthetic. As an example, when the Hornby class 50 (which was the first of their top link diesel models) was released people noticed that the front cab windows looked wrong because there wasn't the correct slant in the shape of them. Within a small period of time an etched brass window frame was produced by one of the cottage industries and when the conversion was done it really lifted the model to a higher plain. However lot's of people never made the change as they thought their skill was not up to the job. Now compare doing a small cosmetic change like that to turning a Lima class 33 into an A Class. I don't think the man from Nazareth could have pulled it off.

 

Rich,

[Warbonnet]

I thought this comes under Questions and Answers ??

 

No problem with asking questions, but this has been discussed at length, several times, over the past couple of months. What is going over it again and dragging this thread off topic going to achieve?

 

Not having a go, but if you're interested in it, read the previous threads.

[Noel]

As long as I have been involved in the hobby I have never once heard anyone make the statement that running is more important than looks. If it is not accurate in dimension or livery, putting a Rolls Royce engine under it won't make it a good model. Not at the prices that we have to pay now. Accuracy of the model when compared to the prototype it is modelled on is hugely important and the most critically important part of how the model is perceived by the prospective buying public. Nothing worse that looking at a sows ear even if it has a smooth running chassis.

 

Rich,

 

Hi Rich, I think we may have crossed wires due to my poor use of english. I do place scale running authenticity ahead of 'looks' but only very marginally. I agree scale appearance is very important, but I suppose my point is having a great looker that doesn't run like a real train seems pointless unless some folks preference is for display case models, which I accept and respect some do. To pass the "duck test" it needs both. The A classes I've seen running so far did not have impressive running chassis and did not run well at crawl speeds over point work.

 

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

 

Same applies to operating model trains, especially now that DCC sound is available

 

"If it looks like a 141, moves like a 141 and sounds like a 141, then it probably is an 141"

 

In fairness too each of us are drawn by different aspects of the hobby and will have different emphasis in each area. The SF A class model looks enough like a real A class to pass the first part of the duck test, but for me personally, fails on the second due to the limited old style hornby or lima chassis used by most to run them. My old Lima A class fails the entire duck test! It quacks like a BR class 33, and looks like a Class 33 with orange paint.

 

Cheers

Noel

[RedRich]

I would have to disagree, there's a huge percentage of modellers (myself among them) who are willing to sacrifice some details in favour of model that runs well.

 

In this day and age we are lucky to be able to expect fantastic looking miniature models with fine running characteristics. The machinery and the workers from designers down to the workers that do the printing in the factory are working with the latest equipment and we are lucky that the models that are released are most of the time of amazing quality in looks and livery with all dimensions correct. I'm not talking about a bolt or vent missing or another cosmetic part of the model which would be nigh on impossible to scale down from the prototype. Is it acceptable for a top link model from Hornby, Bachmann, MM, Atlas, Kato, etc be lacking in correct livery overall accuracy in the dimensions just because the running characteristics are fine. Irishthump, do you think that the Lima 201 body is more highly detailed and accurate when compared to the newer MM version irrespective of the running quality of the Lima chassis to the MM one. That's what people expect today prototype to model fidelity in looks when comparison between the two is made. Any review of a model in any of the publications always gives more scrutiny to overall dimension and detail than running quality because they expect quality running in what are the current expectations for what a model should perform like. We pay enough for them because we love the hobby so what's wrong with wanting a cracking looking model. If a motor is dodgy bring it back and get it replaced. Bachmann got hammered when they released their first version of the class 37. The errors in the dimensions were so wrong that they eventually retooled the model to correct it, and I am talking about a production model not a pre - production model. I will also add that the loco was a great runner from the outset.

 

Rich,

[irishthump]

Irishthump, do you think that the Lima 201 body is more highly detailed and accurate when compared to the newer MM version irrespective of the running quality of the Lima chassis to the MM one. That's what people expect today prototype to model fidelity in looks when comparison between the two is made. Any review of a model in any of the publications always gives more scrutiny to overall dimension and detail than running quality because they expect quality running in what are the current expectations for what a model should perform like. We pay enough for them because we love the hobby so what's wrong with wanting a cracking looking model. If a motor is dodgy bring it back and get it replaced. Bachmann got hammered when they released their first version of the class 37. The errors in the dimensions were so wrong that they eventually retooled the model to correct it, and I am talking about a production model not a pre - production model. I will also add that the loco was a great runner from the outset.

 

Rich,

 

I don't for one second think the Lima 201 is superior in detail to the MM 201, and that was not my point. My point was that there are MANY modellers out there who are more than happy to overlook dimensional and livery innacuracies in a decent running model. I've seen Lima 201 bodies being placed on Bachmann chassis on this very forum!

The Heljan vs. Dapol class 52 discussion is case in point. There was much hullabaloo over the issues with the front profile of the Heljan model, but that did'nt stop plenty of modellers with the same attitude as me from buying them. Same with the early 37's, they sell like hot cakes on Ebay.

 

Plenty of modellers are more concerned with running their trains rather than looking at them.

[RedRich]

Hi Rich, I think we may have crossed wires due to my poor use of english. I do place scale running authenticity ahead of 'looks' but only very marginally. I agree scale appearance is very important, but I suppose my point is having a great looker that doesn't run like a real train seems pointless unless some folks preference is for display case models, which I accept and respect some do. To pass the "duck test" it needs both. The A classes I've seen running so far did not have impressive running chassis and did not run well at crawl speeds over point work.

 

"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."

 

Same applies to operating model trains, especially now that DCC sound is available

 

"If it looks like a 141, moves like a 141 and sounds like a 141, then it probably is an 141"

 

In fairness too each of us are drawn by different aspects of the hobby and will have different emphasis in each area. The SF A class model looks enough like a real A class to pass the first part of the duck test, but for me personally, fails on the second due to the limited old style hornby or lima chassis used by most to run them. My old Lima A class fails the entire duck test! It quacks like a BR class 33, and looks like a Class 33 with orange paint.

 

Cheers

Noel

 

Noel I understand and respect your opinion. I would fight for the right of everyone on here to be able to have their opinion and their voices listened to, even if I didn't agree with that opinion. The SF A Class can't be compared to a top link MM model as it isn't an injection plastic molded model. SF chose to put that chassis under their rtr models and they are inaccurate and awful when compared to an MM chassis.

 

There are lot's of inaccuracies in the body shape and the cab front on the SF model. So much so that SSM released some etches to improve it. Saying the SF model looks like a duck is in my opinion like looking at a duck with no beak when compared to a MM 141-181 or 071. The dimensions are so critical and can make or break a model, and it has done so in the past for some manufacturers. I remember Bachmann threatening Rail Express with legal action for their review of the 37. In the end Bachmann retooled the model and now have a healthy relationship with Rail Express even down to producing ltd editions for the magazine,

 

Rich,

[Noel]

If my old Lima 33s ran as well as the video below, I might consider hacking them to look more like A class (i.e. change windows and buffer beam), but they run like 1970s toy rubbish so I just would not be bothered. These babes below purr like GM cats and crawl like cats about to pounce! Running is important.

 

[RedRich]

Plenty of modellers are more concerned with running their trains rather than looking at them.

 

Plenty of modellers also add extra details and have their models weathered to give them more realism in the looks department. In lots of cases weathered by people on here who provide that service, because those folks like looking at their models on a layout or as static models. It's horses for courses. what someone does with their model and if it gives them great satisfaction then more power to them.

 

Rich,