BSGSV

The pair could have been going for juice? Are you sure there are LOS signs at Claremorris? The coal was in open top containers. The train was formerly coal and oil for Asahi, latterly only coal. Asahi closed in 1997. The 071 worked in on a liner, spent the day on the Ballina branch passenger and worked back to Dublin next night with the up liner. In the days when there were liners.

I think CIE just followed the "standard" length for the first batch of compos in 1951. The change to 61' 6" was to allow the compos from then on to have four 1st and three 3rd class compartments, rather than three and four respectively.

2128 was a 60' coach, and so was shorter than the other conversions, which were 61' 6". Is there anything indicating this difference in drawings or lists?

I believe sanders operating in conjunction with emergency braking is fitted on current IE and NIR railcars and electric units. The A class was fitted with sanding originally, but the equipment was generally removed within a couple of years, if gauged by photos. To judge by some of Dan Renehan's writings, CIE management were dubious of the benefits of sanding on diesels, a view not necessarily shared by drivers.

Two of them still have the delivery notices in the windows, so I would say they are as they came from the factory. CIE's painters are applying the numbers, and the chalk is to keep the lines straight. Hardly applying numbers to undercoat and it seems too shiny anyway? Seeing all seven together, helps explain why the works numbers and CIE numbers don't keep in sequence.

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I must say that I too was somewhat surprised when I read the IRN snippet the first time. Having been on the lookout since for the green roof, I can't say that I think I've seen too many in photos. Mind, I can't say I've seen too many black ones either! Mid to dark grey, depending on the wear, seems more common. A typical example: https://www.facebook.com/IrishTractionGroup#!/photo.php?fbid=852344341443770&set=gm.370422766444421&type=1&theater Note the second vehicle appears to be one of 2172-5 of 1961, a type which otherwise seem to be rarely photographed, possibly because first class was abolished on the Dublin Suburban not too many years later, and the carriages were later rebuilt as brake standards. But to my eyes it has a grey roof, as has the heating van.

What about green roofed CIE stock in the 1950's? A quote from January 1959 Irish Railfans News: "A number of diesel railcars which have recently been repainted have been noted with roofs painted black instead of the former shade of dark green which conformed with their side panelling. This trend has also appeared in repainted coaching stock as Buffet car 2420 and Compo 2145 are in traffic with black roofs". One of the two Tom Ferris colour books has a railcar which clearly has a green roof, but other stock is elusive enough to identify, especially in black and white photos!

1097 is 52' over headstocks, not 50', so I'd be looking at 1098/1099 more. The diagram of 1096 is very recognisably 1097 today, allowing for modifications since build. 1097 was converted for Knock use in 1959. It didn't receive an "AM" number until the 1960's, when special series were introduced for these and Radio Studio coaches. The GSR 1928 list of carriages (held at IRRS archives) shows 1096 and 1097 as build date "1924R". Given 1097 is a 52' vehicle, the last others of which were built in 1911/1912, and given its number in the old numbering scheme, the "R" on the build date indicates to me that 1097 was not entirely new in 1924. Given it was just post civil war, 1096 and 1097 could have been victims of actions. Could have been just a fire (oil gas can be nasty). Could be just the underframes that remained and a new top fitted. Could be a rebuild of bodywork. Alas, no "Irish Railfans News" or IRRS Journal from those days to shed light!

Er, what does that mean? As to 1097. Its number does not suggest a 1920's build date, given the new numbering system introduced in 1915, after 1131 had been built. One possibility is that it was rebuilt in the 1920's. A carriage list in the IRRS archives could be taken as supporting that to some degree, or not, depending on your viewpoint. If it was rebuilt, question is why. Haven't seen anything on that. It was also very seriously "got at" in 1959 to convert it for Knock pilgrimage traffic, (later numbered AM12). A small kitchen was fitted in one of the compartments, and an open area fitted with railcar seats (presumably to accommodate stretchers). It also acquired the Commonwealth bogies at that time. Had a spell as 605A in Departmental use. RPSI also refurbed it. Quite a career!

Bear in mind that eight vehicles (drawn from Ambulance, Snack car and "ordinary" carriages) were converted to brake standards in the 1980's, replacing CIE built stock being withdrawn at the time. These were numbered in the 194x series and one of the photos you are asking about shows one. These had a small guard's compartment at one vestible end, basically just containing a brake valve, while a toilet was re/fitted at the other end. The refit seems to have been done (if the one at Downpatrick is representative) without leaving a gap between toilet compartment and passenger area bulkhead, and what look suspiciously like CIE stock windows added (panels stripped from scrap carriages?) as per the above photo.

Been posted before, but perhaps worth another viewing. Would the "real" golden brown / orange please stand up...

25M and 27M were both allocated to the Dublin -Sligo Day Mail in 1954, so likely that they were still on that in 1956. I'm guessing they had exchange apparatus one side only? Do the two in the picture seem to be the same way around? The Amiens St picture is dated 1961 and seems very late for dark green on the last carriages. Possibly shadow from the station buildings or cloud making them seem dark?

Both pictures are scans from the Keith Pirt book. The Sligo one is dated as 1956. So pre-C class acting as pilot.

First photo: MGWR 6-wheel TPO (?), two of 1372 to 1378 series CIE timber framed compartment seconds, followed by 2405 series buffet car.

I finally located the one and only photo I appear to have taken of one of these carriages - 1908 seen on an IRRS visit to Inchicore on 17th September 1988. I then had trouble finding a scanner that worked. Anyhow, I'm not sure if the attached is any use, but there we are. I haven't found much of a description about the van, just: "The remaining space of the coach is taken up by the luggage and brake van; this is walled-off, but a corridor at one side gives a through passage...Double doors and a separate guard's door are provided at each side of the coach". Unfortunately, it doesn't say which side the corridor was on. With regard to duckets, as Mayner pointed out, the photos of such vehicles on the Loughrea branch show they (it?) still had duckets. 1908 has clearly lost its by the end. 1906/7 were converted to run with railcars "a driver's seat and controls were fitted in the guard's van, with a lookout window in the end". Given the thread on 1408 and the absence of comment from Mayner and josefstadt on the driver being on the "wrong" side in 1906/7, compared to 1408, this would suggest to me that the van on 1904-8 was therefore on the right (as I look at the photo of 1908). I would suggest the driver's side, at least, would have had the ducket replaced by a droplight - in order for him to communicate with platform staff without leaving his seat. 1906/7 were refitted with Commonwealth bogies, which dates the conversion to 1954 onwards. It would appear that the two were not used much and the controls "were removed in 1960; but two years afterwards they were again installed to work the Westport section of the Cu na Mara, providing access to the buffet car in the Galway section of the train; but in the summer of 1963 this express became again locomotive-hauled, and the "mules" are now redundant". The comments in parantheses are from D. Kennedy's paper to the IRRS as printed in Journal 37, June 1965.

Apologies. I was getting the ones with electric storage heaters mixed up. 1904 and 1442 both had them for the Ballina branch set.

I think the Loughrea coach was 1910, from the batch of 5 laminate brakes. Went on to the Ballina branch after closure of the Loughrea branch? I believe the two driving trailers (which didn't see a great deal of use as such) were put back on main line work and were to be seen on the Dublin Suburban in the 70's.

Both sides of 4402. The panels that covered the windows were quite prominant.

My attitude would be to apply one snail emblem per side, unless I had photographic evidence to the contrary. As JHB has pointed out, while there were cases of more than one per side, they were rare. Addendum: Having just flicked through Des Coakham's "Irish Broad Gauge Carriages" book, carriages with two snails on the side weren't as uncommon as I would have expected. Mind, most of them look to be older panelled carriages. CIE stock doesn't feature.

The number of emblems is not mentioned. However, the "Irish Rail / C.I.E. Railway Carriages" Facebook site, run by Noel Ruxton, has recently had a nice photo of three of the 1909-13 brake seconds, apparently just after completion, which have but one snail on the side. Well worth joining the site if you are interesting in coaching stock. The photo is an O'Dea one, now in the care of the NLI (stick inchicore and brake 2nd in the search and you'll find it: http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=inchicore+brake+2nd&type=AllFields&submit=FIND

I posted the following in another thread on this sub-forum called Liveries, that I find hard to find now. So I decided I may as well post it again. I would also like to point out that Bredin produced but 8 carriages in his time as CME. It was his predecessor Arthur Harty who introduced flush-sided coaches on the GSR in 1935. I don't know why the generic term Bredin has come into such wide useage. Mr. D. Kennedy presented a paper to the Irish Railway Record Society which was published in their June 1965 Issue No. 37. The piece was entitled "Modern CIE Coaching Stock" and I would make it clear that coaching stock is all that is being discussed in this reply. Mr. Kennedy covered mainly the vehicles constructed by CIE and, inter alia, liveries applied. He acknowledged the assistance of Mr. Thomas Tighe of Inchicore ("Railway Tommy" well known in connection with the sadly removed railway at Malahide Castle) and Mr. Leslie Hyland of "Irish Railway News", so the credentials are good. Bear in mind the Journal in those days was monochrome, so Mr. Kennedy's word descriptions are all we have to go on, except where stated otherwise below. JHB has pointed out that CIE adopted DUTC dark green with eau-de-nil lining, with examples of the colour cited at Headhunters and No. 800 at Cultra. Mr. Kennedy describes this as "dark bottle green" and it was applied to the first CIE-built coaches, Compo's 2124-9 of March 1951, 3rd's 1339-50 of late-1951 and Compo's 2130-6 of early-1952. These do not appear to have had any lining, but did have silver windows frames and a light green "1" on first class doors. 3rd's 1351-5 of 1952 were similar to above but with the addition of a narrow light green waistband. A quote from the article: "These were the last coaches so painted, but despite a number of mid-green liveries which followed, the light green band was retained". The AEC railcars 2600 onwards started delivery in November 1951 and early members appear to have had the dark green, but not specifically mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. Delivery continued for some time, such that later members appeared in a lighter green. See a photo of 2657 at Waterford Manor in the first Tom Ferris colour album, which is standing next to a disused Clayton, still in dark green. The railcar's roof is well worth looking at too! The West Clare Railcars (286-9, later 3386-9) appeared in 1952 and also appear to have had dark green, but not mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean". Mr. Kennedy then goes on: "During 1953 and 1954 various other liveries, all shades of mid green, were tested on many vehicles, but all were unsuccessful". Sadly, the shades and vehicles are not mentioned, but those concerned would have been Buffets 2405-18 of 1953/4, Compo's 2137-61 of 1954 and 3rd's 1372-8 of 1954. The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956. Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, but were in unpainted aluminium. Buffets 2419-22 of 1956 have no livery mentioned by Mr. Kennedy - were they unpainted or green? 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that Mr. Kennedy notes repaints in green started in 1958... Bulleid Railcars 2660-5 of 1957 had unlined brilliant green according to Mr. Kennedy, but Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958. 2nd's 1449-96, produced from October 1958 to 1960 were green. Mr. Kennedy notes those produced after 1958 had a light green CIE emblem "a revival of the pre-1950 practice, which was continued until the present (sic) livery was evolved in 1961". Brake-2nd's 1909-13 of late-1959 were green too, as were Heating vans 3142-52 of 1959/60. No mention is made by Mr. Kennedy of the liveries applied to Luggage vans 2549-58 of early-1961, Kitchen 2401 of June 1961 and Compo's 2172-5 of later-1961, but this comment suggests they were green. "Shortly after the release into traffic of the 2172 class compos, several coaches appeared in a new and very striking livery of black (upper panels, roof and ends); golden brown (lower panels); and white (a band just above window level)". He duly notes new Compo's 2176-9 of 1962 as being the first new coaches in the new livery. Mr. Kennedy does not say what livery was applied to existing coaches on overhaul/repaint, but presumably the prevailing shade of green would have been used?

What period are you talking about regarding colour scheme? No, there's no one book. There's information scattered around the net, IRRS journals, Irish Railway News (both incarnations) and books for those who have them.

Re mixing Mk 2AC stock and older stock. Not an issue. All passenger stock up to Mk 3 was vacuum braked, so could work together - but the gangways of Mk 2AC were Pullman type and different from the previous British Standard gangway used. So vehicles (such as Cravens and heating vans) could be worked empty on an otherwise Mk 2AC train, say to position coaches for upcoming specials. A regular combined train was the down and up Galway Day Mail which had Mk 2AC stock for the general passenger, plus a CIE TPO and heating van for the mails and their staff. No communication between the older stock and the Mk 2 part of the train. Not the best pic but... Just got to the gates in time to photograph down Heuston - Galway day mail, hauled by 086, 4th January 1993, Woodlawn, by then reduced from a block post to a gate box. The main train is Mk2AC, but at the front is the TPO with BR van providing heat and light to the Postal workers. No connection between the two parts of the train, as the BR van and TPO have British standard gangways, the Mk2's Pullman type. All vac braked of course. While timber framed vehicles were banned by this stage from main lines, this didn't apply to the TPO. Clearly the postal workers didn't count as passengers! Note the steam rising.

The two Park Royals for the W&T were 1407 and 1408. 1407 was fitted with 93 bus type seats, but was otherwise not altered. When the W&T closed in 1960, 1407 was returned to work on the Dublin suburban. The driving trailer was 1408. As the photograph shows, there was a walled off driving position built into one end. The vestibule the other end was fitted out as a guard's compartment with double doors (presumably one side only?) while about half the main body of the carriage (probably the three-bay end) was partitioned off to make a space for mother & pram traffic. The remainder of the carriage seated 54 on bus type seats. On closure of the W&T, 1408 was returned to Inchicore, and remained unused until 1966 when converted to Ambulance Coach AM15. This worked on Knock Specials and the like until 1984, when it was further converted to Brake Standard 1942.