BSGSV

Both sides of 4402. The panels that covered the windows were quite prominant.

My attitude would be to apply one snail emblem per side, unless I had photographic evidence to the contrary. As JHB has pointed out, while there were cases of more than one per side, they were rare. Addendum: Having just flicked through Des Coakham's "Irish Broad Gauge Carriages" book, carriages with two snails on the side weren't as uncommon as I would have expected. Mind, most of them look to be older panelled carriages. CIE stock doesn't feature.

The number of emblems is not mentioned. However, the "Irish Rail / C.I.E. Railway Carriages" Facebook site, run by Noel Ruxton, has recently had a nice photo of three of the 1909-13 brake seconds, apparently just after completion, which have but one snail on the side. Well worth joining the site if you are interesting in coaching stock. The photo is an O'Dea one, now in the care of the NLI (stick inchicore and brake 2nd in the search and you'll find it: http://catalogue.nli.ie/Search/Results?lookfor=inchicore+brake+2nd&type=AllFields&submit=FIND

I posted the following in another thread on this sub-forum called Liveries, that I find hard to find now. So I decided I may as well post it again. I would also like to point out that Bredin produced but 8 carriages in his time as CME. It was his predecessor Arthur Harty who introduced flush-sided coaches on the GSR in 1935. I don't know why the generic term Bredin has come into such wide useage. Mr. D. Kennedy presented a paper to the Irish Railway Record Society which was published in their June 1965 Issue No. 37. The piece was entitled "Modern CIE Coaching Stock" and I would make it clear that coaching stock is all that is being discussed in this reply. Mr. Kennedy covered mainly the vehicles constructed by CIE and, inter alia, liveries applied. He acknowledged the assistance of Mr. Thomas Tighe of Inchicore ("Railway Tommy" well known in connection with the sadly removed railway at Malahide Castle) and Mr. Leslie Hyland of "Irish Railway News", so the credentials are good. Bear in mind the Journal in those days was monochrome, so Mr. Kennedy's word descriptions are all we have to go on, except where stated otherwise below. JHB has pointed out that CIE adopted DUTC dark green with eau-de-nil lining, with examples of the colour cited at Headhunters and No. 800 at Cultra. Mr. Kennedy describes this as "dark bottle green" and it was applied to the first CIE-built coaches, Compo's 2124-9 of March 1951, 3rd's 1339-50 of late-1951 and Compo's 2130-6 of early-1952. These do not appear to have had any lining, but did have silver windows frames and a light green "1" on first class doors. 3rd's 1351-5 of 1952 were similar to above but with the addition of a narrow light green waistband. A quote from the article: "These were the last coaches so painted, but despite a number of mid-green liveries which followed, the light green band was retained". The AEC railcars 2600 onwards started delivery in November 1951 and early members appear to have had the dark green, but not specifically mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. Delivery continued for some time, such that later members appeared in a lighter green. See a photo of 2657 at Waterford Manor in the first Tom Ferris colour album, which is standing next to a disused Clayton, still in dark green. The railcar's roof is well worth looking at too! The West Clare Railcars (286-9, later 3386-9) appeared in 1952 and also appear to have had dark green, but not mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean". Mr. Kennedy then goes on: "During 1953 and 1954 various other liveries, all shades of mid green, were tested on many vehicles, but all were unsuccessful". Sadly, the shades and vehicles are not mentioned, but those concerned would have been Buffets 2405-18 of 1953/4, Compo's 2137-61 of 1954 and 3rd's 1372-8 of 1954. The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956. Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, but were in unpainted aluminium. Buffets 2419-22 of 1956 have no livery mentioned by Mr. Kennedy - were they unpainted or green? 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that Mr. Kennedy notes repaints in green started in 1958... Bulleid Railcars 2660-5 of 1957 had unlined brilliant green according to Mr. Kennedy, but Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958. 2nd's 1449-96, produced from October 1958 to 1960 were green. Mr. Kennedy notes those produced after 1958 had a light green CIE emblem "a revival of the pre-1950 practice, which was continued until the present (sic) livery was evolved in 1961". Brake-2nd's 1909-13 of late-1959 were green too, as were Heating vans 3142-52 of 1959/60. No mention is made by Mr. Kennedy of the liveries applied to Luggage vans 2549-58 of early-1961, Kitchen 2401 of June 1961 and Compo's 2172-5 of later-1961, but this comment suggests they were green. "Shortly after the release into traffic of the 2172 class compos, several coaches appeared in a new and very striking livery of black (upper panels, roof and ends); golden brown (lower panels); and white (a band just above window level)". He duly notes new Compo's 2176-9 of 1962 as being the first new coaches in the new livery. Mr. Kennedy does not say what livery was applied to existing coaches on overhaul/repaint, but presumably the prevailing shade of green would have been used?

What period are you talking about regarding colour scheme? No, there's no one book. There's information scattered around the net, IRRS journals, Irish Railway News (both incarnations) and books for those who have them.

Re mixing Mk 2AC stock and older stock. Not an issue. All passenger stock up to Mk 3 was vacuum braked, so could work together - but the gangways of Mk 2AC were Pullman type and different from the previous British Standard gangway used. So vehicles (such as Cravens and heating vans) could be worked empty on an otherwise Mk 2AC train, say to position coaches for upcoming specials. A regular combined train was the down and up Galway Day Mail which had Mk 2AC stock for the general passenger, plus a CIE TPO and heating van for the mails and their staff. No communication between the older stock and the Mk 2 part of the train. Not the best pic but... Just got to the gates in time to photograph down Heuston - Galway day mail, hauled by 086, 4th January 1993, Woodlawn, by then reduced from a block post to a gate box. The main train is Mk2AC, but at the front is the TPO with BR van providing heat and light to the Postal workers. No connection between the two parts of the train, as the BR van and TPO have British standard gangways, the Mk2's Pullman type. All vac braked of course. While timber framed vehicles were banned by this stage from main lines, this didn't apply to the TPO. Clearly the postal workers didn't count as passengers! Note the steam rising.

The two Park Royals for the W&T were 1407 and 1408. 1407 was fitted with 93 bus type seats, but was otherwise not altered. When the W&T closed in 1960, 1407 was returned to work on the Dublin suburban. The driving trailer was 1408. As the photograph shows, there was a walled off driving position built into one end. The vestibule the other end was fitted out as a guard's compartment with double doors (presumably one side only?) while about half the main body of the carriage (probably the three-bay end) was partitioned off to make a space for mother & pram traffic. The remainder of the carriage seated 54 on bus type seats. On closure of the W&T, 1408 was returned to Inchicore, and remained unused until 1966 when converted to Ambulance Coach AM15. This worked on Knock Specials and the like until 1984, when it was further converted to Brake Standard 1942.

2144 built 1954. One of four of the batch of composites not on Bulleid underframe. Downgraded to all standard 1611, 1972. Converted to bogie luggage van 2572, late 1973 or early 1974. Converted to BSGSV 3223, late 1980 or early 1981. The re-instatement of the passenger accommodation was CIE's doing. When you look at the luggage van, all they did was to take out a window bay and substitute double-doors. Relatively easy to remove the doors and put back in the panel (probably salvaged from a vehicle going for scrap). When the passenger accommodation was put back in, CIE used bus type seats (giving 43 seats if memory serves). The former standard class area became the site for boiler and generator.

3223 is a conversion from a Compo, not a standard. For further information on the same topic, see the six wheel heating van thread.

In answer to various comments on this thread: C231's numerals are genuine Iarnrod Eireann, not CIE - done by the painters at Inchicore in 1996! A39's present numbers are a combination of two fonts to give a match to those in old photos of the class. Chronological order for introduction of heating vans: 4-wheel 1955, 6-wheel 1964, Dutch van 1969, BR van 1972, Brake Standard GSV (CIE conversions) 3201 to 3218 1977/8, 3219 to 3224 1980/1. 4-and 6-wheel vans were steam heaters only and did not provide electricity for TL purposes. The Dutch vans were modified in the early 1970's to provide TL power, having been steam vans only originally. The BR vans and CIE GSV conversions all produced steam and TL power. The four wheel vans survived until the 1970's. The first batch was withdrawn the year after the introduction of the BR vans and by November 1978 only 11 remained. By that stage, the CIE conversions to BSGSV had presumably taken over their duties. The series 3201 to 3218 comprised two distinct conversions. 3201 to 3212 were Brake Standard GSV, retaining passenger accommodation in compartments which remained from the original carriage. 3213 to 3218 had no passenger accommodation, but a larger luggage area instead. Both series were converted from the first 61' 6" thirds (later seconds/standards) built by CIE in 1951/2 - 1339 to 1355. Now, there were 18 GSV's, but only 17 thirds. I am guessing that a composite must have been used for the 18th GSV, but I haven't identified it yet. 3219 to 3224 were conversions of bogie vans, themselves converted from Composites originally built 1952/4. Note that all of these GSV's appear to have been converted from carriages that did not have the Bulleid triangulated underframe or Commonwealth bogies.

I would agree with JHB that the circular windows seemed to disappear about 1980. The fifty Park Royals comprised 40 "suburban" variant (with no toilets) and 10 "main line" variant (which had a toilet either end). Suburban were 1379 to 1418, main line 1419 to 1428. The attached block (from the Autumn 1954 IRRS Journal, but attributed to "Modern Transport" which had a feature on the Park Royals in their 31 October 1953 edition), shows the variations at the vestibule ends between the suburban and main line versions. You can ignore the incorrect bogies as all Park Royals came out on Commonwealths. Six of the main line ones got converted to "Snack Cars" in 1968 (toilet and vestibule one end given over to small counter). The survivors were reconverted back or to Brake Standards in 1984 (brake valve in the former counter area).

Seems cheaper, despite the tasty postage, than others on eBay recently. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/231381159820?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT#ht_481wt_1400

1. TL (Train Lighting) is an electrical system, providing AC electric current for train lights throughout suitably equipped carriages from a vehicle equipped with a motor-alternator set (commonly called a generator van). Generally, such vehicles also provided steam heating, so were Generating (or Generator) Steam Vans, GSV. The use of AC current allowed the use of 240V AC commercially available flourescent and incandescent lamps, against the usual low voltage lamps fitted with the conventional battery + dynamo arrangement. The TL system is 3-phase. The system requires vehicles to have a connecting electrical cable between them, and full connectivity from generator van through to the end of the train to be served. As josefstadt says, if you had a mix of TL and non-TL vehicles then you needed to make sure the TL vehicles were together and coupled to the generator van, e.g. the 16:32 Connolly-Drogheda of 22/05/87 comprised 022+3217TL+1379TL+1428TL+1456+1460. As the latter pair weren't equipped for TL, they are on their own at the back of the train, allowing the two Park Royals at the front to be fed from the van behind the loco. 2. The steam vans had a boiler (or boilers) fuelled by diesel. They needed an electricity supply to pump the fuel (generally carried in underfloor tanks) to the boiler, and to control etc. the boiler (something like your domestic boiler arrangement at home).

The CIE converted GSV's in the 3201 to 3218 series appear to have been used on the Limerick - Rosslare line trains (including Limerick to the Junction). An IRRS Journal article has one of the 3201-3212 series on the 16:40 Waterford - Rosslare in May 1980, as part of a survey done of carriage allocation. Slightly later are a couple of pics from the area as attached. Apologies for the scan quality, but the first is 3205 on the 14:15 Limerick to Limerick Junction after arrival at the Junction on 16/07/85 and the second is 3216 stabled at Waterford the day before.

The BR vans do appear to have been equipped to provide TL from the off. Other sources say the engine produced 32.5 hp, not 21.5 as stated in IRN. Take your pick. CIE clearly intended to provide TL, even before they had coaches converted. 3189 at DCDR is now equipped with a John Deere engine, a replacement type that also appeared on other vans.

WRENNEIRE's post prompted me to ponder some more, about Heating vans and Generator vans. The following extracts are from Irish Railway News. I'm not sure this clarifies anything! I don't believe that a 2-cylinder Lister is fitted to any BR vans still about - I'll have a look at 3189 tomorrow. So I'm now wondering if the BR vans were just steam only to start with. Another belief about to go? May 1972 about the new BR vans: They differ from the previous bogie heating vans, 3157-66, in having only one Spanner boiler. Power for the various fuel and water pumps and also for the combustion system is provided by a diesel-electric generator set mounted in the boiler room. It comprises a Lister 2-cylinder diesel engine giving 21.5 hp at 1,500 rpm. It is permanently coupled to a generator by BKB Electric Motors Ltd, type GP, which gives 380/220 volts AC, 25-8 amps, 3-phase current. Interior lighting is by unshaded domestic-size tungsten lamps. Aug 1972: It is reported that bogie HV 3162 has been converted to GSV. There are also persistent rumours, so far not confirmed, that the present system of axle-driven dynamos and wet cell batteries as a source of power for train lighting may be dispensed with on some of the existing coaching stock. Instead, the necessary power would be supplied from the GSV. Such a step would have many attractions due to simplified maintenance and the elimination of friction due to the dynamo belts but it is more likely that confusion has stemmed from the arrangement to heat and light the new coaches by power from diesel generator vans.

I think a DV provided steam in the same way the 4-wheel heating vans did - Spanner boiler as you say. I don't think the boiler needed a "have power from a generator" per se, as it burned diesel fuel direct, but it would have had to have a control panel and pre-heat. However, I don't believe that would have provided anywhere near the power required to light a train. The Dutch vans appeared in late 1969. Shortly after the arrival of the first BR vans (January 1972) 3162 was reported in the IRRS Journal as being fitted with a diesel generator. 3158 was reported in mid 1973 with a comment that 1554 was running with it and fitted for AC (which I take to mean AC lighting and not air conditioning). The other vans mentioned in the same vein are in mid-1974 when 3164/5 were fitted and 3166 was in hands. The other vans aren't mentioned, unfortunately. I therefore am still of the opinion that the Dutch vans were steam providers only originally and were "retro-fitted" with a generator (motor-alternator would be more correct) to provide a TL supply. Listers were certainly used for TL supply, 3223 at DCDR still has a 3-cylinder Lister fitted and working.

If it was summer, there may just have been a brake standard in the formation as the heating wouldn't have been needed. Yes, I know about Irish summers...

I never knew they had oil axleboxes originally. Every day is a learning day. Love the photo of Tipperary with the oil tank off the road.

Yes, eventually. However, when the Dutch vans were built, they were only steam vans. The electrical generator was added in the 1970's, (about 1973/4?), when TL became increasingly used and more vehicles were converted to the system. The BR vans were the first to come equipped for both steam and electric.

A Park Royal and a Brake Standard Generating Steam Van, with the van against the further A class.

Would have been at the same time as CTC was extended through to Limerick, (from memory end of 1986?). One end of the pocket loop ended up in CTC territory, the other stayed within LJN's patch. The loop would only rarely have seen a crossing train by then, so full running signals weren't really needed. Shunt signals catered for freight reversal and running around from the Limerick end. The starting signals from the Pocket loop towards Waterford are, in my view, as Snapper describes. An old semaphore practice was to have arms one above the other, rather than a bracket, particularly where space was tight or speeds were low, and you didn't need to see the relative positions on brackets from afar to safely pass the signals. In such cases, the convention is arms top to bottom, read to routes left to right. Normal signals are cheaper than brackets - money talks.

My understanding is that Limerick Junction North didn't get moved/replaced. It was bricked up to provide a relay room (for the Direct Curve panel) and, possibly, the additional weight on the operating room of the panel etc. Moving the cabin location would have meant disconnecting the signals from the frame, and I don't recall seeing anything about such a disruption, but I stand to be corrected. The timber cabin at LJN is a typical GSWR hipped-roof cabin, extensively used for civil war replacements. http://jandjcottrell.zenfolio.com/f630709027 Some pictures here seem right in your period. Just the one Harper's in LJN, towards Dundrum to the north. The section between LJN and LJS had control levers. One of the photos shows two of these black/red/blue pulled forward. Limerick Junction South does seem to have been an old cabin, although even by 1980 the windows had been "got at" with aluminium replacements.

There was indeed a sub instrument at Milltown in a hut.

A word of warning about these books. I have a few of them. The pictures are indeed very good. However, apart from the spelling and grammar mistakes which are irritating, the author, more seriously, gets some of the basics quite wrong and has mis-identified equipment. You cannot rely on these books to give a wholly accurate picture of how Irish Railway signalling practice works. Given they are quite pricey, this is a bit of an issue. Given Ireland was part of the UK until 1922, not surprisingly, Irish railway signalling practice follows British practice up to that point, after which there were some divergences, both North and South. However, the basics are still very similar, indeed the current scene is very similar. For more traditional practices, British Railway Signalling by Geoffrey Kichenside and Alan Williams (various editions) would give some good basics, and Signalling in the Age of Steam by Michael Vanns is also good, but you may need glasses as the writing is small. For more modern practices Modern Signalling Handbook by Stanley Hall would be useful. All of these are relatively inexpensive on Amazon etc.