BSGSV

If it's a quiz, it's your own fault for not naming the location in the first place! I thought Bruree was bad when I saw it in the 1990's, but I'd be surprised if anything is standing now, by the looks of your 2004 photo. Bruree was (is?) distinctive, having all the appearance of the 1920's GSWR Cabin design, but with a hipped roof rather than gabled. Waterford Central is more typical of the GSWR design, but only since 1923 or so, when it was rebuilt after Civil War damage. When it was new c1906 it had a gabled roof. Think all-timber cabin in the style of Roscrea, only bigger. Waterford Central interior from the mid-1990's. The GSWR Tappet frame is probably a 1923 replacement.

Glenderg, is that what remains of Bruree these days? In passing, Navan's windows were replaced (in the 1980's?) but were originally the usual design. Bachmann's "Donabate" has windows that don't match anything much in Ireland, and the height is rather excessive for most GNR(I) cabins too.

Church Road 1987

Would it be Ballymena?

Glad you're not cheesed off JHB, and you're quite right to remind us that it is all very well to get the background, but what about the application, i.e what can the modeller use from the discussion? You yourself have shown a couple of examples of the early CIE dark green - No. 800 in Cultra and the DUTC crest at Headhunters (the latter and some screen shots from "The Quiet Man" are in the thread "Sourcing Accurate Liveries" in the "Tips and Tricks" section. "Brilliant Green" seems a bit more contentious (maybe not?). What would be your suggestion for a good approximation for that?

I could comment that if male contributors to this forum were that good at engaging with the ladies, they wouldn't be spending as much time posting replies as they do, myself included... Grey is definitely another ball game... Seriously, I entirely agree with the notion that whatever the modeller thinks is a suitable mid-green, they can happily apply it. Given we are unlikely to ever know all the experimental shades, and given different perceptions and the effects of ageing on contemporary colour prints, slides and film, there appears ample scope to justify your personal choice. I am also aware that some people (having witnessed it in preservation circles) get very exercised over what they regard as the "proper" colour. As much as anything, I have tried to illustrate that "proper" is a very elastic term in relation to CIE Green on coaches.

Having cheesed off JHB, I may as well go for the max and try it on you too Glenderg! The GSR mid-1930's coaches were introduced by Arthur Harty and I have no idea why people keep referring to them as Bredins. The latter's influence appears limited (if at all) to the last GSR coaches of 1937 (just about the time the CME changed, hence my doubt) widening the design to 9' 6" from the previous 9' 3". The initial few CIE Compo's do relate to GSR coaches, but subsequent CIE builds had different lengths and other features, an interesting discussion in itself, but perhaps not in the Liveries thread! I agree with you Glenderg, that if Mr. Kennedy (and his contributors) had wanted to relate the apple and brilliant greens as one and the same, he would not have used the two different terms in the first place. I think we are talking two different shades.

I have to disagree with JHB that there were just two CIE Greens - the one inherited from DUTC and a later lighter shade. I think things are more complicated than that. Mr. D. Kennedy presented a paper to the Irish Railway Record Society which was published in their June 1965 Issue No. 37. The piece was entitled "Modern CIE Coaching Stock" and I would make it clear that coaching stock is all that is being discussed in this reply. Mr. Kennedy covered mainly the vehicles constructed by CIE and, inter alia, liveries applied. He acknowledged the assistance of Mr. Thomas Tighe of Inchicore ("Railway Tommy" well known in connection with the sadly removed railway at Malahide Castle) and Mr. Leslie Hyland of "Irish Railway News", so the credentials are good. Bear in mind the Journal in those days was monochrome, so Mr. Kennedy's word descriptions are all we have to go on, except where stated otherwise below. JHB has pointed out that CIE adopted DUTC dark green with eau-de-nil lining, with examples of the colour cited at Headhunters and No. 800 at Cultra. Mr. Kennedy describes this as "dark bottle green" and it was applied to the first CIE-built coaches, Compo's 2124-9 of March 1951, 3rd's 1339-50 of late-1951 and Compo's 2130-6 of early-1952. These do not appear to have had any lining, but did have silver windows frames and a light green "1" on first class doors. 3rd's 1351-5 of 1952 were similar to above but with the addition of a narrow light green waistband. A quote from the article: "These were the last coaches so painted, but despite a number of mid-green liveries which followed, the light green band was retained". The AEC railcars 2600 onwards started delivery in November 1951 and early members appear to have had the dark green, but not specifically mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. Delivery continued for some time, such that later members appeared in a lighter green. See a photo of 2657 at Waterford Manor in the first Tom Ferris colour album, which is standing next to a disused Clayton, still in dark green. The railcar's roof is well worth looking at too! The West Clare Railcars (286-9, later 3386-9) appeared in 1952 and also appear to have had dark green, but not mentioned by Mr. Kennedy. The fun starts with 3rd's 1356-71 and Brake-3rd's 1904-8 of 1953 which were turned out in apple green, which was according to Mr. Kennedy "most unsuccessful; within a short time the numbers were hardly legible, and the coaches were almost impossible to clean". Mr. Kennedy then goes on: "During 1953 and 1954 various other liveries, all shades of mid green, were tested on many vehicles, but all were unsuccessful". Sadly, the shades and vehicles are not mentioned, but those concerned would have been Buffets 2405-18 of 1953/4, Compo's 2137-61 of 1954 and 3rd's 1372-8 of 1954. The introduction of the new Park Royals, 3rd's 1379-1418 of 1955 introduced "Brilliant green" a lined light green which "became the standard livery for the following six years" according to Mr. Kennedy, although I have my doubts, as absence of paint seems to have been more common. This appears to be the lighter green described by JHB. The next batch of Park Royals, 1419-28 of 1956 had the same livery but with the addition of "2" on the doors, the first coaches to have them, presumably connected with the change of designation of 3rd to 2nd class on 3rd June 1956. Heating vans 3101-41 appeared in 1955/6, but were in unpainted aluminium. Buffets 2419-22 of 1956 have no livery mentioned by Mr. Kennedy - were they unpainted or green? 2nd's 1429-43 of 1956 were unpainted aluminium, complete with a red "2" on the doors. Such was the lack of wear of this finish that Mr. Kennedy notes repaints in green started in 1958... Bulleid Railcars 2660-5 of 1957 had unlined brilliant green according to Mr. Kennedy, but Compo's 2162-71, Luggage vans 2700-65 and 4-wheel TPO's 2962-71 of 1957 were unpainted aluminium, as were bogie TPO's 2972-8 and 2nd's 1444-8 of 1958. 2nd's 1449-96, produced from October 1958 to 1960 were green. Mr. Kennedy notes those produced after 1958 had a light green CIE emblem "a revival of the pre-1950 practice, which was continued until the present (sic) livery was evolved in 1961". Brake-2nd's 1909-13 of late-1959 were green too, as were Heating vans 3142-52 of 1959/60. No mention is made by Mr. Kennedy of the liveries applied to Luggage vans 2549-58 of early-1961, Kitchen 2401 of June 1961 and Compo's 2172-5 of later-1961, but this comment suggests they were green. "Shortly after the release into traffic of the 2172 class compos, several coaches appeared in a new and very striking livery of black (upper panels, roof and ends); golden brown (lower panels); and white (a band just above window level)". He duly notes new Compo's 2176-9 of 1962 as being the first new coaches in the new livery. Mr. Kennedy does not say what livery was applied to existing coaches on overhaul/repaint, but presumably the prevailing shade of green would have been used? As I've said before, "CIE Green" offers great opportunity for debate and dispute!

I would imagine it would be hard to convert a standard Mk.3 to a Cu Na Mara given the additional window (9 versus 8) and unusual T4 bogies. Some useful pictures and information here: http://www.traintesting.com/International_train.htm

By the time they were scrapped, all the coaches seem to have had black window frames. Of the 64 seat coaches - like the Bachmann model you mentioned - 4102/8/10 ended up with grey roofs, while 4101 still seems to have had an orange one (under the grime). 4108, 4110 and 4402 are all still to be seen at Moyasta if you want to check livery details "in the flesh".

7 or 8 + Modified Dutch van. Formations reduced as vehicles expired and there was just one set by the end, of 5/6 coaches + Van. The vehicles were obtained in the early 1990's by IE, at a time when there was very little money available. IE swapped scrap "C" class locos for the coaches to minimise costs, then refurbished them at Inchicore. Initially, Mk.3 style seating was used, but later coaches completed had old seat frames recovered from Park Royal (or possibly earlier) coaches.

The Mk.2 ab stock was a mixture of former open and corridor early Mk. 2 BR built coaches, all converted to open accommodation for Irish use. They were generally used in two rakes, and there were two catering vehicles - 4401/2. These were similar to Cravens 1508/9 in having a small counter and being really only for hot drinks and sandwich type catering. 4401/2 were converted from corridor firsts and looked similar to the ordinary passenger coaches except for some panelled over windows where the counter was. 4402 (grounded body) is preserved at Moyasta on the West Clare Railway. See: http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=4886.

As JHB says, what a CIE man described as "dark bottle green" with eau-de-nil lining and lettering (as in the quiet man pics above) was used until about 1953/4. The problem with green is that, from then on, shades differed. The same CIE man told the IRRS in the mid-1960's that several (one wonders exactly how many) experimental mid-green shades were tried (presumably on small numbers of coaches each). The Park Royal and other coaches appeared in "brilliant" green, apparently different again. A period of leaving coaches unpainted was tried. Looking at the Tom Ferris colour books, the progression to the mid-1950's is marked on the railcars. Early ones started with the dark green and eau-de-nil. However, there is a photo in one of them of one of the last AEC's 2657 (one of the W&T ones) is a very bright green indeed (especially when compared to the Claytons parked next door). And the roof of that was green too! Looking through those books doesn't neceesarily leave you with a consistent view of green on other coaches. There is a further photo of a steam train at Ballaghadereen, and the two coaches of that appear to be slightly different. Of course, if challenged, the modeller can always say "his/her" green is one of the experimental shades!

I tend to describe the 1962 onwards colour as "golden brown" to differentiate it from the orange(s). I suspect the change from one to the other came when Inchicore stopped brush painting and went onto spraying, but I'm not sure when that was.

Rather more than a year or two. Repaints in the mid- to late 1980's, and I suspect that some may have gone straight from "GM Brown" to the ir livery. CIE/IR/IE "orange/tan" is probably going to be as contentious an issue as CIE Green. The latter day orange appears (to me at least) brighter than the previous orange and I would ascribe the change to Inchicore Paint Shop going over to two-pack paint in the early-2000's. The previous sprayed orange was between latter-day orange and CIE "golden brown". CIE did change suppliers over the years, and this could have led to slight variations in batches supplied too.

Given the number of industrial/private entries in "Irish Industrial and Contractors' Locomotives" (Union Publications, 1962, with amendments in a following IRRS Journal) there have been about 30 lines of 2-foot gauge in the 32 counties, and that's not counting Bord na Mona's contribution.

Is the first one the island in Cork Harbour with Camden Fort on it? Or was that even more narrow gauge?

There is a photo in an IRRS Journal showing A11 on a GAA special in Monaghan in July 1959, which I suspect is the origin for JHB's original question. The coach nearest the loco is clearly stencilled "CIE" which suggests it is of GNRI origin.