jhb171achill

Silver, green and black’n’tan all present there!

Yes, you have. main line Cork trains at that time were an absolute mixture of just about anything. Look at just about any picture of an 800 - or, for that matter, a 400, a Woolwich or anything else - on the Cork line and you'll be hard put to find any image which shows a train with more than one vehicle of the exact same type. Certainly, a uniform rake of identical carriages, like nowadays as standard, on ANY line in Ireland much before 1970 was rare to never.

Strictly speaking, if it's in the no-snail or Cultra livery, it will only be (a) sittinmg in a siding in Thurles, or (b) sitting in a museum! While in traffic, all three had snails in CIE times. As to the "dark" green, all CIE steam locosmotives which were painted green always had the dark version. So did buses, so did lorries. The post-1955 lighter shade was ONLY applied to coaching stock, railcars and diesel locomotives. And a note on that - when the railcars were introduced, dark green was the livery, so any future AEC model would need to have a dark green option plus a light green option. G601, E401, B101, A & C class diesels, and many carriages and tin vans, were silver when new, but by 1957 were being repainted the lighter green. Since CIE only inherited the rump end of the GNR in late 1958, all CIE repaints of GNR carriages were the lighter green, never the darker. Many actually weren'ty repainted until after black'n'tan came in. Now; all good rules have good exceptions. While the above is the general rule, in the early 1950s - before the light green livery appeared at all - 802 was repainted in a lighter shade, evidently not unlike the light shade introduced after 1955. A new batch of coaches of the 1951-3 style (CIE's versions of "Bredins", basically) also appeared in this livery, and unlined. It was not deemed to be successful and repaints into standard gark green of the day followed pretty quickly. Thus, in terms of actual running, 800 had two variations (GSR green, CIE green). 801 had two at least, plus a possible third. While she carried the same two liveries, at some stage her number and nameplates received a red background instead of blue. I do not know whether the red appeared before or after, or at the same time as, the livery change. 802 had original GSR livery, then the experimental colour with red plates, then standard CIE green with red plates. Tender markings on all three always had either the GSR crest or the CIE symbol.

Possibly 3D is the way forward here. I had discussed a 3D body for a standard GSWR main line corridor composite a while back, with one of our 3D experts here - must re-visit that. A compo would work well, as older main line coaches of this type were widely used also on branchlines in the CIE period. Ballaghaderreen, Kenmare and Loughrea all had lengthy periods in the 1950s where the traditional short rake of 1890s six-wheelers was replaced by a "modern" 19209s ex-GSWR composite and a tin van or six-wheeled passenger brake. So, of all the older "southern" carriage types, a vehicle of this type would appear to have a wider range of applications. The 8-compartment type shown above by Mayner, either in corridor or non-corridor versions, was to be seen well into black'n'tan days on the two spare Dublin sets of wooden stock which just aboiut lasted into the 1970s, on Youghal excursions up to about that time, and occasiobally also on Cobh suburban traffic mixed in with Park Royals. The last time I personally saw anything like that in traffic was, I think, in 1970.

It does, but I’m sure it’ll be white….!

IMG_1224.mov A few random observations this evening, as everything was getting set up within the museum…. IMG_1223.mov IMG_1213.mov IMG_1211.mov

Yellow and black in the GSRs unique 800 class livery. Black and white in CIE times, not cream. Same as all of the other (minority of) CIE logos which became green. And yes, any yellowy appearance in photos is a result of deterioration of the photo. The lining was pure white, and any discolouration in traffic was extremely slight. Remember, too, the lining currently on Maedb has been on it some 65 years, much longer than between repaints in traffic.

Yes, but I believe a connection came into Bantry on at least some occasions. I’ll actually look up a WTT!

In diesel days Bantry had two passenger trains a day each way - the same set, which was based there and did two return trips to Cork each day. In addition, two goods trains, earlier in the morning. Other West Cork lines were mostly serviced by mixed trains. An easy one operationally for a shunting layout. 1. Goods arrives, shunts. 2. Passenger departs to Cork 3. Second goods arrives, shunts. 4. First goods departs. 5. 2nd goods departs. 6. Passenger arrives 7. Passenger departs again 8. Passenger arrives, day finished!

That’s exactly why I like this era for modelling. Literally nine decades can be seen in traffic in a single photo. At least one old six-wheel postal van, built in 1877, saw in the 1960s, while you could get a two month old carriage and a seventy year old one in the same train, hauled either by a brand new C or an 80-year-old J15….. And everything in between. And the youth of today think that Cork’s 26s are old!

I defer to your greater knowledge, Mr. Provincial; of whose wares I am an extremely contented customer! This very day I found five of your kits, unmade-up, which had become mired within the disorganised primeval soup which outsiders see as my “study”! That's this coming week occupied….

WOW!!!!

Precisely. So, the takeaway has to be that thus far, at any rate, there appears to be precisely zero case for anything in this line, unless the new ore body / on which there is complete radio silence- appears…..

Mighty stuff indeed! He's got the "real" GN blue - even Cyril Fry wasn't able to manage that!

I think etched overlays are a very good option, and certainly a great deal easier than scratchbuilding. Repaints (and I've a few) can indeed look convincing enough, especially with footboards added. (GSWR platforms were traditionally much lower, as were some on the DWWR). And yes, mix and match with Park Royals and Genesis 6-wheelers, especially the full brake vans, and a tin van or two as well; and among wooden stock both heights of roofs. On my layout, I have prototypically no more than one or two of any type of coach, so all trains are a mix of whatever's about!

Goods vans and cattle trucks made up the vast, overwhelming majority of goods stock on all lines on this island. there were no massive opencast coal mines to have hourly merry-go-round trains leaving from, no huge iron ore mines, no huge petroleum transport by rail, not even the milk tankers of Devon stuck onto avery goods train. So goods vans and more. Leslie offered two variants of GNR goods vans, but these were more than similar to some GSWR and MGWR types. Like carriages and wagons, repainted British types just don't begin to cut it, especially with the dreaded grey or white roofs and black underframes. With the "H" vans now established, both by IRM and Provincial, and cattle trucks from the latter too, those two types re well covered. Once the CIE "H"s were being churned out of Inchicore, pre-CIE types disappeared rapidly. I've seen a picture of a MGWR cattle van somewhere in the early 60s, but these by then would have been very rare indeed. If there's one thing missing currently, it's the "soft-top" (convertible van), which looked like any other goods van except that it had a central part of the roof open and covered with a tarpaulin. With the tarp on, it was a goods van. With it off (for ventilation) it could be used for cattle. As for open wagons, they are the one thing where many British prototypes CAN be used. The British ones and our ones (main companies; not all!) were all standard types of designs. The West Cork system were non-standard (as with most things!), but above all the BCDR and NCC wagons were very different indeed, and require scratchbuilding. DSER ones were their own design too. But for CIE, a repainted LMS four wheeled open will suffice as a MGWR, GSWR, GNR GSR or early CIE design. As for majority, the GSWR was of course the largest constituent company in the GSR and later CIE, therefore vehicles from that stable - be they coaches, wagons or locos - were more numerous than others. I saw a GSWR open in North Wall in the 1970s, by then with a CIE roundel on it.

The IRRS publish one. I think it's also available to non-members, and might be available from one of their stands at a show. The "go-to" man is Richard McLachlan, a good colleage of Leslie of Provincial Wagons. The sort of things you're looking at are the likes of the RPSI's 1142, and Downpatrick's 836. While the former is locked up in Inchicore, the latter is to be seen in the DCDR museum. In each, you've an example of both the high-roofed and low-roofed profiles. At Downpatrick also, there is a GSWR six-wheeler under restoration. In its restored guise, it's actuall been rebuilt as a brake saloon forst, though in real life it was a full brake (No. 69) - one of the very last few to survive.

I saw them.............

Utterly crazy stuff indeed!

The "good news", of course, is that these coaches are perfect for any layout based upon the NCC or UTA. And this raises two another issues I've commented on before. Both of these refer to yawning gaps in the Irish model world, which hopefully might be addressed in future by either IRM or possibly a kit maker of the excellent quality of Provincial Wagons. 1. Coaches for the GSR / CIE era. With the exception of the Bredins and a handful of later CIE imitations, throughout the 1925-1955 period the coaching stock throughout the (Irish!) world south of Sligo, Cavan and Kingscourt was a mixture of (as previously stated) a bewildering array of pre-GSR types. While no model manufacturer, niche or mainstream, could ever be expected to produce all but a tiny handful of the various yokes rattling about the place, it would seem to be (at this stage, anyway) a glaring omission not to have at least a few of the more common types in model form. We have the Bachmann Woolwichs, and we have the 00 Works J15s, so the motive power is there already - and has been for some time - for both main and branch lines. JM Design has produced some absolutely beautiful GSWR & MGWR kits in the past, and I know of several folks who have kitbashed or amended various British prototypes to look like a generic Irish steam loco of GSR area. So, we have motive power for both main and branch lines. But there's nothing for any of them to haul! Which, of course, is behind this current thread. And with British design so dissimilar to that here in most cases, if a degree of accuracy is required, there's nothing much suitable to repaint. In recent times, the Hattons Genesis six-wheelers, being CO-INCIDENTALLY similar to some GSWR designs, have bridged the gap for branch and secondary lines, though on the latter they'd have been mixed in with bogie stock too. However, what is lacking on the main line is seconds, firsts and composites; all three variant being possible from two basic body shapes, of the more common GSWR types. While Midland and DSER types were in there too, it is perhaps unsurprisingly the GSWR bogies which lasted longest, surviving into the "black'n'tan" era and seeing service in the Dublin and Cork suburban areas well into the early 1970s; even appearing in photos alongside brand-new "Supertrain"-liveried Mk 2s. This type of thing seems an absolutely obvious choice for a model. I have even spoken to several kit makers about producing a run of them, and the GSWR design book has adequate examples. If we even had one or two variants of GSWR designs, a re-run of the six-wheeled full brake of Hattons, and a model of the Bredin coaches, we have the perfect set for the 1930s and 40s in GSR maroon, dark green for the fifties - and with new IRM lighter green Park Royals (prototypically) added in - the green trains of the late fifties to mid sixties. Plus, given the long lives many of these had, the very same variants in black'n'tan. 2. Northern modelling. Like CIE, the UTA inherited a selection of coaching stock of different origins too. It was not anything like as varied as the GSR, due to smaller geographical area meaning less stock to begin with; fewer constituent companies (only two at first, a third later); and the fact that the LMS had initiated a greater degree of standardisation than Inchicore during their ownership of the erstwhile Belfast & Northern Counties. But by the 1950s, there were BCDR designs to be seen, albeit in very low numbers as most were scrapped following the BCDR pogrom in 1950. There were ex-BNCR types, with their high roofs and flat sides - like the Midland Great Western, so completely different to anything else in Ireland, let alone Britain, that nothing short of scratchbuilding is of any service in recreating them. And, of course, MR / LMS NCC types, as seen in these pics above. Add to that the unique feature of actual British stock being brought over here too following German bombing in the war. This meant that the NCC had coaches of almost exactly the same designs and side and roof profiles - but the re-gauged ones from Britain were both narrower in width, and lower in height, and (as I well recall in seeing them) noticeably so. The only "UTA" loco so far has been 00 Works' fast-selling GNR 4.4.0 and 0.6.0, the versions in UTA livery. We must discount the "Jinty" as these were Belfast dock shunters, never regularly in traffic doing anything at all on the main line; plus short lived, plus only two of them. But again, repaints and alterations of various RTR British locos have been turned into very creditable versions of Jeeps, or "Mogul" 2.6.0s. Just as a few years ago, we saw a growing interest in the pre-1960 CIE scene, unless I'm wrong I suspect a growing interest in the pre-1970 UTA scene. I hope that I am correct in this. Either way, here we have it: for the south, adequate steam locos so far, and let's hope for more - but too few carriage options. North, and it's the other way round! We have numerous LMS coaches which just need a repaint, plus the likes of Worsley Works GNR etches, or the Silverfox K15s. On Dugort Harbour, I try to stick to the authientic, though I know this isn't necessarily for everyone. I have Hattons six-wheelers, a silver and a green tin van, and a green Park Royal for the branch, but as of yet, for the green era, the main line is what i hope will just be temporary repaints of Ratio and Hornby things. I await more IRM Park Royals, and I have a gentleman currently doing a few SSM Bredins for me. In the B'n'T era, of course, we have IRM Park Royals, Murphy Cravens, and one or two Silverfox CIE types.

They all, or almost all, had shaded numerals when first repainted from black'n'tan in the early 70s. When the background was orange, as on 141s, the shading was black. When the background was black, as on an "A", the shading was orange. It seems that the shaded end numbers lasted only a very short time on "A"s and "C"s, from memory, possibly only some ever having had them at all, and I never saw them at all on a 101. On the 121, 141 & 181 classes they did seem to last a bit longer, which leads me to think that while most probably had them replaced with plain numbers at first repaint, it's possible that others got a second painting of shaded numerals. By degrees, of course, all lost them. The other possibility is that with the GMs being almost constantly in traffic, they mightn't have had time to repaint them as often, leading to the shaded version lasting a bit longer on these. ....or a very rough approximation thereof!

Grandson-minding duties complete; so here we are again. Window spacings and shapes on LMS types were completely different from GSWR. The narrower panes sere wider on GSWR types usually, and the wider windows spaced differently. Now; given the sheer variety of types on all railways, I would not get carried away by that. However, LMS roof profiles and side profiles were worlds apart from GSWR. Coach sides for the latter were straight from cantrail down to well below waistline, then curved in. Roof curvature was more even on post 1915-ish examples, or older ones were flat-roofed. By the time the LMS came to Ireland, older coaches on the NCC were all of older BNCR design, whole planets away from either LMS or GSWR in design. Past comments, as far as I am concerned anyway, relate to the LMS designs which were in CIE livery to go with Bachmann "Woolwich" locos. In the absence of anything else, they'd do - but in the same way that a "Flying Scotsman" in CIE green might be seen as a "Maedb", or a random British 0.6.0 tank loco be passed off as Irish by painting it grey, or painting it black with "G N R" on the side. Two foot rule; fine. Looks like real thing: only on the way home from Gibneys, when half-scuttered! Not, of course, that I would be aware of that, and I wasn't even there when I didn't do it.....

Got mine today! Quite simply, exquisite. Best yet, and when referring to IRM that takes some doing!

This just keeps getting better!

In answer to a number of points raised above; In relation to design, in 00 scale if you paint many types of British prototypes in green, and do it well, as WestCork did above, you'll get a perfectly reasonable pre-1960 CIE coach. The CIE stock at the time was composed of a very varied mixture, as follows. SIX WHEELERS Former MGWR types predominated in the passenger-carrying ones, though many ex-GSWR examples were also in use. In West Cork, one or two ex-Bandon ones were still about but not used much if at all latterly. DSER types had disappeared from traffic, as had ex W & L types, by the early to mid-50s; Inchicore always seemed keen to divest the world of much that was DSER rolling stock related! On the other hand, as far as six-wheeled passenger brakes were concerned, former MGWR ones were rare by the mid-50s; GSWR types dominated. So to go to the modelling world, while MGWR passenger types oytnumbers ex-GSW ones, the Hattons Genesis stuff are fine, as although built to the British loading gauge, they are by coincidence very GSWR-esque in design. BOGIES MUCH bigger story. In the late 50s, one might summarise in saying that GSWR types dominated the wooden carriage world, with a few MGWR, an EXTREMELY few DSER, and after 1858 a few GNR types thrown in, that's not the half of it, and this is where the stories referred to above come in. The two biggest companies within the CIE umbrella, the GSWR & MGWR, each had a bewildering array of designs, many being one-offs! A very large number of carriages were of batches of three, or six or ten; our younger enthusiasts today will struggle to understand just how UN-standard things were back then, and why a photo of a typical train rarely has two vehicles the same in it! The GSWR, for example, had two distinct roof profiles. The MGWR had three, complicated by the fact that both Broadstone and later Inchicore often rebuilt them in a slightly different format. Internally, as stated, many were one-offs, and others were perhaps one of a pair the same. DSER stock had two roof types, from memory. As for the peropheral lines like the CBSCR, there were all sorts of old relics, the unusual aspects there being things like short wheelbase bogies, non-standard carriage lengths, unusual roof profiles in at least one case I can think of, and external matchboard panelling, LLSR-style. So, amongst bogies, we have non-standard lengths, non-standard internal layouts, non-standard panelling, non-standard roof profiles, and gawwwd knows what else. But wait! dear reader. There's more. After 1925, anything the GSR built tended to follow Inchicore practice of the 1918-25 period. But into the 1930s and the GSR develops their own style through the steel-panelled "Bredins", of which several varieties, some initially non-corridor, existed. In 1951/3, CIE put out a series of steel-sides, largely based on Bredins but not the same exactly. Between 1955 and 1960, the Park Royals (several variations) and the laminates (MANY variations) appear. Phew! No, we're not done. An influx in October 1958 of ex-GNR stock - again, many many types, some timber panelled but most more modern, start appearing in places like Loughrea and Bantry on occasion, and become commpnplace on the DSER section. Add to that, some are brown and some are navy blue and cream. Now, you can have a train on DSER with a dark green coach, a light green coach, a silver coach, a brown coach, a newly black'n'tan coach after 1962 and a navy/cream coach! So many designs, so many possibilities. Thus, within this fog of diversity, just about anything repainted will look the prt. Mr. Grandson awaits my attentions right now; i will contionue this later.