jhb171achill

Some good points there, which reminds me, as John suggests: for a 1900-10 period layout, "modern" 4 wheeled goods vehicles are inappropriate, as much so as an ICR on the SLNCR. Some of the earlier wagons made as kits by Studio Scale Models, the old GSWR goods brake van by Provincial Models, and the excellent range of DWWR wagons made by KMCE are the only show in town. Some mainstream manufacturers make open 4-wheeled wagons which, while technically a bit too modern, are OK as viewed under the "2-ft Rule". Provincial Wagons' SLNCR / GNR cattle truck kit is again technically too late for such a time by a whisker, but would fit in more than adequately. As John suggests, the "soft-top" or convertible van was by far the most common wagon on most (not all) lines. There were some dedicated cattle trucks which were open-topped too, short wheelbase of course. Padraig's research on all things MGWR is indeed comprehensive; in connection with my current research project I am going through his notes in detail, which he derived almost in their entirety from the boardroom records of management meetings of the MGWR; they correspond with my own notes from the same source, as noted some twenty-five years ago. Indeed, on my last visit to Padraig before his untimely passing, he kindly gave me a box of index cards of volumes and page numbers of all this stuff, which saved me much time in research. However, his own notes had some slight differences from those of the late Bob Clements - despite Bob's well-deserved reputation of probably the greatest historian and railway enthusiast of the 20th century, and his unrivalled knowledge of locomotives on all railways, the two of them both can't be right! However, such differences are very minor - one that springs to mind is that of goods brake vans, and nomenclature. O'Cuimin describes (as John quotes above) "brake vans" - but without specifying whether this is intended to imply ALL brake vans or only goods ones; if the former, passenger brake vans were indeed brown, but goods ones were elsewhere deemed to be grey, same as wagons. The 1874 type were green indeed, but also cattle drover's vans were. There is a model of one in the Fry collection, and it is a dark green. With Fry having started his working career in Broadstone, I am inclined to believe that his is the right colour, but such vehicles would not exactly get a repaint every couple of years like passenger stock would, so O'Cuimin's description of a "light" green could well be the darker shade badly faded. jhbSenior took a picture of one still in Midland markings in the 1930s (pic in "Rails Through Connemara"), and he said that while he could not be sure, as far as he recalled it was faded grey. O'Cuimin mentions "Passenger Train Wagons"; this would apply to horse boxes and flat carriage trucks, nothing else. Over a century has passed, and there are rules 1 & 2; ("It's MY layout and I can run what I want", and the "2-ft rule" - if it looks OK 2ft away, it'll do"). So minor alterations may not bother 99% of us - but the above is for anyone interested in strict accuracy. In 2089, there will no doubt be a layout with a 141 class in maroon and black........... or a brown A class with "014" in bright blue on the ends.......and I'll be pushin' the daisies and weeds up in Mount Jerome.

Well, there’s their full range of RTR GNR 4.4.0 s available from Wednesday afternoon….

Excellent info, Galteemore - you'd think you knew the area!

Hi Jb and welcome to the forum from me too. Interchangeability of rolling stock and locos..... in all cases yes, but - bear in mind that until 1925 there was virtually no mixing up except amongst wagons, and even then, not so much on some lines, but more so on others. You mentioned that you're looking at a 1910-25 period, so in terms of "foreign" stock you're a lot more limited then than AFTER 1925, when all these companies were part of the GSR and more "mixing" became the norm. Prior to 1925, carriages and locos stayed with their own companies, obviously. Thus, for a MGWR-based layout, you'd absolutely need MGWR stock - which certainly in terms of carriages, means scratchbuilding as there nothing even remotely like MGWR stock on the market, nor has there been to my knowledge ever. And believe me, I've been looking! GSWR-similar; yes - therefore if I might make a suggestion it would be that you consider either a GSWR / WLWR branch, or a Midland one after 1925 in GSR days, when you could pretend that an old GSWR coach had appeared, as one did on the Loughrea line in the 1950s, and at least one six-wheeler appeared on the Achill line in the 1930s. 1. Locomotives. Locos tended to move about far less frequently than rolling stock, as crews had to be used to them etc. So random appearances of a "non-local" loco on any line was rare, and on some lines simply never happened; on others it might be a single or exceptionally rare one-off. But it did happen. In terms of companies, many former Midland engines made their way south after the amalgamation. The much-travelled "E" class (GSR / CIE J26) was resident on the Waterford & Tramore for some years, and was to be seen on the Fenit & Castleisland lines in Co Kerry, the latter briefly, as well as parts of the West Cork system. I've a notion that one shunted at Waterford at some stage. The "K" class "Woolwiches", ordered by the MGWR but placed in service by the GSR, were regulars on Cork - Dublin, Cork - Mallow - Waterford - Rosslare, and Waterford - Limerick, as well as home territory on Sligo & Galway services. DSER locos were somewhat less well-travelled, though there were examples, mostly in other parts of the south-east. After the break-up of the GNR in 1958, for a few years (until 1963) GNR locos could be seen occasionally on the DSER line, with regular appearances on Dun Laoghaire mail trains in the 1960-62 period. But in MGWR territory, there were few examples of any type of GSWR loco appearing, and certainly never regularly. In 1934 a GSWR 4.4.0 spent a short time on the Achill branch, and the late Billy Lohan told me that a GSWR J15 was present on the lifting train on the Killala branch! So for a Midland layout i think I'd stick with some sort of real or converted J26 if your layout is meant to be a branch line, or "Woolwich" types if it's a post-1925 main line. The Triang Southern Railway L1 already mentioned will do as a 2-ft rule thing for the time being. The MGWR was all 4.4.0s and 0.6.0s. 2. Carriages. Mixed up - absolutely! But only after 1925 in GSR days, not in the 1910-25 period. But again, there was a greater likelihood of MGWR stock being seen elsewhere, notably on Cork and Dublin (DSE) suburban lines, than of non-Midland stuff straying onto the Midland. In GSR / CIE days, to be honest MOST lines retained MOSTLY their pre-grouping passenger stock, but visitors did appear, and sometimes stay. There were several ancient GSWR coaches on the West Cork system in the 1950s to closure, as well as a few Midland 6-wheelers. With the GSWR having taken over the WLWR in 1901, well before the big amalgamation of 1925, the very few surviving WLWR coaches could end up anywhere on the GSWR system even then. 3. Wagons. In pre-1925 days, places where the GSR system interacted with another railway, and places within the GSR where two old companies had met (e.g. Athlone, Athenry, Claremorris, Waterford) were obviously places where wagons especially mixed up. The Portarlington - Athlone branch of the GSWR would see as many midland wagons as it would "native" GSWR ones. Dublin and Navan, and thus the Kingscourt, Oldcastle and Athboy branches, saw many CIE wagons on the GNR parts, more so after 1958, while Clonsilla - Kingscourt would have seen more GNR wagons than anywhere else. Collooney and Enniskillen were a great place for a mixture of GNR, SLNCR, GSWR (WLWR) and MGWR wagons - possibly the best place in the country for mixtures of wagons - but pre-1925, not locos and coaches. The SLNCR would BORROW coaches on busy days from either the MGWR / GSR / CIE in Sligo, or the GNR in Enniskillen, but not in everyday use. To sum up this long-winded tome; if you're going to stick with pre-1925, and you definitely want a MGWR prototype, the J26 are the way to go, plus some sort of repainted 0.6.0 and 4.4.0 as already mentioned. (The "Woolwiches" don't come into being until 1925/6, and you're then into GSR times). If you want to diversify, here are several scenarios: first, a GSWR branch; second, base it in the 1925-30 period, when you've the possibility of locos, coaches AND wagons from other lines appearing on your layout - but you've also the best possible mix of liveries, thus: Locos Ex-MGWR ones are either plain black, lined black, or a few still kicking about in the old, and by now dishevelled, green, which had been replaced by black a decade earlier. Some will be newly painted in the GSR's all-grey livery. Four liveries for one company alone in the 1925-30 period. Amongst these, ex-GSWR ones; these will all have been grey since about 1915, as will ex-WLWR ones. Coaches Ex MGWR very dark burgundy maroon, with a slight possibility of an old one still in the pre-1918 brown. Add in an ex-GSWR one in an even darker crimsony-brown colour, plus vehicles of either GSWR or MGWR origin in the new GSR livery, initially a dark maroon not unlike the GSWR shade. Want to make it after 1927 or so? Add in the GSR's short-lived "main line" coach livery of mid-brown & cream. Wagons 1. Get sheep dip. 2. Add grey paint. 3. Drop wagons in. 4.Stir. 5. Let'em dry. 6. Weather the livin' daylights out of them. Old company markings, e.g. "G S W R", "D S E R" or "M G W R" were to be seen well into GSR days, just as wagons with "G S" could be seen in CIE days for a good while. Wagons were not a priority for the paint brush man! Stick about Collooney, and stay pre-1925, or even go back to 1903-5, and you have the most comprehensive display of liveries, as the likes of Galteemore and David Holman here will illustrate; you've all of the pre-grouping ones I mentioned above, plus the short lived MGWR loco blue, and carriages blue & white, the maroon locos and coaches of the WLWR, and guest appearances from the SLNCR, which had maroon coaches and (at THAT time) locos in green, sometimes black! Phew. Off for a cuppa. Hope that's of some help.

Now, I'm not sure where you'd get an L1 now - years and years and years ago Hornby did one - but we're talking crude 1970s stuff by today's standards. Interesting to know if there's a more modern model of that on the market.....

That's the one I meant above - couldn't just remember the class. The cab, though, is a dead giveaway as not Irish - no reason, of course, why a slight alteration to the cab couldn't be done to make it look more vaguely "Inchicorish". And it would be easy to dispense with Lima's clumsy representation of a "flying snail" the wrong shape, wrong way round, and wrong colour!

Looks good, yes.

Indeed - Clonmel has a stone wall on the right, but that pic above has a dark brick wall - so - maybe somewhere on the main line closer to Dublin? The photo is taken from a GSWR coach, and one like it is in the approaching train. A reasonably new "A" will certainly be on a main line - probably the Cork line.

Yes, far from a firing squad, given the lack of many other suitable items which can approximate as Irish with little (or nothing) more than a repaint, and subjected to the "two-foot rule", the L1 is actually one I had thought of years ago when I saw a second-hand one somewhere. Very much so, yes. And recently someone posted up a very nice conversion of a SR Adams Radial Tank" (4.4.2T), which can be persuaded to resemble both a BCDR tank loco and also a GSWR (WLWR) type. But they, of course, are not Midland! The MGWR had very unique designs, which in many cases was very unlike any other company anywhere - either in Ireland or the big island. The BNCR and West Cork systems likewise. Thus, we are indeed limited. Even a half decent G2 would have to be scratchbuilt (or a JM Design kit). Much of the MGWR was operated largely, if not entirely, by the standard 0.6.0s, the J18s. Like the GSWR's equivalent J15s, over time many variations appeared. Some sort of standard generic 0.6.0 (though not the LMS type often seen) would pass a three-foot rule given a dollop in a bucket of dark grey paint - there's a very nice Caledonian Railway 0.6.0 which might fit this bill. The Killala, Clifden, Ballinrobe and Kingscourt lines rarely saw anything but J18s; as far as Clifden is concerned, seeminlg never, apart from a few years at the start. So 0.6.0s would be a "go-to" for anything Midland. As far as carriages are concerned, unfortunately there is nothing on the market which even comes close to a five-foot rule approximation for the MGWR, as its carriage designs were so unique. Neither the Hornby nor Hattons "Genesis" 6-wheel coaches are even remotely suitable for an MGWR scene - however, they ARE very GSWR-esque. To this end, when i had initially planned the "Dugort Harbour" layout, it was initially either going to be a pretty exact representation of Westport Quay, or based on an Achill line that had managed to survive to the 1975 closures. At this point, even the JM Design MGWR 2.4.0 kit had not yet seen the light of day. So, I thought, get a couple of 141s for modern times, and a couple of Studio Scale Models J26 kits. But - carriages. That was the problem. There are KITS of GSWR types (SSM & Worsley), but nothing else. One or two Hornby standard types (that clerestorey-roofed thing that's two a penny on fleabay) could be made to look like a very passable GSWR vehicle of WLWR origin. That would do for a small branch. Thus, I switched areas to an imaginary area in the south-west somewhere - and then along came the 00 Works J15 locos ready to run - so I've abandoned a Midland background now, and Dugort Harbour is now some random backwater down in the Republic of Pat Spillane and Healy-Rae somewhere.

The good folk of Culcavey, Annahilt & Ravarnet will also need transport - or to they go by UTA?

Belfast and Dublin with harbour lines. Harbour lines which were technically on public roads at Killybegs, Ardglass, Schull and Fenit….

Yes, it is 53. In the pic of Mallow, note the GNR(I) open wagon......

Couldn’t agree more - and also, let’s admire the financial risks they’ve been prepared to take in order to accomplish it!

That’s rivers for ya…

I want to go there in a leaky-roofed, clattery, cheap plastic-seated old AEC, reluctantly shoved along litter-strewn track by a filthy B201!

A rare picture of a 1:76 scale airfix aircraft spawning Z gauge clones.

There was indeed talk about that, but the 2007/8 recession put paid to the redevelopment that had been considered. By this stage the ITG were making their own arrangements to move, hence some stuff stored at Moyasta now. The RPSI's heritage set is quietly decomposing there still, albeit following a sojourn in the old valeting plant at Heuston a few years ago.

MIGHTY stuff! Very well done! Pure Achill line.....................!

Very well done, BR!

Wow!! Truly amazing stuff as always!

Love the dinosaur!

Numbers allocated at the amalgamation in 1925 by the GSR remained unchanged throughout CIE times. Ex-GSWR carriages, numbered from 1 to 1290-something retained their numbers unaltered. Former Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway stock had already been taken into GSWR following that earlier amalgamation in 1901; all ex-WLWR stock was renumbered by the GSWR in the 900 to low 1000s series. Thus, a WLWR coach numbered, say, 98, might become GSWR 904 (numbers made up!), which would still be 904 as a "GSWR" vehicle after the 1925 amalgamation, and would retain that number up to scrapping in a weedy siding in Mullingar in 1962! Since four wheeled carriages like the long-wheelbase British ones never ran here at all, numbers for any ration 4w kits can be anything you'd prefer. Shorter wheelbase four wheelers on all lines here died out by 1890, bar about a dozen on the Midland which survived into the first decade of the 20th century; I believe a single one lasted until the 1920s - however, these were of a design no more like anything you can get in kits as ICRs are to an Australian coal wagon! However, I would give a 4-wheeler a random low number. If it is the Ration kit you're thinking of - and that's simply an assumption of mine - it is of a GWR prototype with bowed-in ends, like many Midland of England / LMS carriages, and more than a few on the Somerset & Dorset. While curved-in ends were commonplace in Britain, especially on the GWR & LMS, they were entirely unknown in Ireland apart from the WLWR - so if you're getting something like that, I'd be inclined to take it as a former WLWR coach, thus no letter suffix as it would have become GSWR stock in 1901. Number it 900-something....913, 908, 922, etc. Ex-MGWR carriages also retained their numbers, with "M" added; thus a MGWR coach numbered 67 became 67M. the MGWR had a separate numbering system for each TYPE of coach, unlike the other companies. Therefore, there could be two carriages with the same number in a train, one being first class coach No. 14 (say), and next to it third no. 14. Ex-CBSCR stock gained the suffix "B" (for "Bandon"). Railwaymen in those days referred to the lengthily-titled Cork, Bandon & South Coast Railway simply as "the Bandon", as they called the Great Southern & Western the "Southern", and the Midland Great Western Railway the "Midland". Former Dublin & South Eastern stock had "D" added - again, what the DWWR / DSER had as coach no. 34 was now 34D. In the offchance you're doing the Waterford & Tramore, the suffix is "W" - but little or nothing of W & T origin remained on that line following an influx of second hand GSR & GSWR stuff....... Hope that helps!

It's eaten several wagon axlebox bearings of mine in recent times...........

For a more unusual approach, 1950's CIE wasn't the only world with weed-grown branch lines, which only came to life in the beet, pilgrimage or GAA season - or the monthly cattle fair. In the 1940s and 1950s many rural NCC locations were the same. The above idea can be adopted to contain the very unique designs of traditional NCC wagon stock, with a repainted LMS 4.4.0 and two standard LMS coaches as ready to run loco & passenger stock. Some years ago, Nelson Jackson posted here some truly excellent scratch-built NCC wagons....... We've had places like the SLNCR and BCDR covered by several of our luminaries here - anyone fancy a mini-Dungiven or Draperstown?

In terms of design overall, especially for a small or cramped space, the attached serves well. Apart from Dugort Harbour, one of my long term plans is a small portable shunting layout based on one of my other interests, the South African Railways. One diesel loco, one steam, two carriages, two brake vans and seven wagons, and that's it. It's meant represent the sort of meandering very rural line seen across the southern part of the African continent, mostly built in the 1910-25 period, and lasting until the 1990s still with mostly or entirely steam haulage. The most minimalistic train service imaginable - three mixed trains a week, with a loco, coach and a few wagons. This same concept can be used for a Fenit, Castleisland or Ardee style operation, using an "A", a 141, a brake van and some "H" vans, or include a Loughrea-style one-coach passenger train. When planning the South African terminus with space as an absolute premium, I opted for this design. It's actually all you need. Loco and train arrives from fiddle yard, and one siding is all that's needed to shunt two or three trucks in and take away a similar number, while possibly also changing locos. For a portable thing, even for an exhibition, little more is strictly necessary. This plan is actually reminiscent of a number of termini, as per many of the plans shown above; it works as well for very rural dust-road South Africa as it does rainy stone-walled west of Ireland; albeit with drastically different scenery!