jhb171achill

I see you've got railtec to do the correct "stencil" type of flying snail - excellent, and essential for 1960s modelling, as although the roundel replaced it in 1963, wagons still with snails were about well into the 1970s! Also, for the lighter grey "H" vans, one still needed - the roundel with the white letters and the tan surround, which was applied to most "H" vans and probably all "palvans" while grey. I think SSM do that one anyway, maybe Railtec does too.

The purpose of this article is to provide a brief summary of the types of wooden stock to be seen on the CIE system between 1950 and 1975. I wrote it out, I see, some four years ago, with the intention of posting it here, but I'm not sure if I did. In any event, with "A" class locos and grey 121s about the place now, it's more relevant now than then. First, a bit of background to the wooden bodied vehicles still very much alive and well into the black’n’tan era, and in a few cases just past the “Supertrain” era. A few wooden bodied bogies of ex-GSWR origin could be seen alongside Mk 2 air-con “Supertrain” coaches for an overlap period of barely 2 years, 1972-4. By 1974, the last use was made of wooden-bodied coaches. Particularly with younger modellers in mind (to me, that’s anyone under forty!), it is important firstly to bear in mind how the average train on the average railway differed in times past. With the growing popularity of the “grey’n’green era” (1945-62) and the “black’n’tan era” (1962-72), it is easy for those seeking accuracy to try to see the past through the eyes of the present - but the railways were very different then. Since the “Supertrain era” (1972-87), plus more modern times, it is the norm for a passenger or goods train to comprise a long line of a single type of vehicle. The exact opposite was the case almost from the dawn of the railway age, and by the 1950s any train on any line - goods OR passenger, with a string of identical vehicles, simply didn't happen. Today, different types of trains have different couplings, different electrics, different corridor gangways (unless IE have sealed them over with tin foil). In the very recent past, EVERY vehicle on EVERY line, originating with EVERY company, had EXACTLY the same couplings. There was no such thing as “you can’t couple this to that” until the 1970s, when we find that Cravens or laminates can’t be mixed with Mk 2’s in traffic as the corridor connections weren’t compatible, and NIR’s 80s and Castles* weren’t compatible unless one was hauling the other dead. (* They were rarely called “450”s, and absolutely never “thumpers”, when in use!) So, during the black’n’tan and grey’n’green eras and before, if accuracy is the goal, we need to think about what’s on our layout. Instead of the common theme of trains of a number of identical vehicles – a “rake” of this and a “rake” of that – hauled by a variety of engines, it’s the other way round. Most lines had only one or two different types of loco, but rarely had two wagons or carriages behind them that were the same! So many GSWR branches rarely saw anything but J15s, thus a model would have half a dozen of them and nothing else, but no two carriages alike. If we look at many layouts, we've a large variety of locos, but uniformity in rolling stock. If even slight accuracy is desired, the opposite should be the case. There were even some branch lines which had virtually the same locos from opening to closure... Let's look at the bewildering array of carriages types, ages and origins pre-1970, or more so pre-1960. In 1925 all companies whose lines were entirely within the Irish Free State would amalgamate into the GSR. This excluded lines within the 26 counties which had a cross border element: the LLSR, CDR, SLNCR, DNGR and of course above all the GNR. Some of these companies were small (e.g. the Waterford & Tramore) and had only a few vehicles, whereas the overwhelming majority of the GSR’s coaching stock was previously owned by the DSER, MGWR and GSWR. The distinctive curved-ended stock of the erstwhile WLWR was by now already included in GSWR stock, following their earlier takeover of that concern. The CBSCR had a reasonable stock of elderly relics of their own. There’s a lot more to the overall story than this, but suffice to say, as far as the modeller is concerned, what was still running in the 1950s onwards is probably of most interest. Some existing kits can be made to look reasonably like many prototypes – and there’s practically a prototype for everything. Carriages were built in small batches – often, as one-offs or a pair or trio. Take the “Pullmans” for example – they are not known to have ever run in one train, so a “rake” of them, possibly suitable for Britain, was most certainly not the case here. In any event, there were only four. Instead, they’d put one on each of several trains. The rest of the train – anything and everything. The Midland, like the GSWR, had two distinctive roof profiles, in each case the older “flat” (low curved) and the later “elliptical” (high curved). Each company had a distinct profile for the higher version, the MGWR one being somewhat flatter on top. Window heights and shapes, and door handle designs, gave away the company origin too. DSER stock had its own window design, but was often characterised by a visibly wider chassis, and a high-pitched curved roof. The GSWR had a number of designs, with two major changes - one, when bogies started being constructed instead of six-wheelers about 1898, and another between 1903 and 1910, when the higher-elliptical roofs came into being. Since GSWR design was something like many British companies (though with more than enough differences to make them distinctive), it is these plus NCC coaches which lend themselves best to repaints of kitbashing of a number of RTR LMS types made by Hornby or Ratio kits. You might get away with some BCDR designs too. Unfortunately for modellers, there are no British prototypes, either in kit or RTR form, which even remotely resemble anything that ever ran on the SLNCR, MGWR or CBSCR, and a repaint of anything to represent a coach on the BCDR or DSER would require a seven-foot-long "two foot rule", viewed through indifferent eyesight and steamed-up glasses.... You can get away with the NCC very handily by repainting a number of RTR Bachmann or Hornby types over the years, as they were often the same design as LMS types; indeed, when a German gent decided to bomb Belfast, and in doing so obliterated many of the carriage sidings, the LMS actually sent some English coaches over to the NCC. It is therefore highly convenient that almost all of the late survivors of wooden stock on NIR were of NCC types, and literally all of the last survivors on CIE were GSWR types. The glaring omission in the model world is either a kit or RTR GSWR bogie coach of 1915-25 period. I haven't mentioned the GNR yet. Again, while the English GNR, though not in any way related to the Irish one, had some design similarities, they were nowhere near close enough to warrant use of a Gresley set on an 00 scale "Bundoran Express" - however, the "two foot rule" can apply under the above circumstances too! Some of the post-1940 GNR stock, plus GSR Bredins, can have a reasonable approximation by suitable repainting of RTR Stanier LMS coaches (ditch the silver roofs, though!), but the older wooden stock, present even in the 1950s "Enterprise" is the issue. There are, of course, brass kits of a good range of actual GNR(I) types, GSWR six-wheelers and even DNGR stock, but brass kits aren't everyone's cuppa tea. After CIE took over in 1945, they inherited a motley collection of museum pieces including many one-offs. Apart from the “Bredins” (as we now know them) or “steels” as they were then known, it was basically the same ageing stock inherited twenty years earlier by the GSR. However, from 1951, CIE started building their own stock (very much modelled on the “Bredins” initially) and this led to increasing withdrawal of the older types, the average age of which was now about forty five years. By 1950, most DSER types had been withdrawn. By 1955, only 19 ex-WLWR vehicles survived. These included the only six bogie vehicles that company ever owned – two each of thirds, composites and brake composites, all 48ft long. That’s 192mm body length in 00 scale. By 1959/60, only 7 were on the books. The distinctive design feature of many W & LR / WLWR vehicles was the curved-in ends, not used by other Irish railway companies, though very common in Britain especially on the Midland Railway & GWR. PASSENGER CARRYING BOGIE In traffic 1955 In traffic 1970 GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 188 6 26 0 MGWR 16 0 DSER Unknown – few * 0 CBSCR 4 (see note below) 0 * There seems to have been a major “purge” of ex-DSER types by CIE in 1948-50, with many ex-GSWR & MGWR types transferred to the DSE section as well as new stock and Bredins. One DSER dining car was still in use into the early 60s. PASSENGER CARRYING 6 WHEEL GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 82 13 0 0 MGWR 68 0 DSER Unknown – possibly nil 0 CBSCR 2 0 NON PASSENGER CARRYING BOGIE GSWR GSWR (Ex WLWR) 15 0 7 at least, possibly 11 0 MGWR 0 as far as known 0 DSER 0 as far as known 0 CBSCR 0 0 NON PASSENGER CARRYING 6 WHEEL GSWR 63 1 * GSWR (Ex WLWR) 0 as far as known 0 MGWR Some in use but number unknown 0 CBSCR Possibly 1 0 * This was the last wooden six-wheeled vehicle ever to operate in traffic with CIE. It was No. 79, dating from 1887, withdrawn 1970. The last passenger carrying six-wheeled coaches were withdrawn officially in 1964, but were last actually used in 1963. It is believed that the last ever use of one of these was an ex-MGWR example in which a party of Cork area IRRS members travelled from Glanmire Road to Albert Quay and back in that summer. Mail vans are not included. Several ex-GSWR mail vans were in use a few years longer in the 1970s. For the West Cork system, nineteen vehicles were on the books in 1955, though most would be withdrawn in 1957. By 1959 / 60, four remained. Two were six-wheeled, one being of interest in having its origin on the LLSR before it had been converted to narrow gauge. The other two were very short bogies, 37ft and 48ft long. These non-standard products of the West Cork’s workshops at Albert Quay were for the sharply curved Courtmacsherry branch, where such relics lived on because newer coaches were too long for the curves. None ever strayed into the non-CBSCR world, thus models of these are only historically appropriate on a West Cork-based layout. Almost every Irish company had 30ft as their standard length for six-wheeled coaches, including the GSWR, DSER, WLWR and MGWR. So a 30ft scale chassis would be a good thing to have available even as a kit. That’s 120mm body length. The BCDR was different with several longer variations, and the CBSCR had several shorter versions. Four wheel coaches, to digress a little, were long gone from almost all Irish lines by around 1900, though the MGWR had some in traffic as late as the early 1920s. These were short, rather than the long-wheelbase ones seen on Ratio kits, or some of the new Hornby "old" carriages. However, the little three-compartment Hornby ones, as sold with "Thomas" sets and the like, while OK length wise, are only appropriate for a layout maybe set in 1880 - for which the coachwork design is too modern. Thus, in an Irish context, even in a reliveried state they are no more like anything that ever ran here as a French TGV is! Similarly, the long-wheelbase four wheelers sold as (very reasonably priced) Ratio (or is it Wills?) plastic kits, would need to be made up as six-wheelers, as none of the railways here ever had long-wheelbase four wheelers at all. (Though, several six-wheelers on, I think, the GSWR, ended up operating with the centre pair of wheels removed!). Vehicles of ex-GSWR and WLWR origin just had their number inherited from GSWR days. Ex-MGWR carriages had “M” added, thus MGWR No. 124 was now 124M after 1925, while ex-Bandon stock had “B”, and DSER stock “D” after their numbers. Construction of some of the very first coaches technically introduced by the GSR had been started by the GSWR, and their “architecture” would be continued for several years – thus the very few "pre-Bredin" coaches completed by the GSR are identical in design to GSWR types. Only after the “steels” came in, did a distinct GSR style emerge – very closely like the English LMS, whose lined maroon livery Inchicore would copy almost exactly from about 1933. Early CIE types introduced 1951-3 would be similar to these “Bredins”, with the later “laminates” built between 1956 and 1959 being developments of these. And then we’re into the era of the Cravens, and after that it all went downhill fast as we stopped building our own stuff, and started importing standard BR Mk 2 metallic vessels….. The Supertrain era is born! And jhb171achill slips into a coma; too old to hear new chimes, as yer man said. And they all lived happily ever after. Now finish yer cocoa. Hope this is of use to someone somewhere!

JHB is highly impressed with it, I am reliably informed!

Dey wouldn’t have got to Wisht Caaark, boy, so they’re only selling them to Kerrymen…..

Superb, flange!

A rare beast, indeed; colour pics of them are as rare as hen's teeth, as the green livery was only applied to very few, and was very short-lived. It seems that the idea was to use them on mail trans between Cork and Tralee. This green livery, which included (coach-like) black ends and chassis (for once!), and probably a dark grey roof, only appeared in the early 60s and would have repainted grey after the "snails" were replaced by "roundels" from 1963 onwards. A note in either the IRN or IRRS Journal suggests that 100 were painted this way - that is certainly incorrect. It's possible that was at one time a plan, but if so it was never executed. I seem to recall seeing somewhere in the past a note that in fact only four or six were thus treated.

I thought that very same thing too! Renumbering would probably be easiest by rubbing off the "2" in A12, or the second "5" of A55, and putting a "1" there - A11 or A51. .....................and colourful language from the driver!

In all reality, a black "A", with or without yellow patch (some had them, but some didn't; not all would ever get them) is as essential to any 1960s layout as an ICR or a 201 are to a 2022 layout. I'm sort of half considering getting another.............better get my act together, as there are few left.

Same as Accurasixwheelers?

I’ve three of those yokes and that’s exactly the way I want them to end up! What ends did you use?

But they’ve flat ends? I’ve one unmade, but it has curved ends, which isn’t really suitable for Ireland. The above coaches have the correct flat ends for all Irish lines bar the WLWR. Which, of course, means that they CERTAINLY “look the business”! Any more info?

Cyril Fry used LNWR transfers on quite a few Irish models! I’m in coach-heaven: what are those?

I was going to try to form one out of a sheet of plastic. If it looks OK, I’ll add torpedo vents and leave it at that.

It’s 1946, and CIE isn’t a year old. Most carriages are still in GSR livery, a handful still bearing the short-lived brown & cream. Here, our intrepid photographer, Box Brownie* in hand, captures this 1880s GSWR beauty on the Dugort Harbour branch set. * Anyone under 50 years old, google “Box Brownie” - and it’s NOT some sort of carry-out from Starbucks. Recently I got 3 of these old Hornby relics. The wheels are too coarse for code 75 track, but that’s easily remedied. A coat of green paint, a few “snails”, new roof and they’ll do until IRM have a range of Irish wooden-bodied bogies(!) The brake 3rd version of this coach, (and my other two are that type), if it is fitted with an arc “flat” roof, a la pre-1903 GSWR stock, actually is close enough to a pair of WLWR brake thirds which managed to last until 1954 & 1955, if memory serves me right. The full third, shown in pic, actually doesn’t look like anything Irish. Point of note: British lines widely made use of curved-in ENDS on carriages, especially the GWR and Midland Railway - but this feature was entirely absent from all Irish railway companies, bar a few of the WLWR’s stock.

Problem solved, then! Railtec to the rescue - excellent!

Absolute beauty - excellent model. Perfect for a small shunting layout. Never mind the "Irish" bit - a loco such as this would be at home in an industrial type of setting in almost any country on the planet!

I might add that in the short-lived GSR chocolate brown & cream "main line" livery, a couple of years either side of 1930, crest info was the same, and while the lining was in the same positions, all three lines were black; one line separating the lower brown from upper cream, and the upper two lines contrasting with the cream background. ALSO forgot to add - if converting any of those Bachmann or Hornby coaches to look GSR-ish (or, indeed, NCC), get rid of the light grey or shiny silver roofs! They should be a matt dark grey.

The above highly accurate (!!!) scale drawings show (upper) correct style of GSR coach lining post-1933 or so. Lower shows position of crests. On a recent thread somewhere, mention was made of British stock RTR which could approximate, given a very long two-foot rule, for Irish, and the subject of Bachmann LMS coaches came up. As bought, these are obviously in LMS livery, with a crest in the middle as shown in pink above. The GSR used TWO crests on bogie stock, as had the GSWR before them, at least till the early 40s. "Beware of imitators"; some warnings read - some LMS models bought off the shelf have all sorts of livery inaccuracies, usually involving the lining. But the style shown above, which is correct for GSR, is reproduced accurately on some of these models. So, in order to "convert" a LMS Bachmann coach to GSR, remove the (pink) LMS crest and apply two (green) GSR ones, plus of course the "L M S" lettering. With the allowance of a "two foot rule", the class designation numbers on the doors will do, although in accuracy terms the LMS ones are a bit too small.

Didn't know SSM did them - they're not advertised (Des - could you comment?)...... There are original GSWR, DSER & MGWR crests in the Railway Museum (Headhunters) in Enniskillen; also both UTA crests. All ripe for the measuring. The Malahide Model Railway Museum also has crests of GNR, DSER and MGWR.

This afternoon I was discussing GSR carriage liveries with some esteemed colleagues, and I mentioned that I had a GSR crest mounted on a board which could be photographed or scanned by someone who might be able to make scale transfers of it. If anyone is interested in this, let me know. At the moment I have no need for them, as I'm fixed in a sort of 1955-68 mode, but in the long run if I get more "old" wagons, like KCME's and other offerings, and if the Hornby or Hattons 6-wheelers are looking good, maybe GSR liveries. With growing interest in the "grey'n'green" era, before the "black'n'tan" era, maybe there might be a developing interest in 1930s / 40s times - if so, a transfer of this crest would be needed. Many of us have the grey "00 Works" J15s, and who knows what other offerings might appear. Add old wagons, Provincial's old guards' vans and other wagons, and six-wheel coaches, and you've everything you need for a GSR-based layout. I would be interested in anyone's thoughts on making up GSR transfers. I know of two people who might be interested in using them at the moment.

I'll hopefully get an expert eye over it tomorrow - meantime I am expecting four more six-wheeled vehicles, but given the provenance of the maker of them, I know I won't have any worries. Anyone have any experience of running the new Hornby six-wheelers?

Good to see things like this which financially benefit one of our less known and in my opinion very underrated railway attractions. My copy is en route, I believe…

Is this now the normal 071 grey? When the 26 class railcars first appeared they also had pale grey bogies - I thought they looked odd, but like a “silver” tin van forty years before, got very dirty very quickly. This seems an improvement to the 201 livery.

That’s where I pick up a HUGE amount of info - examining details on old photos. Very often it’s a case of “never mind the “what a great photo!” stuff", but examining nooks, crannies and details within that photograph. In terms of wagon plates, many old BNCR and MRNCC plates would be replaced with LMSNCC ones. A wagon with the latter on it might well have been built by the LMS NCC, but equally either of its predecessors. And there were two styles of NCC lettering on those purely within LMS days, too. Without seeing the whole wagon, my money would be on it being of BNCR origin and the low number would suggest that as almost a certainty. PS: see if you can enlarge the axle box cover - I suspect it may say “BNCR” on it. Like the BCDR, CBSCR and DSER, the NCC wagon designs were for the most part entirely unlike anything else, and nothing like the “big” companies.

Indeed it is; a Provincial favourite - I've kits for several more. Many of these graduated onto CIE in 1958 and were to be seen in traffic as late as circa 1970, along with the very last of the GSR wooden equivalents. Given the lower priority given to the cosmetic aspects of wagons as opposed to carriages or locos, quite a few were still to be seen with "G N" on them into the early 60s, as per the two currently running on the layout. Of the same type of kit which I've still to make up, I think I'll do two with "snails" and one looking a lot more newly painted with a "roundel", as they'd have got after 1963. Plus I've more cattle trucks to make up!