jhb171achill

Ex-GNR (and NCC) Locos awaiting scrapping at Maysfields, Belfast c.1961.

In 1939 or 40, Senior spotted this.... I wonder where! Over the next few visits to the catacombs, we’re in GNR territory.

You’d have arrived at Athlone, then through Moate to Mullingar, through Amiens St (Connolly) and ended up at Westland Row (Pearse). ”Flying snails” were still reasonably plentiful on wagons by then, and probably notices or signs, though no longer locomotives or carriages.

Possibly unshifted stock - or do they print them to order?

Many rural lines were built with higher hopes than realised - even today we hear of schemes like the Larne - Scotland tunnel or bridge; back in the 1880s - 1910s period, before the war. numerous schemes were put forward which even then could be seen as fantasy economics. This is good for the modeller, as it gives good excuses for very small termini with (as seen above) two to three trains a day and minimal rolling stock. Some of the branchlines I have posted timetables for above could be operated with one 0.6.0, two six-wheel coaches and a dozen wagons, running between the terminus and a fiddle yard. Someone mentioned using the 3mm scale somewhere above. In doing this, virtually all stock would have to be scratchbuilt. One can obtain kits of open wagons, and a LNER J72 class tank engine which might just about pass the 3-foot rule as a Midland J16. There are not, to my knowledge, and goods vans, guard's vans, cattle trucks (ESSENTIAL for ANY Midland layout!) or coaches which would come close to being suitable. Motor bogies can be obtained, but going down one more scale to N gauge would be easier if space for 4mm is unavailable. Worsley Works do "scratch-aid" kits of several modern CIE carriages in 3mm, and a G class diesel. So if you went for the 1960s you could, like the Loughrea branch, have a "G" and a one-coach train, hauling wagons back and forth..... but even these kits need a lot of work.

Here ye go! Both of Clara’s branch lines.

Indeed - nor did I, though I couldn't help wondering. Senior used to mention an oul boy in Enniskillen who took small parcels from the station round the town - I suspect he was probably one of the porter staff.

I'd be interested to see a pic of "Naomh Eanna" with a snail - when I saw it years ago it didn't have one then, nor in any pic I saw - unless it had one when new? I had forgotten to mention the cruisers at all above.... Makes me wonder now - I wonder did CIE have any delivery bicycles in small towns, like the GNR did?

OK, to show service levels on Midland branch lines, these are from the GSR 1926 Working Timetable. I’ve a couple of actual MGWR ones but they are not handy to access, and tell 99% the same story anyway. These are typical not just of the Midland, but the great majority of the GSWR, DSER, CBSCR, GNR and NCC also, and the narrow gauge lines. Trains marked “Mail” were mixed. They were only designated as such on branch lines because they connected with main line up and down, day and night mail trains at junctions.

Yes, a common feature. For loading hoses into horse boxes.

Do we mean Killala here, north of Ballina, or possibly Ballina itself? Ballina certainly had a turntable. As for Killala, I would have thought it did too, as it was operated by 0.6.0s. This was a system in use at a number of locations. Few, though they did exist. Useful for modellers!

Yes, six-wheelers. On most branchlines, not just Midland ones, you don't really see bogies appearing all that much if at all until the late 1920s / 1930s, when one bogie compo tends to replace a couple of six-wheelers; many branch trains then become one bogie with a six-wheeled brake third or the like. Once bogie coaches started being built in the 1890s (there were but a handful before that), gradually the newer six-wheeled stock, including a few with an internal "corridor" between the few compartments, but no gangways, were "cascaded" onto secondary lines, and were more than adequate for that type of work. Thus, on a typical 10-15 mile branch, you were to see many six-wheelers lasting until the final pogrom of such branches in the late 50s and very early 60s. What was left of six-wheel stock was all concentrated in Cork, where they were used as spare excursion stock on the Youghal line until late spring 1963, after which the only six-wheelers in traffic were the handful of GSWR passenger vans I mentioned earlier. How often would trains be mixed - an absolutely typical rural branch line service on most country lines from one end of Ireland to the other, and on both gauges, had one return passenger train per day and one mixed - all year round. On market days or summer season usually a second passenger service would run. Fair days, especially in the midlands and west, would often see an extra train plus a cattle special. On main lines, mixed trains were less common, as goods levels warranted separate goods trains, but separate goods trains were only on some branch lines - which, as a result, would probably have the daily goods and 2-3 passenger trains, but not a mixed. Mail was often carried on the mixed train too, as the delays at stations due to shunting trucks allowed mails to be loaded and offloaded too. For model railways set in the first twenty years of the century, mail carriage was universal, and you might have an RIC man (on a bicycle!) at the station to supervise the post office men loading and unloading mailbags in case they were "interrupted"! So, for a model of a branch, you're looking at a set which prototypically will be three or four six-wheelers which shuttle up and won the branch two or three (maybe four) times a day, one of the return trips being the mixed. On fair days, for modelling interest, a cattle special or two - your branch terminus could be a bit like Loughrea with a huge cattle mart right next door. GAA specials, pilgrimage specials, and one not often considered by modellers - harvest emigration specials (common in the west of Ireland) could bring in a six-coach train of mixed bogies and six-wheelers. Compared with Britain, where long-wheelbase four wheelers (like the Ratio plastic kit) were common on branch lines, Irish main line companies didn't really have four-wheelers much after 1880. The MGWR certainly had ONE as late as 1914, whose design incidentally was utterly unlike anything in Britain, but that seems a one-off. So, recourse to a 6-wheeled chassis is going to be obligatory. Even on the main lines, most trains had at least one or two well into the 1940s and earlier 50s. Sorry for the long ramble. Give me an idea of what area of the country you plan to model and I will post scans of the 1921 or 1926 timetables for that area.

Just thinking of your chosen era, Mark - for a branch line setting, if that's what you're going for, the Midland (similar to the GSWR) had an almost standard set-up for a passenger train, which was: Full brake or brake third First Class coach 2nd / 3rd composite ...with an extra all-third added as required - or - Full brake or brake third 1st / 2nd composite One or two thirds.

Interesting, gentlemen, very many thanks. In the long run, with drawings readily available, probably another option is just to scratchbuild in plastic, perhaps on the chassis mentioned above. The one vehicle I did want would have been the full passenger brake, but without the birdcage on it - these were removed on some that operated into the late 1950s. I don't think I've ever seen a picture of one WITH a birdcage beyond maybe 1953 or thereabouts. The GSWR full vans last longer with at least three making it into the late 1960s, and becoming the only six-wheelers (albeit non passenger carrying ones) to be seen behind 141s and 181s and in black'n'tan! Funny thing about six wheeled stock which lasted beyond, say, 1957 - while GSWR types dominated among the older wooden stock by then, among the 6-wheeled stock, Midland carriages dominated by far in passenger-carrying types, but GSWR types as vans - DSER types were extinct by then. Plasticard it is, then. I made a plastic "0" gauge one for Senior about thirty years ago, but all his stuff was sold off or given away long before he went off to the Great Locomotive Shed in the Sky.....

That about sums it up, NIR, more concisely that I have! Yes, exactly. On such vehicles, whichever side you looked at, it was always pointing forward. I might add that curiously, examples of both "correct" and "opposite" ways round were to be found at the head of newspaper advertisements!

An update to Midland brake van livery. I had mentioned earlier that there was uncertainty about the green shade, but the carriage brown IS known of, and horse boxes were brown. It seems that brake vans were also brown - when they were green or brown, or when any change took place, I have not yet established.

Folks, has anyone ever seen one of Shapeways' 3D prints of Irish 00 scale stuff, in particular the three MGWR six-wheelers that they offer? I am not sure to what extent the illustrations on their website are CAD drawings, or actual casts / prints, but some look very good indeed, while others are clearly coarse to the extent of Lego toys. Also, if purchasing one of their six-wheel coach designs, any advice about a suitable chassis - presumably scratch-building one is probably the only option?

This is the correct colour, shape, dimensions and orientation for ALL circumstances, other than those outlined below. It is a photo of an actual one, and on actual CIE paint. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Authentic use of CIE “Flying Snail” emblem 1945-62 Logo reversed on DRIVERS’ SIDE ONLY (Right Hand Side) where “reversed” is noted in 3rd column. Normal, as per avatar on left of this post, on other side. In other words, top bit pointed forward on each side. In all cases the light green logo was lined in gold, unless otherwise stated Type Colour of “Snail” Facing: Notes Steam Tender Locomotives Reversed RHS only Logo never carried on loco, only on tender. Most but not all tenders carried them. Steam Tank Locomotives None carried Diesel “A” Class Some entered traffic without any, but had the cut-out metal ones added later, painted light green. A1 may have entered traffic with a silver one, but light green was the norm. Logo not lined in gold, but a cut-out metal shape painted light green. Diesel “B101” Class None carried Diesel “B121” Class Lined in black Logo lined in black Diesel “C” Class None carried Diesel “F” Class (Narrow gauge) None carried Diesel “G601” Class None carried Diesel “G611” Class None carried Carriages Lt. green when carried See note below table Railcars A few railcars in the later post-’55 light green livery did not have “snails” There may have been examples of an offside “reversed” on some. Certainly, most had normal logo on BOTH sides. Wagons, vans etc. White (wagons always grey) 1945-51 or so, light green painted on. After that, painted white. After c.1959, stencilled white rather than painted. By the time wagons started being painted brown, the “snail” was gone some eight years, so no brown wagons ever had it. Departmental stock See note… On some stock, none carried. Others, white logo painted on Buses (single & double deck) Reversed drivers side only Once the red / cream and navy / cream bus liveries appeared in ’62, a few were for a short time seen with white “snails”, especially in and around Cork. Touring coaches (grey and yellow) Lined in white Reversed drivers side only Logo lined in white Road lorries Reversed drivers side only Canals & Shipping (Aran Island Ferry) None carried Dublin Trams Howth Trams None carried Howth Tramway closed after less than a year in CIE ownership – all trams retained GNR livery to end Note regarding carriages: In the older dark green livery, as seen approximated on Bachmann coaches, the transfer was always lined in gold. After 1955, many new carriages had the same, but some had an unlined light green “snail”, whereas other had none at all. In later years, several secondary carriages, especially in West Cork, were in the older dark green, unlined, and with painted light green “snails”. Common myths: 1. Steam engine tenders – either in green, normal grey, or latter-day black (for some), there was never a yellow or white “flying snail” on anything. The cabside number was painted a light yellow colour, but the “snail” was just the standard bus / coach transfer as seen in avatar on left. It is possible that the application of non-authentic yellow “snails” to preserved 184 and 461 in the 1990s gave rise to this idea. 2. White on narrow-gauge vehicles. The C & L stock in particular was allowed by CIE to get into a most appalling state of dishevelment, with many vehicles at closure not having seen a paintbrush since 1945. The pale green tended to fade (as did the green), and the emulsions in colour slide film in those days, and the fact that most colour pics of the line were taken in march 1959, in winter lighting, just a few weeks before it closed, have all given rise to understandable assumptions that things were white on dark green. Not so; same transfers as everywhere else.

MGWR No. 552 in 1938 A final look at things Midland for the time being. Tomorrow we’ll head to Enniskillen! I believe this was taken at Broadstone but I could be wrong; 1938 is the year anyway, the year after Broadstone closed as anything but a loco shed.

Yes, there seems much confusion..... it’s simple enough, in reality, as you know!

201 was blown up in 1973 - I posted a pic of its remains recently. 210, 217 and 231 (now preserved at Downpatrick) were withdrawn in 1983. The rest were all 1984, 5 and 6. The following six were sold to NIR, and their dates are as follows: Date built CIE No. NIR No. Withdrawn Actual Date "Stopped" 1957 C216 104 1995 1994 1957 C218 105 1995 1993 1957 C227 106 1995 1995 1957 C228 107 1993 1987 (May not have been used much at all by NIR) 1957 C230 108 1995 1994 1958 C234 109 1993 1987

They were much the same, Wexford70. The only real difference was that usually they had company initials stamped or stencilled on them. The GNR tended to paint locomotive numbers on them too - they presumably tried to keep a set with each loco.

It will say something to the effect "ONLY TO RUN IN PASSENGER TRAINS". For modelling purposes, it is painted the same brown as used on carriages, though without lining. Very pale grey (white lead) roof, black chassis and drawgear. The tiny lettering and "M G W R" will probably be pale yellow.

BTB, you were asking about your pic of the A class above - the makers have put it the wrong way round. Easily remedied with transfers!

They were never, ever white on anything other than wagons, nor were the lining bits white. CIE used a transfer, and they were all as the logo thing I use on the left hand side of what you're reading - that's a real one, which is currently in Enniskillen Railway Museum. There's one in the Malahide model museum too, which will eventually be displayed on the wall somewhere. The transfers were light green ("eau-de-nil"), lined in gold. although I am aware of at least one coach on the West Cork system that had them painted. Other than the exceptions mentioned above, they always faced the way you can see on the left. In later days, especially on old stock about to be withdrawn, paintwork and transfers became worn and weathered. The Cavan & Leitrim in particular, due to the GSR's short sight economy in demolishing every carriage shelter on the system, ended its days with rolling stock in an absolutely disgraceful state of filth and tattiness. On stock as neglected as this, lining and / or "flying snails" often got so badly weathered and faded that it looked whitish; the emulsions in some colour transparencies of the day are not kind to green shades after decades in storage, so colour slides nowadays are impaired. I have seen some among Cyril Fry's slides where's a green B101 appears to be in shades of pink and purple. When CIE tok over from the GSR in 1945, "snails" on wagons were even painted light green, but this reverted to cream/white in the 1950s. You mention a "narrow gauge forum" - is there much Irish stuff on it? As per the little logo to the left of this, always, on all diesel locos. Opposite way to this ONLY on ONE (drivers) side of the following: - Road vehicles (buses & trucks) - tender of steam engine I like your description as a "cannon"! Using that analogy, on all diesels, carriages and wagons, cannon points left, without any exceptions! Buses, trucks and steam tends, it points right ONLY on driver's side!