jhb171achill

The one I was in was definitely later - on further thought, possibly about 1998. It had not been in use much - I only saw it a few times. For good measure for about a week it was hauled by a sole 141 from IE to replace a (regularly sick) 111; possibly the Dundalk pilot engine - with a load of nine bogies PACKED with commuters! It was a brake 1st with a pretty big brake compartment; that's all I know.

I’m no expert on NIR stock - a bit modern for me - but on the last fling of those things, the 08:00 Portadown - Belfast (Maysfields Cattle Sidings), which I believe was the last REGULAR use of the 111/071 class anywhere, there was a side corridor brake 1st (used as a standard), which I would guess I was last in about 2000/1/2?

Absolutely classic stuff, Ernie - you've obviously been carefully browsing a certain "massive photo archive", given the great levels of realism!

So, you'd need two packs of those to make one bogie vehicle and one four-wheeler.

I'm assuming yer man in the wedding is a railway enthusiast - anyone know? Does it have...... ... (No, better not.)

We're OK with many CIE models now for good stock - but the NCC & UTA have always been neglected! Like CIE or the GNR, British parallels are few and far between. Most open wagons are fine - if not perfect - but cattle trucks and goods vans are different - and brake vans are totally different. Scratch building for "0" gauge, I suspect, is really the only option for much goods stock. But a shunting layout won't need much of it - half a dozen or 8 wagons, one brake van, and a "Jinty"?

The GNR ones had quite different panelling styles - I often thought, though, that a number of GNR (England) coaches could either be "kitbashed" into GNR(I) "2ft-rule" types, or as bogies. If Hattons also decide to release the chassis of these things as a separate item, scratchbuilding of other Irish types would be made a great deal easier. The NCC, MGWR, BCDR, GNR, GSWR, WLWR and DSER all had their own very distinctive styles. And then you get to West Cork....the Hattons "genesis" isn't hugely unlike one or two of theirs. There's a Roxey 48ft third that is half-ways close to one MGWR bogie - might get one some day! But that's a different issue. For the "genesis" thing, it resembles GSWR types best. Naturally, SSM kits provide ACTUAL GSWR types.

If the "C" class were as successful as these GSWR tank engines, they'd still be in traffic, Crossley engines an'all! Imagine - today - a "Raccoon"-liveried "C" on the Nenagh branch with a two-coach Mk. 3 push-pull...........or one on the Junction shuttle or the Ballina branch........ on Cobh locals painted silver again, like a 2600? No. 42 is a beauty! And SLNC Coach. No. 4 was always a favourite of mine, although my one and only jaunt on the SLNCR was in Railcar "B", and a few days before I was born!!!!!!!!!!!

Any thoughts on whether the new lock-down Covid rules might impact deliveries this time - or is it done'n'dusted?

That is just SUPERB! A real treat to see it in motion!

Those had curved sides.......any flat-sided BCDR stock was all 6-wheel, and all dating from 1880-1885. The two you refer to were actually built with a distinctly LMS-style side profile! .....and as you say, gone by '64. The first four behind the loco are BNCR, and the rear four - well, hard to tell, but the one next to the BNCR ones appears to have an NCC-like roof profile....possibly ex-GN, though. Too far away to tell for certain.

Yes, it certainly looks like her, but in 1956 she was supervising the “housekeeping” staff in the GNR hotel in Bundoran, so it’s possible but unlikely....

If he had flat-sided six-wheelers, they wouldn't have been BNCR but older ex-BCDR. However, I think that the last of these were scrapped about 1953/4. It's more likely he was in carriages like the above - old BNCR bogies. By 1963 there were VERY few of these in traffic, and the above pic (and your dad's rcollections) are of interest in that it would have been exceptionally rare to see these things on the GNR at all, let alone this late. I would doubt very much, given the changes in '63, '64 and '65, that BNCR stock was ever to be seen again on the GNR!

“Horizontal sides”?

This is a typical type of branch or local train, and while I believe this pic dates from 1937, it would be same on some lines and even with a “C” class up front, until as late as 1963. (Once a diesel appeared, of course, a “tin van” HAD to be added for heat). All three vehicles here are ex-GSWR. The first is an open 3rd or possibly composite of 1900-1905 vintage, very much from the family of 836 at Downpatrick. Significantly, the two six-wheelers are VERY much like the GSWR style of the Hattons ones. One is an all-third, the other a full brake. (Photo: copyright P Dillon Collection).

I’ve no idea about the “tank-tainers”, Robert.....just the ordinary ones. Yes, you’d get white and dark blue at one stage on roofs, both weathered of course, but not grey painted. Originally all blue, then white gradually replacing them, thus a mixture of the two as you suggest.

Correct, that’s what it would be. When at sea, salt spray would wear away at it. Or - grubbied white.

Where I got him was: <dave@hattons.co.uk> The first Cravens came out in 1963, but they were not to be seen on secondary services for a decade after that at least. There were several old GSWR six-wheeled full brakes, plus quite a few old wooden bogies which made it into the black'n'tan livery. Not a single PASSENGER-carrying six-wheeler was ever painted anything beyond green. The last two six-wheelers withdrawn from traffic were 69 and another one, whose number escapes me. No. 69 ended up with a gangway connection - an exceptionally rare thing for ANY six-wheeler back in the day, though the GSWR had a VERY small number. This was apparently 1968 when they were last used, but one might have been still technically on the books a bit later - I'd have to check. Some of the wooden bogies though, lasted on Dublin & Cork peak-hour services until 1974, including some non-corridor ones. Six-wheel no. 69 is now at Downpatrick, part-restored. So, what did these last six-wheelers DO? It seems that one was a regular on the Galway Mail. This would have seen it rubbing shoulders with bogie mail vans, "tin vans" (of course) and the various types of laminate coaches MOSTLY - an odd Craven, Bredin, corridor wooden bogie or Park Royal. It is likely that the last few might also have rubbed shoulders with a new Craven on the Sligo or Cork lines. That said, I don't personally recall too many Cravens on the Sligo line back then - but it could not, of course, be ruled out. They would not however be seen with a whole long sleek SET of Cravens. The Cravens were mixed up within the hotch-potch family of all the other types of coaches.

Yes, there were many in West Cork towards the end (and indeed, ALWAYS!). However: 1. From the 1950s onwards, for the record most were Midland Great Western in origin - totally different design to Hatton's ones. Should such a thing ever become financially viable, perhaps with very much lower production runs possible with future new technology, they are a very obvious gap in Irish models. 2. There probably WERE a few GSWR from time to time too, thus Hatton's yokes would be suitable. 3. The pic above is of a set of GSWR short-length bogies which were drafted into the West Cork system in the late 50s to replace earlier CBSCR ones which were totally knackered by then. These GSWR ones - you can see - bear a clear resemblance to the Hattons bodysides - HOWEVER, the ones in the pic are all bogie vehicles! The reason they had to have 48ft bogie coaches on the system (and I think, latterly, there were six), was the sharp curves on the Courtmac branch, for the summer excursions. They didn't turn a wheel otherwise by the time this picture was taken. 4. In AEC railcar sets - six-wheelers very occasionally ran singly, tagged onto the end, but not IN the set, as they were non-corridor. The Harcourt St. line saw this practice too, and even on the last day on that line, a MGWR 6-wheeler is seen tagged onto the back of an AEC set leaving H. St.; it is a MGWR one. I was speaking with one of our highly-respected model manufacturers this evening and he offered some advice, along the lines that even if Hattons did a single vehicle in a CIE livery, a string of them would work with a "tin van" at the end. This is very true, and adds to the comments made before about whether a full brake or brake third would be a good idea. Of course, a suitable old wooden non-corridor BOGIE brake third would be another suitable option. Hard for our young'uns to take in, I know, but there was no such thing as a train of an identical type of coach, be they bogie OR six-wheeled; a mixture would be far more realistic. I have one of those old Triang GWR clerestorey-roofed brake thirds for such a purpose. Clerestorey whipped off and replaced with a flatter roof, and you've got one of a pair of WLWR Brake 3rds which were scrapped in 1955. Can't remember numbers - I'm in the middle of a house move and all me stuff is packed up - but it's an OK approximation under the "2-ft rule terms and conditions" (1 compartment too many!). That would do behind six wheelers. If anyone wants to model earlier CIE days, no tin vans obviously, but from my observations, there would appear to more interest among CIE modellers in the late 50s than early 50s; this allows A, C, G601, E401 and B101 class diesels as well a steam. It also allows the two green liveries plus the "silver", whereas if one was fixated in 1953, for example, it's (a) all steam, and (b) only one carriage livery. However, when I entered into correspondence with Hattons, I was told that they've already had "a lot of interest" from Ireland - so some of us have seen the potential straight away.... Their design team, as I understand, is currently considering what liveries beyond what they've already offered might be viable for them too. For the British enthusiasts, they've already dreamed up an eye-watering amount of possibilities.

The roofs..... originally all the same dark blue as on sides, but gradually they became white. When grubby, obviously it would not be pristine white. If you’re modelling 1970s, dark blue. While I’m no expert on containers, I’m unaware of them ever being grey-topped; perhaps someone else might know?

And, as often the case with these workings, two borrowed GNR non-corridor bogie thirds!

Very good points, Ironroad. If we go back to GSR times, more gas lighting - though not all. Having said that, I think you’re spot on regarding the viability of a whole lot of variants. 1. Both brake thirds and full brakes were in fact equally common. If he did the FULL brake, he could include black’n’tan, as four of these were still kicking about in the 60s - as far as I can ascertain, two of them were in use until 1968, thus for a very short time could be seen in the Galway mail train with a train which included Cravens! Thus, if there was an advantage of some of the batch being like this, we’ll and good. 2. Lower footboard - yes, on almost all varieties, in all circumstances. 3. Mansell wheels would be best, indeed. A few old relics in West Cork had SPOKED wheels, but not of this design! Three-hole otherwise. 4. Roof furniture - mostly electric in CIE times. I can’t be certain, but done acetylene; I had a list somewhere at one stage but I’m not sure if I still have it. 5. In CIE dark green or light green, roof details, foot boards and the like much the same. There were few if any alterations done to these carriages in their last years, bar the substitution of aluminium sheet for some rotten panels, sometimes simplifying beading and panelling as a result. However this latter applied almost totally to ex-MGWR stock, so it’s irrelevant to these ones as they were a completely different design. 6. Running numbers - I have lusts which can give them chapter & verse on this, but numbers were all over the place. You could get a single type of vehicle which had numbers like 6, 23, 56-78, 119, 214-7, and 1009-1021! I think your point about brake 3rd -v- full brake is worth passing on in case it makes the idea more viable, though obviously for all of us, the more variants the better!

Is the lady leaning out of the staff area? If so, she looks uncannily like my mother, who briefly worked the dining cars on that route in the very early 50s......!!

I suggested two variants - lined dark CIE green plus the lighter 1955-63 version, on the four six-wheelers. Obviously, the four wheelers wouldn’t count for Ireland. Since these things resemble some GSWR designs, but aren’t remotely like NCC, BCDR, GNR, DSER, MGWR or West Cork designs, I didn’t go into those variants - although they ARE generic. So I suggested that if economics required something more, just GSR maroon.

Hard to believe now, but those of us “of an age” will well remember being kippered with cigarette smoke after even a quite short journey on ANY train or bus!