jhb171achill

I had no idea that one of those had survived!

It certainly is, but sound practicalities as mentioned must come into play from the outset for any such thing to succeed...

Exactly. Different culture. True. Without the May Tour in pre-Santa days in the 1980s and 90s, and the Santas since, it’s a bald statement of fact to say the RPSI would be long gone.

Good points made above. The other thing - a huge "elephant in the room" is that compared to Britain, be it Festiniog, Strathspey or Romney; Dart or Severn Valleys, or North York Moors, there is NOTHING like the PERCENTAGE of the general population across the 7 million people on this island who have the slightest interest in anything railway-related. Comparisons with Britain are therefore always as irrelevant as they are misguided, if the idea is to propose a narrative that what succeeds there has a good chance of succeeding here. If I had a euro for every enthusiast opinion I had ever heard to the effect that some perceived preservation scheme would have even some chance of transferring from an enthusiast's idea to the cold light of day in terms on manpower, sustainability, skills, and market, I'd be very rich. I might declare a hand here; when on the RPSI management committee some years ago (1980-82 and 1988-2000) any time an enquiry came the way of the society in terms of available stock for a proposed scheme, or financial advice for such; and later doing consultancy work for a heritage company based in Glasgow, and also a few other things I managed to get involved with, I have been involved with feasibility studies for some 8 or 10 projects, stretching from Co. Carlow to Fermanagh; Co. Down to Wexford; Carlow to Clare. The financial aspect was my main focus - nothing survives without adequate finance on an ongoing basis; this is the primary stepping stone. Sometimes idealists will tell me "it's not all about money"; but it is. Try telling that to a low loader firm who wants to be paid for bringing an old carriage to the site, or the town printing firm who did your brochures. Money first, skilled manpower and market second. If those matters are not secure, anyone wanting to set up any sort of preservation scheme is wasting their time, and (at worst) deluding their audience. My financial background came from 37 years working in a bank, a fair portion of that dealing with business start-up loans, re-structuring of businesses in financial trouble and so on, plus a combined 20-odd years as treasurer of both the RPSI and DCDR, successively, including numerous grant applications. In both cases, their finances were in an absolutely dire situation when I got involved. In each preservation proposal case I dealt with, well-meaning folks saw what they saw as an opportunity for something to happen. I am in the process of making notes about the various schemes with a view to making this available to do a talk somewhere, but I am not sure if anyone would want to listen; it's dry, dusty stuff which to an enthusiast can often sound overly, and depressingly negative; but cold, hard realities are realities nonetheless. One involved two businessmen who had been on holiday in England and had seen the crowds on the Severn Valley in high summer. They came back believing that they could set up an operation like that in Co Carlow and make an absolute fortune out of it. After but one long phone call, exit stage left. That was possibly the least feasible; they actually had the cash to set it up, which is unusual, but zero knowledge of operations and an utterly unrealistic idea of potential market. They were not at all, by their own admission, railway enthusiasts. Even their proposed access to their site would not have got planning permission and would have been too small to get locos in anyway. The most likely to succeed would have been a 1.5 mile long section of the SLNCR at Belcoo, which Selwyn Johnston of Headhunters in Enniskillen had tipped me off about. I think I have described this here before. In the end, what shot that one down was an outright refusal of one landowner (in the middle!) to allow it to cross his land, as a result of a deep local dispute with another of the 4 other landowners............ So; to go back to my initial comment; with 7 million people on this island, we have one 5'3" line at Downpatrick, and even that received local authority funding for years due to an arrangement no longer possible to replicate. Britain has ten times that number of people, therefore, if the level of interest in Britain was at the same level as here, they would have 10. But, across Britain, there are some SIXTY standard gauge lines, as well as some FORTY narrow gauge railways. That's TEN TIMES the level of interest, per person, per railway, per mile, per locomotive. In OPERATIONAL terms, we have some three or four preserved steam engines. Britain has over 300. We have some dozen or so preserved diesels. Britain has OVER 1000. British heritage railways have annual turnover of some £250 MILLION. That's near enough €300 million. I doubt if that of the RPSI, DCDR, ITG and the smaller narrow gauge operators come to even one million. So what drives this? Well, that's obvious - a population ten times ours, with more money, and the most important thin g of all - a CULTURE, based on an industrial past which we do not, did not, and will not have. This brings me to my final point. That we do not have such a past is hardly surprising, as we were an agricultural economy largely. Harland and Wolff doesn't count, as all the raw materials were imported for that, and the finished products floated away. We have no oil wells, massive iron ore mines nor huge coalfields. The coalfields in Arigna and the Kilkenny / Kildare border area were coal cabbage patches, not fields, and short-lived at that. Thus, we have no deep-rooted culture pertaining to such things, as they might in Yorkshire, Tyneside, the Clyde Valley or South Wales. This translates to people's leisure interests. All told, what we have we are lucky to have. Any fledgling scheme now, especially in a remote rural area, has the dice very heavily loaded against it indeed, and as enthusiasts we might consider carefully the issue of supporting an established operation rather than something in a field, near nothing and nobody, and founded more through hope blinded by enthusiasm, than any root in practicality and sustainability. Lecture concluded 22:59....!!

Exactly. I’m aware of one that’s heading straight in that direction. Indeed. We all remember the BCDR museum “trust”!!!! Trust or no trust, the major difference between operations like the Festiniog or even its tiny Welsh Highland thing, is that even the smaller ones in Britain carry more people annually than DCDR & RPSI combined! We just don’t have the same market in this island, nor ever will.

The practicalities of operating a viable preserved railway of any type in Ireland are stacked heavily against a "one-man" operation, especially in the (several) cases where the proprietors of such schemes refuse to forma a democratically-run society to operate it. This attracts volunteers. The proprietor of one such scheme has lost many good volunteers in recent years as he refuses to listen to advice given by volunteers, many of whom know a great deal more about the subject than the proprietor himself. This is not without precedent; such an issue sunk several other schemes in similar circumstances, and in others led to boardroom bust-ups which in turn put manners on the scheme. Another existing railway almost fell that way, but thankfully didn't. Operating a railway preservation scheme must be practical, and the first rule of practicality is money, and that depends on either a rich backer (who will eventually die. and then the scheme will fail), or - to be PERMANENTLY sustainable, a market. Finntown has local backing as it is a community group with some funding. Throwing money and resources at a remote rural scheme with few volunteers, no proper society to run it, just the whims of one man, and no market due to being in the outer boondocks is an utter waste of time; all such schemes will eventually fail when that key individual is in a nursing home. Several already have; the WCR, very sadly, is the next. I assisted them myself some years back in seeking funding for expansion. I sat down with Jackie and others to see what we could do, involving several fund-raising professionals as well. Alas, to no avail. Harsh reality, but there it is. Ireland is not central England. Anyone who dreams of a Severn Valley line in Ireland - anywhere - is, I am afraid, completely unrealistic.

Clifton Flewitt wrote an excellent book on the line in the 1960s. no less; it remains the standard work on the line. Clifton, of course, will be well-known to many of the older generation here. He is probably the greatest authority on Dublin trams since the famous George Marshall Harriss, if not the greatest. I have a copy, so if anyone wants to know any info, post here and I'll look it up.

This has to be the best thread on this forum for years!

That’s just outstanding!

I only see one tender…… this pic of 461 was on an enthusiast trip, I think. If it’s the one I’m thinking of, the train was of green laminates.

That signal needs to be replaced - it was never right in the first place!

A little known fact is that shortly before No. 800 went to the Belfast Transport Museum, it was sent to Dugort Harbour for temporary storage, where naturally it derailed, blocking the goods yard. Locals turn out to witness the spectacle on a summer Saturday in 1963. The Castletown local about to depart in the background has fewer people than this aboard. Eventually rescued by a wheezing Crossley, it derails twice on its way back to Mallow. Harsh words are uttered in Cork, Mallow signal cabin and Inchicore….

On a late summer evening in 1966, B165 leaves Dugort Harbour light, having earlier brought in a single fuel tanker for fuel for the adjacent CIE bus yard.

There’s at least one set with all-white logos too. I saw it at Heuston several times. The all-black logos at least were applied on purpose, possibly to several sets, due to a perception (probably incorrectly, to be fair) that green and orange on the logo might attract unwelcome attention going through Portadown.

Interesting to see the green ones flying off the shelves. Not too long ago, there seemed to be little interest amongst modellers in the "grey'n'green" era, and not a lot more in sixties "black'n'tan". Most or all Irish interest seemed to be concentrated on the modern "Supertrain / IE" era. I think this forum has to take credit for the spread of interest into past periods, in which there was far, far greater variety in trains here - whether locos, railcars, carriages or wagons. IRM, of course, must take credit for the "A" class locos, behind which there is now much to run, including green PRs. When the "A"s came out, there was very much less that could authentically run behind a silver, green or black one anyway. Likewise the late Paddy Murphy. Smaller manufacturers are also to be thanked for gradually chipping away at producing wagons of the pre-1970 era; Provincial Leslie, JM Design and latterly CK Prints have massively helped Irish railway modelling. JM, along with 00 Works, have of course also produced Irish steam locos. And a few kit makers as well - IFM, SSM, Worsley, etc. I have products from all of the above. Were it not for them, my layouting activities might have remained a dormant teen memory from half a century ago, or have been based on Austrian narrow gauge - I spent twenty years collecting OBB narrow gauge stuff and built up a large collection for a retirement layout. And then along came Murphy's 141s. The Austrian stuff all went, every bit, on fleabay, and the ideas for an Irish layout were born. Tis the old story - provide something a potential customer wants, and they will come running. We await the future with anticipation.

An absolute gentleman. I had known him, though never that well, for some 40 years. A huge loss to his club, and the hobby. Rest in peace, David, and my condolences to the family.

Now THAT looks more like it. I had thought at one stage of getting one of those and just repainting it. Is there room inside it, as it is, for a DCC chip?

Would it fit the print though?

Polloxfen's Mill is a perfect prototype of a mini shunting layout - one loco and a dozen goods vans does the trick! Something like that would also make a good "O" gauge starter project for someone with little space....

Yes, it seems they won’t reverse at Limerick, which means a (first!) non-stop service from LJ to Adare.

....and worth adding, that if you wanted more variety for the MGWR tank engines, any repainted by the MGWR between roughly 1918 and the GSR takeover got plain black, with red backgrounds to the numberplates.

That's looking great. Do we know at this stage what type of chassis / wheels / motor it's likely to fit? My Dugort Harbour layout is based in West Kerry, thus GSWR land, rather than anywhere in the west. (The real "Dugort" is a tiny village on Achill Island, and its "harbour" is tinier still!). I Reason - when the layout was conceived, nothing MGWR-ish was available. This, and a conversion of something to a J26 0.6.0T, and perhaps a 3D MGWR coach of some sort, could be a game-changer!

Absolutely amazing little "movie" of the line. If you're planning to finish the carriages in liveries, here are the details: 1st class coaches - dark blue with white lining. Possibly the roofs were white lead, which turned mid-grey with exposure to the elements. These were always marshalled at the Tramore end of the train. 3rd class coaches - maroon with a brownish tint (probably similar the GSWR livery) with blackk lining. Lettering and numbers were yellow with red shading. There were only two classes. Initially 1st & 2nd, though with the seconds of poorer standard than thirds on main lines, they soon renamed it 3rd. It is possible that the 1925 amalgamation all carriages were a dark brownish-red, but I have never been able to confirm this. From 1925, as elsewhere on the GSR, initially the standard "Guinness colour" extremely dark brownish maroon (almost black when heavily weathered) was applied to all coaching stock. This persisted later than elsewhere, doubtless due to isolation. When the former Claytons appeared as permanently coupled "pairs", they wore the recent chocolate and cream main line GSR livery, and seem to have held onto this until CIE times, when they were repainted lined dark green. Other stock was gradually repainted into standard GSR maroon, not always with crest or lining, though. From 1945 standard CIE green, of the original style with the dark green and full lining. The later lighter green appears only to have been applied to the railcars (if anything), though the extremely few (and extremely poor) colour pictures of these appear to show the dark green on railcar stock too. I do not believe that any loco-hauled passenger stock ever received the lighter green. Since the first two railcars arrived in 1954, this makes sense. Wagons would always have been dark grey. There weren't many, and the (only) 2 or 3 there by the 1950s were rarely used, and thus they rarely saw a paint brush. Thus, the "sails" and numbers would have been painted on it light green, over a dark grey background. As you've suggested, the ex-MGWR locos arrived in grey and remained that way, but the resident W & T locos had been repainted plain grey too, again as you suggest, not as pleasing on the eye as their W & T liveries! If you are ever in Malahide let me know in advance and I can get the W & T models of Fry's out for you to inspect in detail. Hope that helps. If I may - "Station" rather than "Train Station"!

Jack was a great character! Met him several times in the 70s when he was still driving.

When reopened, it was operated by the local authority. Surprise surprise, despite ignoring warnings initially, they found out that if a fully waged crew, as opposed to volunteers, ran such an operation, it would lose money; and thus, predictably, it did. Tralee town council were unprepared to put ratepayers' money towards it, so it foundered. Several local enthusiasts did their best to try to persuade them to allow a voluntary group to take over. The council refused, despite publicly making encouraging noises. One particular councillor seemed to be the problem, as is so ioften the case, but local authorities do tend these days to be strapped for cash, and there is greater than ever scrutiny of what they spend their money on (or don't) with the overall public good in mind. That bit is understandable. But refusing to let anyone else near it is not. It is irresponsible and criminal waste of the resources already invested in it. As of now, the loco is in bits, with a full rebuild required; you'd probably be looking at a bare minimum of half a million for that alone. The carriages are scrap, not that they were remotely appropriate in the first place. The track would need very major work, possibly replacement, at least in part. The river bridge may or may not still be serviceable. The "station" at the Blennerville end is atrocious, what there is of it; zero attempt at anything remotely appropriate to the line. My sources on the ground tell me that the local authority still haven't the remotest interest in funding it, and are equally uncooperative about allowing a volunteer group (if there was one) to take over. Overall, a text-book case of why local authorities or commercially-driven interests (such as the crowd that run a biscuit tin on wheels along a very rough stretch of track at the Giant's Causeway) in Ireland should not be let near such projects. This brings to mind the sustainability of railway preservation projects on this island, a massive subject in itself for another day. Suffice to say, nowhere on this island can, does, or ever will, support a Severn Valley or Festiniog type operation. We are lucky we have the DCDR, likely to be the only operating 5'3" gauge line ever, and even they received a considerable subsidy from their local authority for many years (but were and are obviously volunteer-run).