jhb171achill

Absolutely invaluable information, Kirley, which will satisfy many, many queries here!

I have a notion I saw one without an instanter at one stage but I'm not certain. I'll have a look through pictures I took that day and see what I can find.

Beside it a GSWR profile coach of 1900-15 era. Light green line positioned at same level for uniformity, as was the policy.

Preservation is a very unreliable source of livery information, as the majority of preserved locos and coaches have major inaccuracies. In terms of preserved goods stock, I can't think offhand of a single example that is correct - or anywhere near it! Double snail logos were an extreme rarity but in cases outlined above did exist. Generally speaking, liveries were indeed the standard of the day.

Generally, carriages carried one "snail", or, as in the Park Royals, none. This was the rule at Inchicore. However there were oddities, both in lining and logos. Anything painted in Cork or Limerick could throw up surprises, for example a couple of old CBSCR bogie coaches on the West Cork system had two snails, dark green paint, but no lining at all. Cavan and Leitrim coaches had dark green paint on original stock, with only one light green band - above the windows, none below. The Inchicore rebuild of C & L coach No. 1 was, like most stock on the West Clare, turned out unlined and with no snail - nothing but the numeral. The West Clare railcars never carried lining or snails, and both shades of green were used on different ones. Done old T & D stock turned up in both Ennis and Ballinamore, with no lining and either no snail or one. On the main line, postal and all-parcels/brake vehicles often had no snail. When new stock was silver, no snails were carried.

I wonder if it might be Damhead or Maze? It's not adavoyle....

Initially they weren't specifically for beet - they were general purpose open wagons replacing older (sometimes MUCH older!) wooden opens. Latterly, of course, they were only used for beet, and were called "beet wagons" far more often than "open wagons"....

Absolutely superb and very valuable invitation, bsgsv.

Those shades of green look spot on to me. Good to have the relevant Humbrol numbers.

Off topic a bit, Mayner, but what's that small green birdcage-roofed van in your photo? Looks interesting. It could be DCDR with G617 and E421!

Kirley, in terms of liveries, the above two GSRPS coaches are in the pre-1955 darker green, and the shade was accurate - I saw hem in the flesh. The mining is correct too for that era, though he "flying snails" are very slightly too small, and generally a coach would only have had one in the middle. Snails and lining in this livery were edged in gold, as were numerals. Post 1955, the lighter green you'll see at Downpatrick on C231, G611 and the TPO, with a single thinner line along tyne waist, and both the snail and lining are unlined.The CIE coach 3223 at Downpatrick is not in the correct livery - it has the darker green but later style of lining. It has to be said it looks very well, but base your research on he other items mentioned above. There are a number of preserved CIE buses in green, and 800 in Cultra was actually painted by CIE in Inchicore - so those will act as primary sources for the darker green, which remanned in use on buses, road vehicles and a handful of steam locos into the early 1960s. The light green was only applied to carriages.

Interesting, Ben! Worthy of preservation. The bulk of them were just broken up by I E.

The four wheeled bubble does indeed seem to have vanished from Limerick within the last year. A number of bogie-bubbles are in Limerick, though. I presume I'm right in thinking there are no fertiliser wagons left?

Nearest to the post-1955 CIE green is probably middle right, with the "eau-de-nil" probably best represented by the centre colour.

Monck Place and Dolphin Discs, Mayner.... you're showing your age - and mine: brings back many memories. Did you go to the Baggot Inn to see Stepside, Spud or some young fellas called U2, by any chance?

Mayner has (again) hit the nail on the head: I was told that years ago about 1408 in response to the same question. Yes, all railcars and trailers on the W & T ran in the lighter green only, as per DCDR's TPO. (And C231, for that matter!) Wouldn't a W & T based layout make a magnificent small shelf project? Nowadays they'd probably have a couple of 2600 sets and maybe nothing else!

There's one of a silver one in one of the colourpoint books - can't remember which. The only green I've seen is black'n'white, if you know what I mean, I think one of Jimmy O'Dea's.... Plain black after 1962, though a few got full black'n'tan.

A 401 gives you the option of green or silver liveries as well as black, of black'n'tan.

Broad dimensions same as an E421 class..... can be seen close up on DCDR. Cab windows different, as seen in photo above, and "thing" on top of the engine compartment needs to be added. Maybe that's not much help, but here's hoping!

We've both above..... In the pics above, 1146 is a laminate and 1150 a Craven. The Craven firsts were "first", not "super standard", as that terminology only appeared in 1972. Craven firsts were externally identical to standards.

I understand the coaches will be the same black & silver-grey. Same maroon / red logos, which in design will be broadly similar to what's in use. That's the broad plan anyway.

Yes, Glenderg....

Incidentally, just for info, I might point out that 3223 on the DCDR is in 1950s railcar livery. The darker green, on loco hauled coaches, was done away with about 1955, and would have had the broader light green stripes both above and below the windows; these, plus "flying snails", being edged in gold. For the lining style and unlined snail currently carried, only the lighter green, as seen on the TPO, G611 and C231 was used. For purists, the fonts used on all three G class, both E's, and A39 are correct. That used on C231 is not. The numerals are too thick - see A39 - and the "3" isn't the right shape. NO ill reflection, none at all, on the SUPERB work of ITG and DCDR people in restoring her. I think the lettering was added to her when over in England.

Decals, I am told, will be largely red or maroon.

The DCDR's 3223, which is in traffic and may be seen readily, is one of these. It is a conversion of a former CIE side corridor standard (3rd class when built), these dating from between 1951-3. One of the former side corridor doors can be seen in the guards van end to this day.