jhb171achill

Just looking at the amazing variety of Irish RTR stuff available in recent years, and the tremendous work done by Murphy Models, SSM and others. We can recreate a typical scene just about anywhere on this island from the 1960s onwards, and quite a lot prior to that. I wonder - just throwing it out there - would there be, in the longer term, a commercial market for some RTR stuff in the late steam era? This is getting more popular, judging by posts on IRM. To be commercially viable, it would obviously have to be something very common in the day. If I might suggest priorities based on that, and on wide route availability, there seem to me some obvious contenders: Locos: J15, 400 class, to join the successful Woolwich. UTA Jeep, GNR "S" class, Bandon tank? Railcars: Without doubt, an AEC set in UTA, GNR and CIE liveries. Maybe a BUT? If a DART model is viable, maybe, just maybe a GNR artic set as used on the Warrenpoint and Howth lines? And an MPD car. Coaches: The pre-black and tan scene is crying out for a proper model of a GSWR wooden bogie and a Midland 6 wheeler! And a 6 wheel brake of either provenance. A GNR K15 - brown, blue and cream, UTA green, CIE green, NIR maroon and grey as railcar intermediate, and black'n'tan would all be appropriate for this. A standard NCC third of one of the types at Whitehead? Wagons: Surely, a "H" van! A CIE brake van or earlier GSWR one, well travelled at the time? Just a few thoughts. Time to get the mulled wine going....

And Nelson, your black one is perfect too - really looks the business.

Boskonay, that is truly stunning! Love the shaded NCC lettering - was that hand done or transfers?

The LMS lettering is slightly too large for the prototype; if replacing with NCC in the same style, I'd make it a bit smaller. As well as that, don't forget the distinctive cast cab side number plates rather than painted numbers. These would have red backgrounds, not maroon.

A pleasure, sir!

Absolutely superb attention to detail!!

"Reprinted"......word recognition! I meant "repainted"!!!

It's quite a while since I was in Cultra, Scots Mac. If the number plates on 800 are now black, it is most certainly wrong - they must have been reprinted as the last time I was there, they were the correct blue. If they're now black it would not, unfortunately, be the first time Cultra had got livery details fundamentally wrong. I can confirm from eye witnesses and photos that none of the locos ever had black backgrounds to either the number or name plates. Hope this helps.

Scots mac, all grey locos had grey chimneys and smoke boxes, you're quite right - and this included all woolwiches. However, there benign exception to every rule, there were no more than maybe half a dozen locos painted right at the end of steam in the early 60s, with grey body colour and black smoke box and chimney. By that stage a small number of locos were all over black too.

Regarding a book on the 800 class, Minister, I agree it would make fascinating reading. I suspect,though, with only three of them, the number of people who knew them intimately was relatively small, and indeed the great tragedy is that they never got a chance to properly stretch their legs following the advent of diesels and prior to that the fuel crisis. If anyone ever fancies taking on such a project, I would be delighted to provide any assistance I could....

Just a small correction, folks... The background to the number plates was never black. Blue on all three initially, but later red on 801 and 802 - same as the nameplates. However, unfortunately all three were poorly cared for cosmetically in the 1950s, so blue might have looked a lot dirtier....

Presumably you want to model 1980s / 1990s, Sean? If so, a few Cravens and a BR van wouldn't go amiss, or a rake of cement bubbles, beet wagons, or container flats.

I got mine too, from Clifton Flewitt in the IRRS last week....

Alan, if it's lined, then it would indeed be green - though a solitary Woolwich got black with red lining. It was the only CIE loco thus treated.

Great stuff, Ernie! Some good stuff there...

The Great Western Trail people, Ernie... Contact Liam O'Mahony in that neck of the woods, or the RPSI should have it available on mail order. I do know that Clifton Flewitt of the ISPS / IRRS has it in stock. Liam O'Mahony's people published it.

When they rebuild it, will they employ our experts here to weather it? Just getting me coat...

Pure paradise. That would be the best layout imaginable!

Scots mac, PM me privately and I can go into more detail. I have checked photos in a number of books and several colour slides I have. Every pic I can see of 400 class locos are all unmistakeable grey. I had something else in the back of my mind era green loco, but when I turned it up it was a "Woolwich". These locos appeared in green, also grey, also black and as I said earlier a single one got black lined in red.

Hello Davy. That pic above looks grey to me. You are right that anything in black came late in the day. By this stage, much of the grey majority were so filthy they might as well have been black - or tartan, pink and yellow! 402 was certainly grey in a number of pics, though I cannot be certain whether it ever carried green or black - or when. I have seen a pic of at least one 400 in what is either black or very dirty grey. One weathering detail which can be seen in 186 today is that on account of the heat generated, a grey smokebox can look darker, leading to the understandable, but erroneous, impression that it is black like it would be on almost any other loco livery in the world! Though France often painted smoke boxes the same as the body colour, and South Africa routinely painted the smoke boxes of black engines in silver-grey.

And there are always 142 at Whitehead, and 146 and G613 at Downpatrick!

Looking at those pics, 402 would appear to be in unlined grey in that photo. At least some signs of lining would be visible otherwise, and a snail on the tender. And 670 is indeed one of the black variety, as is 464 on the next page as I mentioned I my earlier post. Hope this all helps!

Hello again, scots mac. All three 800s had blue backgrounds to plates in GSR days, and as you say two had red in latter times,probably dating from about 1952. I would not be an expert on the chimney configurations. Regarding 670, all locos - whether grey, green or black - had red buffer beams, as standard, but grey locos with the exceptions noted above never had black smoke boxes and chimneys - the red buffer beans were the only relief to what looked like a sheep dpi livery! 670 could well have been black. Must look in that book... All green locos were lined, without exception, but many of them, 400s especially, seemed to end up quite filthy. Thus, lining or indeed actual green paint was not perhaps as clear as it might be! I have seen two pics in my time of locos of this class where you could barely tell whether they were grey or green, such was the poor condition of the paintwork as well as the dirt.

Here we are. Bob Clements, Drew Donaldson and Bill McDonnell recorded the following, and it can be taken as extremely accurate. The green on anything other than the three 800s (incidentally only one was a "queen"! The rest were legendary figures) dates from 1947. Prior to that, apart from the 800s, absolutely everything was unlined plain all-over grey. Boiler bands were green edged in black, and with a double white line in the centre. Red buffer beams had black edging on green locos. 802 got the lighter shade in 1952/3. A solitary "Woolwich", no. 384, got black with red lining for the Rosslare Express, in the mid 50s. Three grey locos only got black smoke boxes and chimneys - Bandon Tank no. 464, J18 593 and J15 193. They were thus treated in Cork, a long way from home for a J18! The steam CIE era hasn't been well covered in models, so the very best of luck with it!

The colour scheme on the front of the book you mention is not accurate, as it shows a black smokebox and chimney and red lining on a number plate. They were grey all over. I will try to look out the list of green and black locos.