jhb171achill

Absolutely superb stuff, Glenderg. I like your weathering. You're right - the "pre-Tippex" and "post-Tippex" orange shades were exactly the same, not least due to the fact that most were not initially repainted: the "tippex" was just added! The brighter shade had started appearing on new Mk 3s and by 1990 (three years after the white lines started) was becoming universal. Remaining Park Royals and Cravens always retained the older shade. As I said before, it wasn't a huge difference, and with weathering was more or less the same. Your locos and coaches above are spot on.

In model terms, the one shade is perfectly adequate in terms of accuracy for absolutely everything bar newly delivered 071s. Weathering of any models I have see thus treated is more than good enough to replicate actual weathering. Far more models are non weathered than the real thing, where every single thing was weathered after a few days in traffic. I remember seeing a newly painted 141 or 181 in Inchicore about 1970 (black'n'tan, obviously) and it looked so bright (well, the orange and white bits!). For current comparison, Whitehead's 142 and Downpatrick's G613 are exactly right. Obviously, every modeller has their personal preference, and their own take on the importance of accuracy, of lack of it. But for those who do seek accuracy, all colours in all CIE, IE, UTA or NIR liveries can easily be accurately recreated without doubt having to enter into it. Good news for modellers, of course! I'm just imagining a laminate in Vaseline and marmalade livery, though......

For Dave182 and others, if I may assist in putting to bed the confusion over the shades of tan / orange / "golden brown". There were basically four shades, two being only an irrelevantly tiny bit different. A. Original from 1962: unchanged on anything at all, bar brand new 071s, until the late 1970s. B. Exceptionally slightly more orange version of the above, applied to everything painted from maybe about 1980 until the early 90s. C. Distinctly, but only slightly more orange, applied to anything painted after about 1990. D. A very much browner shade - more an orangey-brown than "orange with a brownish tint". This was on newly delivered 071s only: this colour was never used in Inchicore. It came about quite simply because GM painted them the wrong shade in Illinois. The CIE logos were non-standard too; all white, different font, larger roundel size. All 071s with this logo must by default have this one-off light brown, and all "standard orange" must by default have standard logos - if accuracy is desired. Fading did play a part too. If you see a newly painted "E" class, say, or a tin van, in 1966, it looks just as bright orange as a Mk 2 in 1980. But as this colour faded, it looked a bit browner. Thus, a newly outshopped Mk 3 in 1986 would have looked more orange than, let's say, a Dutch van sitting beside it, though painted five years earlier in the same, or nearly same, shade. Postscript: I saw a pic which someone had photoshopped of an 071 in NCC maroon. You've no idea how well it looked!

I'm looking for a 00 scale hi-via jacket so I can go and take a camera round Tara Junction. Any good B & B's round there?

Thought that..... Yes, it would make an amazing layout!

I've an idea that the Guinness track mileage was at its highest extent nearer ten miles than six!

He was indeed, Stephen. ICE, PWI, plus another engineering professional body, as well as enthusiast groups. The IRRS have a number of unpublished articles of his too.

The original colour was much more brown than orange. The pic of the one in Central is after its first Inchicore repaint, as the CIE logo is the normal one. On the original (American painted) non-standard tan shade, the logo was also non standard - it was all white, bigger than normal, and slightly wrong font. Look at the one of 087 in that series; sorry, I don't know how to copy the link. This shows the browner-tis shades be the detail variation I mentioned above - as well as a non standard font for the numerals on the ends.

As you mentioned, Nelson, various shades of green - all very short lived - were tried on several locomotives. While there may now be controversy about what exact shades they were, I understand that one - probably "Jeep" No. 5 - was an apple-green shade, considerably lighter than the olive green. I think it had black and white lining, with a white or cream "U T" on the side tanks but no crest. Your (excellent) U2 would look extremely well alongside a lighter green WT! (There's a new project!)

Many thanks, folks. Much appreciated.

The Swilly locos - as Mayner says, two 4.8.4T in addition to the two 4.8.0 tender locos were absolutely huge. I think someone in England had a live steam version of the tender engine. By the time my dad visited, one tender loco was out of traffic and the general manager told him it would not be running again. Both tank engines were, at the time of his visit, also out of use. Lighter loadings on most trains were by now making the large locos uneconomical to operate.

Another idea: Great Victoria Street as it would have been like if sympathetically restored and modernised today instead of closed in '76... Or Waterside if in modern guise....

That is just stunning, Nelson. Well done.

Very much appreciated, folks. The camaraderie here is what it's all about; in the ages we live in, it replicates the camaraderie shared by all who worked in all walks of the professional railway world in interesting, lost, times past. I used to marvel at his encyclopaedic knowledge of all things - except diesels! He could tell an "A" from a "C" or a "B" - but if you started debating 101s, 121s, 141s or 181s...... "They're just diesels". He was a steam man, until only days ago telling of what he saw in "Kingsbridge", "Westland Row" and "Amiens Street". His last story, which I took notes of only a couple of months back, concerned his observations while commuting to Harcourt Street en route to school in the 1920s. When travelling to Britain, despite dreading the ferry journey due to the ease with which he would feel seasick, he would prefer this to flying. Despite this too, he once told me he was "seasick" on the Schull and Skibbereen. He travelled over the line just once, which he said was enough; a combination of poor track, steep gradients and the rolling nature of a four-wheeled coach result in him standing on the end balcony decorating the receding track behind the train! When I was asked by DCDR what info he had regarding the internal upholstery of BCDR coaches, I asked him, knowing he had travelled over the whole system several times in the 1930s. On one of these, he caught the train from Amiens Street to Bessbrook, then cycled to Newcastle! His answer: "Oh, I've no idea. I was never in a BCDR coach" Me: "But I thought you were all over the BCDR?" "Oh yes, but I was always on the footplate. It was usually an 0.6.0. Last time there were several GNR cattle trucks in Downpatrick"... He did the whole CDR a number of times by footplate, first class compartment, and crowded railcars. He recalled one trip through the Barnesmore Gap, "the locomotive was flat out with the goods, but the lorries were overtaking us". Same, as he recounted, the day he footplated 4.8.0 No. 12 to Burtonport.... He managed to get as far as Rathkenny on the Cushendall narrow gauge. It was one of the last inspection trips, just a light engine and him. I said he had little time for diesels. Until, that is, he saw YouTube clips of 146, A39 and C231 on the DCDR. He passed away with a new found interest in heritage diesels and the activities of the ITG, whose magazines I lent him.

Very impressive indeed - good to see attention being given to genuine Irish prototypes. All too often repainted Hornby stuff is the best that's available.... Leslie's "Provincial" wagons, of course, are the exception to this - a very valuable addition to the "goods" scene. I have a model built by an Inchicore worker in 1905 or so. I must take a pic of it and scan it. It's painted in the GSWR wagon livery (as seen in those photos above) of a very dark grey, almost black; much darker, even, than locomotives were!

Excellent stuff! That's a good job to have..... like a latter day Drew Donaldson, who imbued several generations of Belfast "Inst" railway enthusiasts with a love of railways.

What they'd come up with, Glenderg, might be quite frightening!

I love that little brake van in CDR colours!

I always thought something like red or maroon and cream would have a good strong brand for the Enterprise. It was superb on the Donegal Railway, which prior to 1932, like the LLSR had some of the darkest, gloomiest liveries ever seen!

I might add.... Any business which continually "sub-sectorises" itself - (A) does not show new vibrancy to the public - it confuses and bores them. (B) often shows signs of too many little "empires" within the organisation, which can be a reflection of inefficient central management, poor marketing skills / unmarketable "products", or just plain old fashioned " too many chiefs" syndrome

I agree. I never liked the bland liveries given to the DD stock (all variations of which are awful IMHO), the Mk4 and ICR stock and the NIR "red bull". Silver is just too bland a colour for any corporate image. The primary concern for any corporate image must be branding and identification of colour with product. Cie's green (or cadburys purple) fit this bill ideally. If IE want green, it needs to be applied as a distinct shade of their own, to everything they own. We are heading towards a1980s BR style scenario where no two items on rails, or station premises, have the same image / livery.

PS even Drew was prone to error...I suppose we all are now and again!

The GSR was notorious for wrong spellings! Valencia is not what you'd normally get in Kerry but as Leslie and others mention, it did indeed crop up in railway circles as the photo proves (and which confirms, of course, the superb realism of the layout!). Drumshambo was a particular howler, and various railway-official versions of the Irish for Bray have been somewhat imaginative!

Possible, bsgsv. I didn't think any park royals were dark green anyway.

When I get a minute to do so, I'll scan in a photo of the type of thing Dundalk considered buying from NB. I agree with you, Mayner, NB probably would have been a bad buy. After inclusion into the UTA and CIE, neither company had anything by NB and the GNR diesels would soon have fallen victim to Inchicore's distrust (for good reasons!) of anything non-GM. It's interesting to speculate that in the light of the re-engining of the A and C classes, would CIE have opted to re-engine NB products (the "H" class?). Would the UTA have prolonged the Derry Road, or goods in the north, or just switched any locos they got to the NCC? In which case, the all-railcar status of the NCC and the CDR-like haulage of the Derry goods by railcar wouldn't have happened! Would one or two have been in use in only recent years on Poyntzpass ballast trains? Would they have monopolise the Enterprise until 201-class tines, thus eliminating the need for the 70 class sets, certainly the (unsuccessful) Hunslets, and 111-3? Back to the original point of this thread - how would a NB loco look in black'n'tan!!!