jhb171achill

Meant to add, and is indeed appropriate for another post.... Harty's influence in the "Bredins". It was common practice in the past (and quite wrongly so, in my opinion) for the head of department to take credit for work he had overseen. Best example - all the bridges "built by" I K Brunel, or all the locomotives (personally?) built by Robert Stephenson, and did Gandon or Mulvany actually "build" all sorts of fine buildings? Reality is, Bredin had a team of draughtsman, as did his predecessors and others like him. The most famous thing attributed to Bredin is of course Maedb and her sisters. If you examine drawings of these locos and indeed the "Bredin" coaches, you will not find the initials of Edgar Craven Bredin on them, you will find initials of others. Not to dismiss Bredin by any means; he wasn't the head of the department for nothing. He oversaw, and I suppose as they say now "facilitated" the transfer from an idea, via a plan, to a running locomotive. His Chief Draughtsman was also heavily involved in the accompanying coaches, the second batch of the Drumm Battery trains, and many locomotive rebuilds.

Fascinating stuff! And nothing will cheese me off, BSGSV, other than the price of Guinness in temple bar, so don't worry! My initial point was that there were the two main shades, details of which may be had. I had mentioned in earlier posts that in not just this, but many livery issues, there are sometimes variations. Just look at current "Enterprise" variations on 201 class locos and DVTs. The "Apple green" variation was a somewhat halfway house; it never became official policy as such, and yet was applied to a fair number of vehicles. I never saw it - but other shades of various colours I refer to from time to time relate to matters I can either verify myself or clarify by references to very reliable sources. Thus, these posts are designed to assist those who would want to portray great accuracy. Naturally, as others have pointed out, what a modeller wants is only his business. The legendary Drew Donaldson disliked Inchicore's loco grey, and liked lined green so much that he painted all his models in a lined green livery. Needless to say, few of the prototypes ever carried it, but they looked superb nonetheless. Others referred above to the difficulties of matching colours for models. True - I have fallen victim to this myself. But it also happens in 12ins to the foot scale, for example when a paint supplier to a railway went out of business or changed specifications. Legend had it that Dundalk applied forty shades of blue to its locos over a 25 year period, though there is no evidence to authentically back this up. Indeed, they had paint mixing chemists at the works there to ensure consistency. I knew one; he's long gone to his rest now. But some of these green variants were doubtless caused by this. In my time at Whitehead, the old sleeping coach there - now the Operation Manager & PW office at Downpatrick - needed a lick of paint. A job lot of cheap maroon had been bought to do a quick job on several coaches. It was trialled on this vehicle; the result, as many saw for some years, was that it looked purple, not maroon. Luckily the running set hadn't been touched and all the paint was sent back to the supplier. Otherwise, you would almost certainly have had two RPSI coaches running around like this for some years. The research always continues. Whatever stuff I find I will share.

Surely you had some comeback to the source of whoever packed it, or An Post?

Nelson - sometimes I think I must sound like a long playing record in plugging the IRRS ;-) However, I think you would find all sorts of stuff there which would be of great interest to you. There are many IRRS members who regularly read and contribute to this board, so you will find lots of help and guidance should you visit. You mention photos - there are lots!

Think I'll stay in the Hilton instead....

BSGSV, a very interesting article indeed, thanks. To answer a few points. The early experiment with a lighter green was indeed the same light green used a few years later. It probably looked like "Apple green" beside the existing dark shade, but evidently was liked as it was to becoms standard. The variations you mention (and I've seen pics if one or two of them somewhere) tended to be short lived one-offs, a bit like the legendary painting of a UTA "Jeep" in green. The RPSI liveries are their own. The Whitehead based Mk. 2 set is in a close approximation to UTA green, not CIE. The lining is the RPSI's own invention, and was initially devised by yours truly, the idea being that the coaches ought to look roughly UTA, but were not in fact! UTA green, when in use an weathered, tended to dull down to be like this is now, in traffic. The CIE shades did too, as did the various versions of the later CIE "tan". I defer to the knowledge of those whose knowledge and experience of paint thinning and weathering on models is far superior to mine! The two shades of green I referred to initially were the only two "official" versions, despite clear evidence of the odd alternative experiment. In addition to coaches, loco 801 was briefly painted in a slightly lighter shade in the early 50s, but quickly reverted to the shade on 800, the standard. 801 also carried red backgrounds to its number and nameplates from this time a la 461; the only CIE loco ever to do so. 800 and 802 had blue; all other green CIE locos had painted numerals and no names.

Leading up the amalgamation in 1925, the DSER used maroon, the CBSCR Olive green, the GSWR a very dark brownish maroon, as seen on Downpatrick's 836 and the RPSI's 1097 which is also on the DCDR now. The MGWR had traditionally painted carriages brown, apart from a brief flurry with blue and white for a few years about 1905. However the company had abandoned this after about 1918 and was in the process of painting its stock in maroon. The GSR adopted a very deep maroon at first. This was probably the same as GSWR coach paint, but spread to all constituent companies, including narrow gauge. Lining was somewhat simpler than pre 1925. In the late 20s, a brown and cream livery with shades virtually identical to Britain's Great Western Rly started to be used, but was largely confined to bogie and main line stock, though I have seen at least one shot showing a six wheel passenger brake thus clad. The darker shade seemed to continue on lesser stock alongside it, and no narrow gauge stock was painted this way. Lining was a single black line under cantrail, above windows and below them at the division between the brown below and the cream above. From 1935, when the "Bredins" were first introduced, the same shade of maroon as the LMS in Britain or the NCC was used, indeed with the same lining style. All future reprints of all stock were in this shade, which lasted well into early CIE days. Some secondary stock had no lining, including many (but not all) six wheelers. Narrow gauge stock tended to have no lining at all. After 1945, CIE green began to take over, but maroon coaches would have operated alongside them probably until about 1949/50, possibly in a few cases longer.

Among the other EXACT paints, i.e. taken from the actual companies as backgrounds for the crests in Enniskillen are: Clogher Valley coach maroon, GSR maroon, BCDR maroon, CBPR dark lake, CDRJC red, GNR loco blue, T & D original coaching purple-maroon (pre-GSR takeover), Dublin & Blessington green, DUTC green, same as early CIE as mentioned above, UTA green, CIE snail showing the eau-de-nil, and DUTC grey and yellow (again, actually cut off the side of a tramcar). Actual specification GNR railcar navy blue and cream colours, their formulas etc., are still held by the old established firm of Jamison & Green, who supplied paint to the GNR and UTA. In the UK, LMS maroon ("Midland Red") is widely available. This is the same as what the NCC and GSR (post 1935) used.

Paints can be watered down with thinners for small models, but would not lose their shade. The only thing that a modeller needs to beware of is having a paint finish too glossy looking. For a model maker, professional or amateur, most liveries of most things have ample info available. The most common mistakes, for the purist, are coloured carriage ends or black chassis or ironwork on goods stock. There were some examples of both, for example modern carriages and pre-GSR stock, but not CIE. The Donegal system had some black ironwork, and the NCC appears to have painted the chassis of "brown vans" in black - doubtless for use on passenger trains. CIE painted a very small number of "H" vans in dark green... Possibly only one.... but it had a black chassis. Otherwise, wagon chassis, draw gear, wheels and roofs would almost always be body colour, as would strapping. As several have very amply demonstrated here, moderate to heavy weathering, and above all avoiding high gloss finishes, makes models almost spookily realistic!

Indeed, Garfield - I'd forgotten all about that! Anyone know where that model is these days?

Superb!

Richie, if you're ever in the IRRS on Tuesday nights, give me a shout. I am not there every week, but would be quite regularly.

Richie You are quite correct. There were two very distinct shades of green in use, one considerably lighter than the other. The history of it is this. About 1940, the Dublin United Tramways Company changed its livery from yellow and grey (cue the 121s over 20 years later?) to dark green, retaining its garter logo for a while, though this was shortly changed to the "Snail". When CIE was formed in 1945, they adopted the Dublin tram livery for everything under the sun - from timetable covers to the inside walls of some signal boxes, a few steam locos, carriages, trams and buses. The first diesels had lined green; the four "D" class and 1101/2 (later B113/4). The three 800 class steam locomotives acquired it in place of the somewhat lighter GSR green; these remained the only locos painted CIE green until just after 1950, when some more got it. In the mid fifties some new passenger stock was placed into service unpainted, and the A, C, G601, E401 and B101 classes were also silver. This wore very badly, so from about 1956 onwards both new and repainted older coaches received a lighter shade. The original paint, straight from inchicore Works, can be seen on the background to the collection of mounted railway crests - the best collection of irish ones probably in existence - which is in "Headhunters" barber shop and railway museum in Enniskillen. For those who have not seen this, it's a must. I know of the provenance of this collection, as I obtained it for the museum. Almost every single coat of arms is on actual railway paint; indeed, the Cork, Blackrock & Passange one is cut out of the side of a coach. One can't get more accurate than that! But I digress. The correct green can also be seen on several preserved buses and on loco 800 in Cultra. There are folks on this board with a greater knowledge of who owns these preserved buses, or who painted them, but the colours on thoseI have seen in the flesh are accurate. 800 was actually painted in Inchicore before presentation to the old Belfast Transport Museum. It carries "G S" markings now - this is inaccurate. It is in CIE green, and should have a "snail"; if they want "G S", they should have it painted a slightly lighter shade, though the details don't seem to have survived, and lined yellow and black.. But I digress again. The older, darker green, plus the light shade known as "eau-de-nil" (whatever that is!) date to the DUTC, and were used on all road vehicles up to the early 1960s. The same dark green was applied to some station paintwork, though a slightly lighter shade was used as well. This may be seen in two patches under the train shed roof at Harcourt Street Station now - just go up the steps off Hatch Street. The style of lining was not unlike that on the Bachmann coaches, though the bands on these are far too wide. Locos, diesel and steam, had black and white lining in the style now seen on the RPSI's 461, and on 800. Road vehicles had the eau-de-nil. The eau-de-nil lining was itself lined in gold, as were snails and lettering / numerals. So, reference the crests in Enniskillen or 800 for that accurate shade. The lighter shade post-56 was never applied to road vehicles or station buildings or furniture; just to diesel locomotives (not steam) and passenger rolling stock. The Downpatrick TPO was accurately painted this way, but is badly faded now. The RPSI's Dublin-based heritage set is also accurately painted in this shade. When in use, this lighter green had unlined snails, numerals and so on, and instead of a thickish eau-de-nil band above and below window level, instead had a single thinner line below the windows only, as on the DCDR and RPSI stock referred to. There were a few exceptions. Some railcars, of both AEC and narrow gauge WCR Walker varieties, were painted the dark colour, others the lighter green. But all had the simpler form of lining and lettering. This "railcar livery" - the earlier dark green lined with one thin line only - can be seen accurately reproduced on Downpatrick's brake standard genny 3223. In the late 50s, Albert Quay turned out some unlined stock in the darker green, with two snails per side, and apparently in white. The West Clare passenger stock bore both dark and light green - entirely unlined and mostly without snails either, while the Cavan & Leitrim had the eau-de-nil band above window level only. Carriage ends were always black in CIE times, until the moren Mk 3's and the like. I hope this helps.

Indeed, Stevie! I counted at least 27... From Tullow to Dingle...... Pennyburn to Broadstone..... Killaloe to Killorglin.....

The SLNCR had already obtained second hand engines in the past, notably from the GNR, so acquisition of something from the Midland or GS would have been quite feasible.

1. What Irish railway company had overall roofs at all its stations? 2. How many stations in Ireland had overall roofs?

Ideally I suppose, all railcars would have gangways at all cab ends like the BUTs, then it wouldn't matter what order anything was in!

This has got to be my single favourite layout. And as we all know, very SERIOUS competition isn't lacking! I love the artistic effects. Not just the scenery, good as it is; just look at the weathering too... and the detail.......

Well, many Aussies are descended from us..........! As our good friends from the USA would say, "go figure"!!!!!

For that 80 to work, you have to include, inside it, 7 drunk 20-something lads singing offensively sectarian songs, on the 22:50 from Botanic..... fuelled by a certain Mr. Arthur. Guinness. ... Your model is so superbly realistic, it evokes these memories straight away! Excellent!!!!!

Tonight on the 1800 ex Galway was a crowd of noisy young lads with strong Dub accents making eejits of themselves shouting, swearing and drinking.... Two and a half hours of it... But at least it was good humoured noise.... Looked like they were maybe returning from a stag do or something.

WOW!!! Best 80 model I've ever seen....

It must have been, Hunslet! But the run was exciting..... Yes, the 80s were new. The first batch went into use in '74, the rest '77 / '78. The 70s, a few MPDs, and MEDs soldiered on a few years more. The last of the AECs and BUTs, from memory, disappeared in '74 / '75. The 80s struck us as odd at the time. We were used to railcar sets with either a gangwayed power car at each end, or a non gangway end one. Not a set with one of each! The 80s, obviously, were of this species. Odder still, the concept of 2 car sets was very unusual indeed. Almost all NIR trains of the day were 3 car, or more on the NCC. Even in the early 90s, the idea of a Derry train, once a major main line player, being a 2 car 80 was peculiar, given that what that actually meant was only one and a half carriages of actual passenger accommodation. I saw this service thus operated more than once, though to be fair it was usually a three piece.

Dunluce, that is seriously good stuff! Just for info, the guards van should be all over grey, no black bits, and a somewhat darker shade. (Yours looks like the DCDR version, which is entirely inaccurate, unfortunately - as is the black chassis on their "H" van). The reddish brown used on some wagons is close enough to BR bauxite, available from model shops in England. The NCC used standard LMS wagon grey, again available from Humbrol or whoever makes their paints nowadays. You will find photos of NCC wagons in the background in various photos in the IRRS premises in Dublin. For one of such youth, if you pardon me for saying, as others have said your standards are at the very top of the game. Your depth of knowledge is also, so membership of the IRRS would doubtless be invaluable to you. There is a wealth of information in their archives, and members who are regular attenders would be delighted to help you, I am sure. Of all the major companies, though, illustrations of their goods stock does seem harder to come by in books, for some reason; possibly because courtesy of the UTA, so much goods traffic in the NCC area vanished between the mid 50s and mid 60s. Good luck!