jhb171achill

I’ll just add a wheel to my post!

USES FOR SIX-WHEELERS IN THE DIESEL ERA As most will be aware, 6-wheelers lasted in day to day use here for decades longer than in the neighbouring island. Mass dieselisation, however, kicked off here to a greater extent, earlier than in Britain. Therefore, while six-wheelers would never have been seen in Britain being trailed round by class 47s, or tacked onto the back of a Metro-Cammell railcar set (sorry, “DMU” in brexitese), such was commonplace here; see numerous pictures of brand new A & C class diesels hauling a rake of 1890s six-wheelers to Youghal, Valentia Harbour, or in Wisht Caark. So, what goes with what? To start, where were 5-wheelers actually seen in passenger-carrying use? Until around 1900, all the railways of Ireland overwhelmingly used 6-wheelers, usually 30ft, but as short as 27ft (CBSCR) or as long as 37ft (BCDR). Bogies started taking over then, and by the mid 1920s, while six-wheelers greatly outnumbered them, they had made considerable inroads into main line trains. By the start of the CIE era, most main line services had bogies, but very large stocks of 6-wheelers remained. The first wave of mass dieselisation was the AEC railcars which would populate the GNR and CIE in 1950 and 1953 onwards. There is photographic evidence of ancient six-wheelers tagged onto the end of these. Offhand, I can think of photos taken on the Harcourt St line if a 3-car AEC towing a MGWR 3rd of 1890s origin, and a similar scene of a 4-car towing a similar vehicle on the South Kerry. With Albert Quay retaining some very old six-wheelers to the end, it’s highly probable thus happened on the CBSCR too. As we’re aware, prior to the advent in 1972 of the Mk 2 sets, almost every passenger train going way back, was a mixture of all sorts of carriage types. As far as 6-wheeler stock was concerned, this resulted in a possibility of these appearing in trains otherwise made up of bogies, or even complete 6-wheeled sets, on any branch or secondary service, and on Cork and DSER suburban traffic; also DSER and Youghal summer excursions. After the delivery of the A & C classes in the mid-50s, this would have resulted in six-wheelers being hauled by these diesels right up to the demise of the last of them in 1963. Thus, silver or green A & C classes are suitable DIESEL haulage for them, as are AEC railcar sets. And, of course, these diesels plus the 6-wheelers rubbed shoulders in (typically) mixed rakes with (new) Park Royals and laminates, and older Bredins and wooden bogies. While main line loco-hauled trains by the diesel era rarely saw them, busy days saw exceptions. I’ve seen a picture of a train somewhere near Hazelhatch, I think, steam hauled about 1957/8, with old wooden bogies and at least one 6-wheeler. All of the above relates to passenger carrying 6-wheelers. Full vans, however, were another matter. In addition to the above, these were very much to be seen on main lines as well, right into the dawn of the black’n’tan era. After the entire remaining fleet of passenger-carrying ones were withdrawn in 1963, about half a dozen full vans survived. Several, as followers of the Hattons thread will know, even managed to gain the black’n’tan livery (no passenger ones ever did). Despite passenger-carrying ones having become rare on main lines in the 50s, these last few vans ironically ended their days on main line trains, carrying mailbags usually. About three were still on the books up to 1969/70, but the latest photographic evidence I’ve seen is an old GSWR 6-wheeler full brake tagged onto an up Galway mail hauled by a B121 as late as 1968. So, in summary; a modeller could mix and match them with absolutely anything ancient or modern until the end ifvthe grey’n’green era, and steam, in 1963. The full van version, either in later (light green) livery or black tan, can be added onto a train right up to 1970. Suitable diesel haulage, then: Passenger-carrying: steam, silver or green A or C; and theoretically a brand-new grey B121. Non passenger (full van): the above, plus B141/181 in black or black’n’tan. When the first locos were repainted in “Supertrain” livery in 1972, the very last two six-wheeled vans had been out of use some three or four years. The Hattons range are very close indeed to GSWR design. However, by some quirk, in later days (early 1960s), the vast majority of passenger-carrying ones were of MGWR origin (very different) while the majority of old full vans were ex-GSWR.

Imagine THAT yoke in black’n’tan!

I think that in an increasingly unstable world, this type of delay is inevitable in many walks of life for some time to come. Someone I know is on a long waiting list for a new car due to similar, while another crony can’t finish off his 5” gauge tank engine because he can’t get some small part…..

Another top-class weathering job for my latest 00 Works J15, done by our own Dempsey. Here it is at Barrack St, Dundalk, before returning under its own steam to Dugort Harbour in the wild recesses of west Kerry.

Yes, I think so. More wagon offerings all the time now, of the 4-wheeled rather than bogie variety.

An addendum to the above; the variations I have suggested are two of the three GSR liveries, plus the GSWR livery. As non main line stock, I am unaware of any six wheelers ever carrying the brown and cream, which in any event was short lived. So you'd have the very dark Guinness-like very dark red - practically a dark blackish brown - with GSWR markings; then the same with GSR markings (1925-33), then the "LMS" maroon after about 1933. It seems that manufacturers find that the more livery more livery variations, the more viable a project is. (I would have though that the opposite might be the case, but there ye go; IRM might like to comment on the technicalities, out of interest?)

Update on this. Hattons are interested in principle. They are happy with the way the pre-orders for the CIE stuff are going; the black'n'tan van is sold out - despite being the rarest by far. Every single one of hundreds of these things were withdrawn between 1949 (DSER ones being mostly the early casualties) and the final ones in Cork in early 1963, which had only been retained for Youghal excursions - except - some SIX full vans plus a handful of old Midland thirds which went into departmental use as tool vans etc. The 6 full vans were all ex-GSWR, of several slightly different designs, one close enough to the generic Hattons design. Of those, probably only three ever became black'n'tan; 69, (now at the DCDR in altered state), 79, 10xx something, and possibly a fourth. Two more saw very little use despite being technically in use till the mid-60s, so it's highly likely they ended their days still green. Now - we'll all be aware of the lead-in period. The CIE ones were proposed long, long before any announcement; before Hornby did theirs, in fact. thus any expressions of interest at this stage will be, as the Donegal Catch TV ad would say, "filed away in a filin' cyabinet" for the future. Personally, and I know this debate has been done to death elsewhere, i am convinced that with a growing interest in the more historic side of railways here, there WILL be more stuff on the market in the future. It is not too long ago that the grey'n'green era was ignored by both manufacturers and modellers - but then along came Provincial leslie, 00 Works, Bachmann's train set, and IRM's magnificent "A"'s - and now Park Royals. A single day-to-day type steam loco, RTR, would kick this off, helped by the earlier designs of wagons of our own KMCE, Leslie, and SSM kits. Six-wheelers were the staple of so many trains well into CIE times. A RTR Bredin would be suitabloe to mix with them, back in GSR times' SSM do a nice kit of these. So - onwards and upwards. I'm away for my cocoa and smelling salts.

Early morning, sheep fair day, 1951.

Cue the IRM range of MGWR, GSWR & GNR prototypes!!!

I’m certain the demand will increase. With the norm in Ireland being various 4.4.0 and 0.6.0 types, one or both will be inevitable, I feel. A common and late-lasting GNR, MGWR or GSWR design of either type would seem the most logical.

Yes, absolute last coaches in maroon were early to mid 50s, but really the period 1945-50 is when there would have been more of a mix.

The 00 Works J15s (both types) would work well for these, but other than very very small number of SSM or JM Design brass kits, there’s nothing GSWR. Mind you, many GSWR branches were operated almost solely by J15s for decades - Mitchelstown, Newmarket, Kenmare and Castleisland come to mind. So a very reasonable layout could operate with nothing but these, just as a 1970 one could with nothing but 141s. I’ll find a pic to show the livery details. Basically it’s the same as BCDR / LMSNCC / (British) LMS maroon, as opposed to the very much darker “Guinness”-like hue of the GSWR. Like in earlier CIE times, a train of passenger stock would rarely have more than two vehicles the same. A brand new GSR Bredin could happily trundle along with a six wheeler built in the 1880s, and a 1915-era wooden bogie. new

And it’s off to town in 1966…..only two passengers this morning, and they’re in the van sharing a flask of tea with Johnny the guard, while they discuss the great issues of the day, like whether Ed will get his car fixed by Tuesday, and what is to be done about Michael’s cow shed roof. Meanwhile, Tom, alone in the cab, contemplates a job offer driving a post office van in Manchester, where his daughter lives…..

A shot taken from a moving car of the last train of the day passing Carrowmore Bog, in 1946, with a newly-outshopped 170 and a train of six-wheelers….

“Ye wouldn’t think of gettin’ up here and giving me a hand?” ”I looked in the shed - the other shovels are away with the PW lot…”

This is what I’m thinking! I would take some myself.

Question to our learned friends here: Hattons report very healthy interest in the CIE-livery coaches. Doubtless many here (meself included) have pre-ordered some. Would anyone be interested in a GSR-liveried range? Obviously, when CIE took over not everything had green paint slapped over it that very second. As we’ve seen with the 29 class railcars, it took over ten years for the last of them to become “green goddesses”. There was one C & L coach still in GSR maroon (albeit badly faded) as late as 1956. Thus, any early CIE layout could have a mix of newly-CIE’d coaches, and others still maroon….. So, for a layout of 1933-45 + a bit after…..? Thoughts?

Yes, it would; but not necessarily in the exact same building, perhaps? I’ve a notion that cabin was at the least very substantially modernised from its original form more recently.

That is just stunning!

I don't think it was original GSWR - more like 1960s CIE rebuild...?

Ghastly news. Commiserations - hope things get sorted out as well as they can, as soon as.

Not Dugort, but a steamy scene st a friend’s layout today. It’s 1959, and a UTA Jeep is visiting Dublin, seen here among three “Woolwich” types…

There’s worse disruption to services nowadays than the very worst periods of the Troubles!

"Installation of a locomotive"? Looks like recovery of a wreck!