Black and Tan origin story

[minister_for_hardship]

Happened to hear mention on the radio of an Animals of Dublin exhibition in the Little Museum of Dublin and cute story, the BnT livery was inspired by artist Patrick Scott's orange/black/white cat.

My go-to book On The Move (O'Riain) does not say how it came about and my other go-to book Railway Heraldry (George Dow) mentioned that the change from green to BnT was "on the advice of Scandinavian industrial consultants". So anyone know the definitive answer?

Jhb looking at you.

[jhb171achill]

5 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Happened to hear mention on the radio of an Animals of Dublin exhibition in the Little Museum of Dublin and cute story, the BnT livery was inspired by artist Patrick Scott's orange/black/white cat.

My go-to book On The Move (O'Riain) does not say how it came about and my other go-to book Railway Heraldry (George Dow) mentioned that the change from green to BnT was "on the advice of Scandinavian industrial consultants". So anyone know the definitive answer?

Jhb looking at you.

I've heard the "cat" story, Minister, indeed - though while many corroborate it, no hard evidence appears to exist to support it. CIE did indeed hire consultants about their image - an early example of such a strategy - and several American railways had colour schemes based on the same or similar colours which looked very striking. The idea of looking outside Ireland for livery ideas was nothing new. Inchicore had as good as copied LNWR lined black, down to the red-backed numberplates, between about 1895 and 1915, when the all-grey appeared. The GNR outright copied the English GNR in loco livery, and also coach livery. Even the GSR looked across the pond at the GWR for its 1926-34 "main line" chocolate and cream livery, and the LMS for its post-1933 mid-maroon.

The verdict has to be that either of these ideas, both, or even neither, are possible! I am unaware of any definitive record of who made the decision, and why. The only thing I recall hearing years ago is that the black'n'tan had been considered for buses too, but someone, somewhere hadn't liked that idea. The red and cream chosen was reminiscent of the livery of the old Irish Omnibus Co., which itself morphed (without change of livery) into the GSR bus services. The navy and cream Dublin city bus livery could well have come from an old Dublin tram livery / GNR bus livery as inspiration.

 

[flange lubricator]

The artist Patrick Scott was working for Michael Scott(no relation ) the architect of Scott Tallon Walker Architects, Michael Scott designed many Irish buildings including Busaras , Patrick Scott did all of the mosaics in that building . He was also later given the task of designing a new livery for CIE, part of the brief was to bring some uniformity and a streamlined look to the rolling stock which was all different shapes and sizes, so by  using lines running the length of the train that gave a streamlined look white at the top black in the centre and brown /burnt clay at the bottom and yes part of the inspiration was his cat 'Miss Mouse'  and her calico colouring of orange, black and white.

Edited July 12, 2022 by flange lubricator

[Westcorkrailway]

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I've heard the "cat" story, Minister, indeed - though while many corroborate it, no hard evidence appears to exist to support it. CIE did indeed hire consultants about their image - an early example of such a strategy - and several American railways had colour schemes based on the same or similar colours which looked very striking. The idea of looking outside Ireland for livery ideas was nothing new. Inchicore had as good as copied LNWR lined black, down to the red-backed numberplates, between about 1895 and 1915, when the all-grey appeared. The GNR outright copied the English GNR in loco livery, and also coach livery. Even the GSR looked across the pond at the GWR for its 1926-34 "main line" chocolate and cream livery, and the LMS for its post-1933 mid-maroon.

The verdict has to be that either of these ideas, both, or even neither, are possible! I am unaware of any definitive record of who made the decision, and why. The only thing I recall hearing years ago is that the black'n'tan had been considered for buses too, but someone, somewhere hadn't liked that idea. The red and cream chosen was reminiscent of the livery of the old Irish Omnibus Co., which itself morphed (without change of livery) into the GSR bus services. The navy and cream Dublin city bus livery could well have come from an old Dublin tram livery / GNR bus livery as inspiration.

 

And then the TGV then copied CIE…

[Ironroad]

Regardless as to the origins of this livery and whether it achieved the desired striking corporate image, it was perhaps an unfortunate choice of colours given their historical association. As a kid I remember some disquiet on the part of a family member but don't know how it was received generally. 

If it was influenced by a cat there was precedence.

 

 

[Galteemore]

33 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Regardless as to the origins of this livery and whether it achieved the desired striking corporate image, it was perhaps an unfortunate choice of colours given their historical association. As a kid I remember some disquiet on the part of a family member but don't know how it was received generally. 

If it was influenced by a cat there was precedence. 

 

Although interestingly the commemorative medal awarded to those who served in the War of Independence has a Black and Tan ribbon….very different to UK medallic practice, where medal ribbon design never incorporates the enemy’s uniform colours!

Pic from irishmedals.ie 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Galteemore

[Westcorkrailway]

25 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Although interestingly the commemorative medal awarded to those who served in the War of Independence has a Black and Tan ribbon….very different to UK medallic practice, where medal ribbon design never incorporates the enemy’s uniform colours!

Pic from irishmedals.ie 

Very interesting! although I’m right in saying the Black and Tans were more like the Green and kalkies anyway? So perhaps a little less traumatic of a medal…

 

Perhaps Todd andrews looked towards his medal collection for some inspiration

[Galteemore]

Well if you trace the ‘Black and Tan’ motif back all the way, it originally referred to the hounds of the Scarteen Hunt, whose coats are Black and Tan. The RIC men who acquired the nickname did indeed wear a mix of very dark green and khaki. Or it could simply be that a CIE official was drinking a Black and Tan…

[K801]

I wonder if P&T had any influence (photo from Google)

[Wexford70]

14 hours ago, K801 said:

I wonder if P&T had any influence (photo from Google)

By any chance is that photo of Wexford?