Where to find images/drawings of Waterford & Central Ireland Railway rolling stock?

[Flying Snail]

Hello all,

I found this forum a little while ago and its a great mine of information, but for a long time I held off joining as I've yet to do any serious modelling. What I have been doing is pondering what I'd like to have a go at on once I do get going. Which brings me to the W&CIR. Back in the 90s I used to hike out along the line from Portlaoise to Cúil na Móna, and either Mountmellick or Abbeyleix strike me as interesting locations to model. In particular, this picture of Abbeyleix fascinates me - its taken in the early 1900s after the GS&WR had taken over the W&CIR, but it has piqued my interest in the turn of the last century.

I know there's not much by way of suitable RTR (at least not until the big announcements from IRM this week ) so I reckon I'm going to end up giving scratch building a go at some point. I know there's some good resources for the GS&WR era to CIÉ era out there, but I'd like to see if anyone can point me towards the W&CIR?

I've already come across Paul Johnson's W&CIR loco photos on SmugMug, and I've a copy of Locomotive's of the GS&WR by Clements, McMahon and O'Rourke. I've also seen two articles in the Railway magazine (May 1952 and an earlier one with more loco pictures taken in Waterford). What I'm finding it very hard to source are images/drawings of other rolling stock - apart from two sets of drawings for a 2nd class 4-wheeler and a 3rd class 6-wheeler which I've gotten from the HMRS. I've seen @David Holman's workbench thread where he's made a very fine model of a W&CIR inspired brake van - I think its from a picture in Ernie Sheppard's WL&WR book which also shows a carriage and convertible cattle wagons, but I can't make out much detail from these. 

So to recap, there's a reasonable amount of loco photos, and the two HMRS carriage diagrams are a good start, but has anybody any leads on where I might get images/drawings of W&CIR goods stock in particular?

[Westcorkrailway]

Welcome “flying snail” 

 

very ambitious project you have planned! All pre grouping can be difficult. It would all obviously have to be scratchbuilt unless a suitible conversion exists out there somehwre? (Hattons genesis coaches would be my first port of call) 

 

@jhb171achill have you got anything lying around somehere? Maybe even ciril fry had a model of something or other 

[Flying Snail]

Thanks @Westcorkrailway - I'm under no illusions, this one will be a slow burner!

I do have something a little more recent (and probably a lot more practical) in mind too  - though its something from completely different era. I've seen a pic from Eiretrains of A30 in Mountmellick with a 1961 rail tour and there was the annual beet campaigns around then too. So there's a few options there in an extremely run-down Mountmellick in the years just before the line was lifted ... and yes, I've already picked up my model A30 from IRM (and very handsome it is too )

[jhb171achill]

Flying Snail, you are very welcome here indeed.

It is an absolute pleasure to hear of yet another modeller tackling the earlier world of the railways. Yes, the W&CI is a fascinating subject matter.

In terms of deciding on Mountmellick or Abbeyleix, both of which are excellent ideas, I suppose the main consideration here is whether you want a terminus station or a through station. The former will mean Mountmellick is better, the latter Abbeyleix.

I have timetables going back to 1926 for these places, and a few odd ones from earlier, if that's any use. In terms of rolling stock and wagons, I'm not sure what i might have - probably not very much, though I may be able to dig up some livery details. However, I will do a bit of diggin about and see if I can find anything. Early wagons are likely to be much the same as early GSWR ones.

If you are indeed going for a later era, the GSR period before passenger services ended at Mountmellick will give you a much wider amount of fodder.

Edited October 24, 2022 by jhb171achill

[Westcorkrailway]

7 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Thanks @Westcorkrailway - I'm under no illusions, this one will be a slow burner!

I do have something a little more recent (and probably a lot more practical) in mind too  - though its something from completely different era. I've seen a pic from Eiretrains of A30 in Mountmellick with a 1961 rail tour and there was the annual beet campaigns around then too. So there's a few options there in an extremely run-down Mountmellick in the years just before the line was lifted ... and yes, I've already picked up my model A30 from IRM (and very handsome it is too )

It really is up to you. While I’d like to go Full cork bandon and south coast railway. I found it more practical to stick to what’s out there and maybe as I gain experience work my way back lol 

 

you could make a the station in its “prime” in the 1890s or 1930s and run 1950s/1960s rolling stock on it with a different head cannon to what actually happened. For instance my grand plan is to build a kinsale Junction layout based on the autumn of 1960. Having the CBSC mainline and the kinsale branch(In spite of the fact the kinsale branch was lifted In the 30!) and maybe even the quarry branch which closed earlier again… 

I’m not sure what ran on that line in GSR days but there is RTR GSWR J-15s and a CBSC Shunter (which 100 percent never ran there!) both in GSR livery out there somewhere. Coaches from this era should be easier to make up 

I’m sure you know the story with what’s available with Early CIE era rolling stock to suit A30

[jhb171achill]

OK, from my records, W&CIR liveries were as follows:

 

LOCOMOTIVES

Several liveries are recorded, but the dates when they were introduced and replaced are not recorded. The W&CI became part of the GSWR in 1896, so GSWR liveries are the norm after that, then GSR, finally CIE.

1.  Very dark green, probably a shade darker than Brunswick green, brown frames, black and light green lining. It is possible that it was a dark olive green. This appears to be the earliest recorded, but is so similar to contemporary GSWR loco livery that it might actually BE that; in which case the very first W&CI livery is lost to time. Many, if not most, early locomotives on most lines with most companies were however some sort of green livery, or occasionally dark red or brown.

2.  Following GSWR takeover, by 1899 the basic livery was the same but the lining was different. The green parts had black and light green lining with another red line on the cab and on the tender. The brown frames had a black border and red lining.

3.  Perhaps concurrently with this, some GSWR locos had, again, the same livery but with cream and black lining.

4.  Further lining variations seem to have been tried out, with some locos as late as 1902 having the green livery but with light green and black lining again.

5.  After GSWR takeover, from around 1901 the green livery started being replaced by all over black lined in red until around 1915-18, after which plain unlined grey (under GSWR, GSR & CIE) until the line closed.

 

COACHING STOCK

It is possible that these were at first a dark blue colour, as this is recorded at an unspecified date. Gold lettering and dark red lining was added. However, at some stage early on the GSWR style of livery was adopted, in the form of an extremely dark maroon-brown colour known as "crimson lake" - which in traffic looked almost black - in reality and joking aside, like the VERY dark red of Guinness! Lining was red and gold.

In GSR days this livery continued, albeit with GSR markings instead of GSWR; but in 1933 a much lighter maroon, akin to that of the (British) LMS, and (here) the NCC and BCDR, became the norm, with simplified lining. This would persist to 1945, when any carriages which threaded their way through the weeds into Mountmellick would now be in CIE green.

 

GOODS STOCK

Wagons were reported as being a very dark slate grey, much darker than grey shades used on such vehicles a few decades later. Once the GSWR took over, wagons were often painted black in the very early years of the 20th century, but reverted to a dark slate grey with "G  S  W  R" and the number on them later. By 1925 they were "standard" wagon grey, which remained the case until almost the end of the life of the line, though lighter shades appeared by then. Lettering was white.

In W&CIR days, wagon ironwork was initially picked out in black, but the GSWR abandoned this and wagons were plain grey soon after they took over.

The W&CIR crest which appeared on the sides of the carriages had the company name in a garter surrounding the arms of Waterford & Kilkenny.

In terms of Cyril Fry's models, he did not make any from this line. However, he did do models of other early railways, notably the Dublin & Kingstown, Dundalk & Drogheda, Waterford & Tramore, and Ulster. Design-wise, you might like to take a run into Malahide Model Railway Museum and have a poke about there - if you tip me off as to when you're coming I can meet you there and get some of them ready for you to take pictures of.

[Mayner]

Modelling a railway like the W&CI especially in the pre-1900 era will be challenging with little readily available information or trade support.

Smaller companies like the W&CI bought their locos and stock from British builders/finance companies and drawings of W&CI locos and stock may exist in UK museum collections.

It may be a case of working back through available Irish records to identify the builders and order dates for W&CI locos and stock before contacting British museums.

A paper on the W&CI was published in an IRRS Journal during the 70s or 80s and there may be basic information on W&CI railway locos and stock in books on the GSWR and WLWR.

The late Richard Chown appears to have relied on the original British builders drawings for the locos and stock on his 7mm pre-1900 Castlerackrent system https://highlandmiscellany.com/tag/castle-rackrent/ including oddities such as a Dublin & Meath Railway Brake Van and Cork Macroom Direct Railway covered goods.

The Historic Model Railway Society may be able to assist in identifying which museum collections hold the relevant drawings.

If you intend modelling W&CI locos and stock 7mm or O scale may be a better option than 4mm or OO in terms of the larger scale being easier for scratchbuilding and sheer physical presence of the smaller size of the stock and shorter trains than ran in the 1900 era.

[David Holman]

Beat me to it John, sounds very much like a Castle Rackrent type project - that first stage anyway. Let's face it though, doing any Irish outline modelling, apart from modern image, has never been easy, but that is part of the attraction.

 My WCI four wheeler was indeed inspired by the grainy photo in Ernie Shepherd's WL&WR book, which also includes several better pictures of other early coaching stock. However, there really isn't a lot around and what there is is probably in JHB's head! Quite where he gets all the livery stuff from, I've no idea, but am certainly very grateful and likewise to all the other good folk on this forum.

 Anyway, for what it's worth, my own forays into Irish Railways have shown me that there is stuff out there if you look hard enough, though it does diminish the further you go back in history. Hence a degree of compromise becomes necessary, very much the case with my four wheel coach and why those generic Hatton's coaches aren't the worst idea either.

 If you are starting from scratch, I'd certainly encourage you to do the right gauge and likewise 7mm scale is arguably easier too. The Alphagraphix catalogue has some wonderful stuff in it, including a 2-2-2WT and four and six wheel coaches, plus a host of card kits for wagons all of which would make great starting points for a WCI project.

 Come on in, the water is lovely!

[Flying Snail]

Thanks for the welcome folks - and for all that info! There's plenty to ponder there!

@Westcorkrailway - I am leaning more on the Victorian stuff at the moment, but starting with what's there and working back seems like a good strategy. I like the work you've been doing on rolling stock conversions by the way - very inspiring.

@jhb171achill - wow: thanks very much for that livery info! I see a trip to the museum in Malahide in my immediate future . Anything WCI related I'm definitely interested in, so GSR era timetables would be very welcome. Do you think any of the other WCI passenger stock lasted lasted far enough into GSWR days to feature in any of the GSWR carriage diagrams collections? 

@Mayner - I have a couple of your 3d models - an open wagon and a brake van that could nicely tie in with GSR/CIE era. I think they are great, the level of detail is excellent. So I really hope you find a solution to your 3D printer issues. I also have to say that the Abbeyleix picture I linked above actually prompted me to get your class 52 kit - to my untrained eye its very impressive and the deal in instructions show your attention to detail. Its not for beginners though, so the kit is in the drawer until I get confident enough with the soldering iron. I reckon pairing it with some Studio Scale Models six-wheelers might go a long way towards recreating that scene from the picture.  Speaking of which, does anybody think that the SSM six wheelers would be a good option to cut my teeth on brass kits or should I go for something like their open wagon instead?

@David Holman I've been looking back over your thread where you talk about the WCI build - wow - I'll definitely have a look at Alphagraphix and 7mm.

As you can see, I've a lot of thoughts bouncing around in my head so I just need to focus and start one of them off. But first, I'm off to check out Castlerackrent ...

Edited October 25, 2022 by Flying Snail
removed duplicate text

[jhb171achill]

If you need access to any IRRS Journals, I have a complete collection going back to 1946. If someone can tell me what date the article referred to above was included, I will fish it out and send it to you.

With Mayner's 52 class, perhaps some time between 1900 & 1910 might be a better start?

I suspect there may be more stuff released in the not-too-distant future which might also be of use. Also, if there's any chance you can get hold of a 00 Works J15 (all sold out, like hen's teeth), then grab one!

[Flying Snail]

33 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

If you need access to any IRRS Journals, I have a complete collection going back to 1946. If someone can tell me what date the article referred to above was included, I will fish it out and send it to you.

With Mayner's 52 class, perhaps some time between 1900 & 1910 might be a better start?

1900 - 1910 might be a better starting point alright, and who knows where I'll end up . IRRS Journal 074 (October 1977) has an article on the WCIR which I'd be grateful to see if you have it handy?

[jhb171achill]

Your wish is my command…..

 

Don't ask me why the pages post in the wrong order - anyone know? I took them in the RIGHT order!

 

[jhb171achill]

Again, pages come out the wrong way = middle image should be below the lower one.

 

[Broithe]

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Again, pages come out the wrong way = middle image should be below the lower one.

At least they're the right way up...

[Flying Snail]

Thanks a million @jhb171achill - great reading there and the slightest, tiniest tease of a carraige and an open wagon in a couple of those pics! 

[jhb171achill]

1 minute ago, Flying Snail said:

Thanks a million @jhb171achill - great reading there and the slightest, tiniest tease of a carraige and an open wagon in a couple of those pics! 

I'm looking to see if I can find a WCIR carriage in a photo..... if I can I'll post it here.

[jhb171achill]

Ah - was barking up the wrong tree. It's not a WCIR one that I'm thinking of. No, no pic....... but I'll keep my eyes open.

[David Holman]

Gold dust!

[Flying Snail]

Not to worry @jhb171achill, you've already produced a goldmine!

Another thing that also might appeal to those interested in the WLWR and GSWR (and shipping too), is that I came across a lot of interesting late 19th century and early 20th  photos on the National Library's website taken from Mount Misery and overlooking the station area and the quays. Lots of good panorama shots there and most are a very good resolution meaning you can zoom in - and because they're panorama shots if you set the 'railroad' filter on you'll actually miss some of the more interesting ones. The original WLWR terminus was a beautiful building ....

[Flying Snail]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

 

 

 

Reading about the fate of some of the coaching stock on page 124 of the IRRS article, there's three carriages mentioned.

One was sold to the W&T, and the drawings for that are available from the HMRS and Alan O'Rourke wrote a short article about scratch building a model of it in the HMRS Journal vol. 19 #12 (I have that stashed away somewhere if its helpful to anyone?).

The other two carriages became GSWR 600 and 601 - eventually being converted into ''beer vans" by the GSR. 601 ended its days as a hut in Monasterevan. I wonder if anyone has come across any photos of 600 and 601?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Flying Snail

[jhb171achill]

58 minutes ago, Flying Snail said:

Reading about the fate of some of the coaching stock on page 124 of the IRRS article, there's three carriages mentioned.

One was sold to the W&T, and the drawings for that are available from the HMRS and Alan O'Rourke wrote a short article about scratch building a model of it in the HMRS Journal vol. 19 #12 (I have that stashed away somewhere if its helpful to anyone?).

The other two carriages became GSWR 600 and 601 - eventually being converted into ''beer vans" by the GSR. 601 ended its days as a hut in Monasterevan. I wonder if anyone has come across any photos of 600 and 601?

They’re absent from my 1924 GSWR diagram book, though they apparently lasted (in some form or other) Neil 1933.

There was a bit of a purge of all sorts of very old or redundant stock during 1932/3.

[Flying Snail]

More progress. Got my hands on a secondhand book of Ken Nunn photos: Steam in Camera 1898-1960 : Second Series by Patrick Russell. - and found this on page 43:

 

[jhb171achill]

I would think that those "uncomfortable" flat-sided coaches would have been withdrawn just about as immediately as the GSWR could manage it. I've never heard of any getting GSWR livery - but more importantly, Inchicore was churning out brand new bogies by this stage, so there was a very good stock of quite new 6-wheelers drifting about to replace them.

[Flying Snail]

Yes, all the references I've come across indicate that they were almost immediately withdrawn - it seems very hard to get pictures of WCIR stock. The same picture actually appears in Railways in Ireland Part Four: Great Southern & Western by Martin Bairstow. I picked up a copy of that too on my hunt for WCIR pictures. It has a short section on the WCIR with that photo together with photos of stations including one of Mountmellick from an unusual angle taken during a 1961 railtour (which will be handy if I go ahead and base a layout there).

The hunt continues 

 

[jhb171achill]

Some of the other small companies taken over by the GSWR a long time ago were the same - old and very inferior passenger stock, which the GSWR dumped almost instantly - along with their wagons.

[Flying Snail]

I'm hopeful that there might be some more Ken Nunn shots of the WCIR somewhere from his 1900 visit to Waterford .... although I'm mindful too that in 1900 camera-technology didn't allow you to just snap away rapid-fire like.

[Flying Snail]

Photo: GSWR 600 - 30' Saloon Third 

Found a RN Clements picture of an illusive former WCIR carriage thanks to this spot on the ebay watch thread. I went ahead and purchased it and it arrived this morning. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I hope I can spot it or its sister 601 in other archives!

Am well-chuffed (pardon the pun) 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Flying Snail

[Colin R]

Sadly my scanner is not working but if anyone else can send you a copy of an article by David Walker from the Railway Modeller dated November 1985 it is four pages of a 7mm scale layout called Killaney so that has some details that might prove interesting.

It might also be worth contacting the new irish lines magazine website https://newirishlines.org/ or the facebook page https://www.facebook.com/NewIrishLines/followers they may also be able to put you in contact with other modellers like yourself.

 

Colin  

 

[Colin R]

Also have a look here https://www.dropbox.com/s/b1gvs4usgmrgqei/Irish Lines Drawings Index (J.P.James%2C 1992).pdf

And I should also not forget our friend at Alphagraphix kits   https://www.alphagraphixkits.co.uk/

[jhb171achill]

11 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

Photo: GSWR 600 - 30' Saloon Third 

Found a RN Clements picture of an illusive former WCIR carriage thanks to this spot on the ebay watch thread. I went ahead and purchased it and it arrived this morning. Now that I know what I'm looking for, I hope I can spot it or its sister 601 in other archives!

Am well-chuffed (pardon the pun) 

Very interesting indeed - that's a beauty. I'd like one of those myself. Curious as to why there's no "3" on the doors, though - that was standard with the GSR, and it's in the later GSR (LMS maroon) livery judging by the lining.

Edited January 28, 2023 by jhb171achill

[jhb171achill]

Incidentally, lately someone asked me if I had livery details fro the W & C I R. I knew I did somewhere; here goes:

Locomotives: Similar to GSWR - a very dark olive green with light green, red and black lining, black boiler bands and brown frames edged in black and red. One source suggests that loco tenders only had a single red lining.

Carriages: Very dark lake with vermillion and gold lines, again almost identical to GSWR. Quite possibly, they got their locos and coaches painted at inchicore. However, another source suggests a dark blue livery with elaborate lining. My suspicion would be that they might have started off like this, but repaints were later done in GSWR style. If so, this would amplify a theory of work being sub-contracted to Inchicore. Alternately, the "blue" theory might simply be wrong, as all other sources suggest a very dark maroon, like a GSWR-esque purply-brown "Guinness" colour. Balance of probability is therefore with the dark maroon. Carriages had the company's crest in the centre.

Wagons were slate grey all over with white lettering. Unusually, it seems that metalwork was picked out in black - at least on the chassis, anyway.

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by jhb171achill

[Flying Snail]

10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Very interesting indeed - that's a beauty. I'd like one of those myself. Curious as to why there's no "3" on the doors, though - that was standard with the GSR, and it's in the later GSR (LMS maroon) livery judging by the lining.

I was taken by that too - and did you notice the bars in the windows? Given the poor reputation of WCIR carriages I was beginning to wonder if there was some fate worse than 3rd class travel  on the GS&WR.

So then, I had a read of the IRRS article that you posted above back when I first started asking about the WCIR, and the answer to this problem (like so many others) appears to be: BEER 

Quote

"Of the three kept by the GS&WR, one was a 3rd/brake, and the others were 3rd class saloons built 1897-8 as replacements for carriages destroyed in a fire in Waterford carriage shed in 1895. They were numbered GS&WR 600-1, and some thirty years later were refurbished as “beer vans” for excursion traffic;"

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Flying Snail

[Flying Snail]

12 hours ago, Colin R said:

Also have a look here https://www.dropbox.com/s/b1gvs4usgmrgqei/Irish Lines Drawings Index (J.P.James%2C 1992).pdf

And I should also not forget our friend at Alphagraphix kits   https://www.alphagraphixkits.co.uk/

Thanks @Colin R - some good leads there: I'll keep my eyes peeled for David Walker's article too!

[Rob R]

Good Morning,

Sorry to butt in on my first posting but I have not found anywhere for new member introductions.

I too have been looking for any information on W&CIR locos and stock for a potential S Scale  layout and this is what I have found so far - precious little!

From the National Library of Ireland:-

  https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000329450 a glimpse of W&CIR No 12

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000590012 W&CIR van just behind the erstwhile WL&WR N0 34

From an unknown internet source a low res copy of a Vulcan Foundry works photo of 8 and 9

Another low res works photo, this time of  No 4

From  Leeds Engine Fowler 240 in original form

From Chasewater Stuff (sorry, can't find the link right now) No 11

And lastly for now, from The Engineer (sorry I didn't make a note of which issue, will get back to you with that and a link) Nos 10 and 11

The Mersyside Maritime Museum has some relevant Vulcan Foundry bits including a drawing of the inside framed tender on the Vulcan 240's No 8 & 9. I will try and dig out the details for you.

If I find anything else I will post it here.

Rob

 

[Flying Snail]

These are excellent Rob - thanks for sharing. And welcome on board!

Coincidently - last night, I found an impression of the Waterford & Kilkenny Railway's* seal in a 1912 article in the Railway Magazine. Note, company seals would have been used to stamp official documents etc. and they are not the same as armourial devices that many railway companies (GSWR, WLWR, etc.) placed on their rolling stock. However, it's reasonable to assume that those devices would have been inspired/developed from the company seals, and so would be similar in design.

* Waterford & Kilkenny Railway is the original name of the WCIR

Edited April 21, 2023 by Flying Snail