New Stations

[226 Abhann na Suire]

Was on the train into Dublin the other day and was pleasantly surprised to pass Kishogue all covered in temporary fencing on the platforms with lots of the weeds and vegetation that had grown, seemingly removed.  I’ve seen as well that the new route map signs on the platforms of the Kildare suburban route stations feature Kishogue on them. Similarly, Woodbrook is advertised on the respective route maps in all the DART stations. Just thought it might be nice to have an thread for updates on both of these projects and any new ones, like the new/reopened stations proposed for the Cork area like Blarney, Blackpool, Tivolli, etc. Does anyone have any info on any of these at all? 

[irishrailways52]

hear is a news article about kishogue from the irish times

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/01/30/dublin-ghost-station-will-open-this-year/

 

[226 Abhann na Suire]

News on the new Woodbrook Station between Shankill and Bray, the first sod has been dug! Now we just have to wait for some sort of unexpected archaeological discovery, a giant rise in the cost of the project thanks to inflation, and a massive general delay and hopefully we’ll see the station open before the turn of the century…

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by 226 Abhann na Suire

[Gabhal Luimnigh]

That's probably the site of a rare slug on the verge of extinction, the station will have to be moved, new planning etc and it will be a runner in 2033

[irishrailways52]

even if it does open on time the ticketing system probably wont recognise it like what happened when hazalhach to grand canal dock started

[Darrman]

Will the suburb Woodbrook is being built to serve come about or will we end up with another Kishogue situation? Certainly I see a whole lot of fields, but there is evidence of construction close enough.

The station will roughly be where I drew a red circle (source: the planning permission page and documents within). Let's hope we don't end up with every single Dart stopping for a graveyard and golf course, and that the relevant construction doesn't have something stupid end up happening. Knowing this country, stupidity is inevitable. In Cork, they keep trotting out the "events centre" of non-existence every so often...

[Flying Snail]

Well theres significant development ongoing in the centre of the image above, so it looks to me that this could be a (rare) case of homes and supporting infrastructure being built together. 

[GSR 800]

5 hours ago, Darrman said:

Will the suburb Woodbrook is being built to serve come about or will we end up with another Kishogue situation? Certainly I see a whole lot of fields, but there is evidence of construction close enough.

The station will roughly be where I drew a red circle (source: the planning permission page and documents within). Let's hope we don't end up with every single Dart stopping for a graveyard and golf course, and that the relevant construction doesn't have something stupid end up happening. Knowing this country, stupidity is inevitable. In Cork, they keep trotting out the "events centre" of non-existence every so often...

https://lovindublin.com/news/new-dart-station-woodbrook

Built to serve a new housing development of 5,000 people 

[Mayner]

Not the first railway station at Woodbrook a two platform halt at MP 11 used to serve the Golf Course most likely for major events but later disused.

 

[Ironroad]

Maybe I'm missing the logic but access to that station does not look convenient and hardly justifiable in context of the catchment area.

It would be more logical to spend the money on a station at the junction of  Landen Rd and Kylemore Rd in Ballyfermot.

[Flying Snail]

I'd imagine that route is at capacity until it can be four-tracked from Park West into Heuston. Although even then, the DART South West plans don't say anything about a Ballyfermot station that I can see

27 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

It would be more logical to spend the money on a station at the junction of  Landen Rd and Kylemore Rd in Ballyfermot.

 

[DoctorPan]

55 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

Maybe I'm missing the logic but access to that station does not look convenient and hardly justifiable in context of the catchment area.

It would be more logical to spend the money on a station at the junction of  Landen Rd and Kylemore Rd in Ballyfermot.

Kylemore station is currently undergoing design work.

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, DoctorPan said:

Kylemore station is currently undergoing design work.

How much design is involved in providing two platforms, a pillbox booking office and using the existing road bridge rather than a footbridge as in other places, it could be done in weeks,

Had that line been operated by the GNR rather than the GSR a station would have been built in Ballyfermot seventy years ago (eg Harmonstown 1957)). It is a very sad reflection on the thinking within CIE and the Dept. of Transport that no one has had the vision to do this in all those decades, but it's OK in 2023 to prioritise a station in Woodbrook, that has minimal benefit, over Ballyfermot. There is no excusing this.  Please forgive the rant.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Ironroad
typo

[Ironroad]

2 hours ago, Flying Snail said:

I'd imagine that route is at capacity until it can be four-tracked from Park West into Heuston. Although even then, the DART South West plans don't say anything about a Ballyfermot station that I can see

 

Hardly, it's just another stop for the existing suburban services. That line of thought didn't deter the opening of a station on the heavily congested northern line at Clongriffin.   In any event pressure on the southern line could easily be relieved by reopening the line between Mullingar and Athlone, that closure was an own goal. 

[Flying Snail]

Ballina, Westport, Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork and Waterford intercity services, as well as the Portlaoise suburban services all use that line into Heuston. I'm still not sure there's spare capacity even if they reopened Mullingar to Athlone and moved the Connacht traffic back to its 'spiritual home'. It would make for slower journey times west and introduce congestion for the suburban services east of Maynooth on the Sligo line. I expect it would probably require major additional works too - and not just on the stretch between Mullingar and Athlone.

Don't get me wrong: I think there should be a station in Ballyfermot by the way, and I agree it probably should have been done years ago. I just don't think that it's that straightforward as things currently stand. I'm hopeful that DART+ will bring major improvements and I'm pleased to see DoctorPan's confirmation that a Kylemore Station is in the pipeline.

[Ironroad]

1 hour ago, Flying Snail said:

Ballina, Westport, Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork and Waterford intercity services, as well as the Portlaoise suburban services all use that line into Heuston. I'm still not sure there's spare capacity even if they reopened Mullingar to Athlone and moved the Connacht traffic back to its 'spiritual home'. It would make for slower journey times west and introduce congestion for the suburban services east of Maynooth on the Sligo line. I expect it would probably require major additional works too - and not just on the stretch between Mullingar and Athlone.

Don't get me wrong: I think there should be a station in Ballyfermot by the way, and I agree it probably should have been done years ago. I just don't think that it's that straightforward as things currently stand. I'm hopeful that DART+ will bring major improvements and I'm pleased to see DoctorPan's confirmation that a Kylemore Station is in the pipeline.

I hear what you are saying and I don't wish to seem contrary but what I find maddening is the the horribly inept, inefficient and unimaginative use of the network over many decades. Who degraded the MGWR network? Dare I say it was KIngsbridge centric pipe smokers after the formation of the GSWR, succeeded and perpetuated  by a similar ilk in CIE.

Plain and simple if there is congestion on the southern line, that was engineered by CIE/Irish Rail by eliminating alternative routes. Routing trains to Ballina, Westport and  Galway by sending them south is logical ???.  Despite the sabotage of the MGWR network, it should  be relatively inexpensive to restore the double track sections given that the track bed still exists.   I suspect that cost would be a  a lot less than they are lavishing on what should be simple suburban halts- which is a horrible misuse of funds, that does nothing to facilitate the travelling public or fulfil their mandate.

As regards traffic on the line between Dublin and Maynooth, this is  is very light with only 47 trains each way on weekdays. (an average of 23 minutes between trains). So Ballina, Westport and Galway trains would actually improve service to Maynooth. There is a self financing aspect to all of this as money could go into restoring infrastructure rather than additional rolling stock to service Maynooth..

I sincerely doubt that providing a simple halt station at Ballyfermot should be a problem despite the level of traffic on the line. it's just an additional stop for trains already using the route. As I said if it could be done at Clongriffin it can and should be done there.

 

 

[GSR 800]

28 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

I hear what you are saying and I don't wish to seem contrary but what I find maddening is the the horribly inept, inefficient and unimaginative use of the network over many decades. Who degraded the MGWR network? Dare I say it was KIngsbridge centric pipe smokers after the formation of the GSWR, succeeded and perpetuated  by a similar ilk in CIE.

Plain and simple if there is congestion on the southern line, that was engineered by CIE/Irish Rail by eliminating alternative routes. Routing trains to Ballina, Westport and  Galway by sending them south is logical ???.  Despite the sabotage of the MGWR network, it should  be relatively inexpensive to restore the double track sections given that the track bed still exists.   I suspect that cost would be a  a lot less than they are lavishing on what should be simple suburban halts- which is a horrible misuse of funds, that does nothing to facilitate the travelling public or fulfil their mandate.

As regards traffic on the line between Dublin and Maynooth, this is  is very light with only 47 trains each way on weekdays. (an average of 23 minutes between trains). So Ballina, Westport and Galway trains would actually improve service to Maynooth. There is a self financing aspect to all of this as money could go into restoring infrastructure rather than additional rolling stock to service Maynooth..

 

 

They'd have to rip up the greenway to get double track back down Mullingar-Galway etc. Definitely not happening with the current crowd in, since the greenway was done under their watch. Any reopening would require serious work. Do you get rid of the Greenway? Leave it running alongside with a big fuck off fence/wall running the whole length of the line?

The biggest thing that can be done rn IMO is double-tracking The Sligo line. Would significantly improve services on the line, putting an end to loop bottlenecks, allowing for more regular services and better timing. The morning commuters and rush hour intercities are usually packed to the gills. 

 

[jhb171achill]

On 27/11/2023 at 4:25 PM, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

News on the new Woodbrook Station between Shankill and Bray, the first sod has been dug! Now we just have to wait for some sort of unexpected archaeological discovery, a giant rise in the cost of the project thanks to inflation, and a massive general delay and hopefully we’ll see the station open before the turn of the century…

 

Mighty odd looking track in those pictures..........

[Darrman]

11 hours ago, Ironroad said:

It would be more logical to spend the money on a station at the junction of  Landen Rd and Kylemore Rd in Ballyfermot.

The Dart+ Southwest plans for Kylemore Road bridge mention making provision for a station at that location, though they won't build any station as part of that project.

Source: https://www.dartplus.ie/getattachment/9fb2b4a1-400c-4a27-898e-4778ba33cd1c/Volume-3C-Option-Selection-Le-Fanu-Bridge-to-Kylemore-Bridge.pdf

The plans also make mention of passive provision for a station at Cabra where the sidings used to be (link here). Image is from page 19.

While I see nothing stopping Irish Rail from building something at Cabra tomorrow, it's probably better to do Kylemore with the Dart works. Building a station just to knock it a few years later to allow four tracks would be foolish. The Dart plans entail doing Dart+ West first, which is all well and good. Unfortunately, Ireland's planning system is glacial, as you all know, and when I went to the railway order page, it turns out Irish Rail have submitted an updated enviromental impact statement this month forcing yet another statutory consultation... I'll link the statement here for those interested. Needless to say, this wasn't much publicised. Maybe it will be done at the end of the decade?

Regarding the MGWR main line, putting a big bike track on top of it is a ridiculous notion, and that's exactly what happened. Rip it up - not that it will be. I passed through Athlone a few months ago; the railway (if you can call it that) is in a sorry state. Does anyone have any idea how well-used the "greenway" is? I took a photo looking towards Dublin. From memory the line had been lifted beyond the last level crossing in the Galway direction, but I didn't take a photo of that side. It would be a lot of work to reinstate Mullingar-Athlone. You'd have to reopen Athlone Midland, relay the entire line, bulldoze the bike track or fence off the cyclists. If the cyclists can stay, what do you do for passing loops? Divert them around Moate? Cyclists on a platform would only lead to trouble. If doubling the line, the cyclists have to go. I've no idea of the state of Mullingar: is the Galway side of the station still connected?

Doubling Maynooth-Mullingar should be little trouble though. Getting a platform under the bridge at Kilcock does seem awkward, but since the line was built as double there shouldn't be much of a problem. Even if Irish Rail thought full doubling was too much, actually using Enfield's second platform would be a very simple measure. How much does a footbridge cost? If going on to Sligo, the MGWR's limit of doubling was Longford, I believe; going further would therefore be more expensive. I'd like to see just how many trains a day go by which line segments to see where doubling is best, but this post is getting long enough and it's already very late.

[DoctorPan]

15 hours ago, Ironroad said:

How much design is involved in providing two platforms, a pillbox booking office and using the existing road bridge rather than a footbridge as in other places, it could be done in weeks,

Had that line been operated by the GNR rather than the GSR a station would have been built in Ballyfermot seventy years ago (eg Harmonstown 1957)). It is a very sad reflection on the thinking within CIE and the Dept. of Transport that no one has had the vision to do this in all those decades, but it's OK in 2023 to prioritise a station in Woodbrook, that has minimal benefit, over Ballyfermot. There is no excusing this.  Please forgive the rant.

No it couldn't and frankly shows lack of awareness of the complex planning involved in station design. The requirements and justification required for a station is detailed and its not just a matter of building a station whereever they want. It's an area with large development plans that are currently under way. It actually is one of the rare cases of building infrastructre in Ireland before it's fully required. It should be commended not ranted about.

 

The site is part of DART + SW and so is entailed within their railway order and planning process. Sure we could plop a station down tomorrow only to have to demolish it in a few years time when they quad track the area. Or we quad track the section when we build the station and then that changes the project from a simple station build to a complex matter including CPOs. Likewise with Cabra, it is better to build the station around the existing DART infrastructure then adding another contraint in an area that is pushing the limits of what can be achieved in terms of engineering.

 

Thirdly the Connolly - Maynooth corridor is already increditably congested and the plans are to remove trains from Connolly, increasing trains would be utter maddness and would reek of desire to destroy the rail network not improve it. 

 

[DJ Dangerous]

Speaking from a non-engineering and non-railway-insider angle, is there any way of futuro proofing to an extent, without increasing costs too much?

For example, leaving space between the platforms for four tracks instead of two? The two tracks would obviously need to run far enough apart to service both platforms and leave space in the centre for future tracks. This probably applies more to new builds. Surely, in this case, the only additional cost is more landscaping and a longer bridge?

Or building one of the two platforms as an Island platform, with hoarding to hide that fact? Therefore allowing two more tracks be laid the other side of the Island platform in the future? This probably applies more to adding stations to current trackwork.

Again, speaking from an outsider perspective.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

I was looking at this the other day actually, in terms of the All Island Rail Review, and the plans there for a Maynooth to Lucan Rail link seem like a very viable option for bringing certain Sligo express and other trains off of what will become a very congested route with DART+ West. 
 

Heuston Station is the best option for routing extra traffic, I don’t see much sense in rerouting all ex-MGWR services to Connolly, especially with the fact that the Maynooth line can only become more congested and beyond Liffey Junction, the viaducted line leaves no scope at all for capacity upgrades. 
 

Between Parkwest and Heuston however, there is definitely space for quad-tracking, even trebling at the very least, and with all of the car park space and old goods sidings out the side of Heuston, the potential to stick a few extra platforms on the side of the station to cope for extra traffic is very much there. Allowing Sligo line services to come off the Maynooth line and into Heuston would not only be a capacity no brainier - there being (hopefully in the future) 4 tracks all the way between Hazelhatch (maybe eventually Kildare) and Heuston - but would also help to further centralise our rail network. 
 

I’ve also had a look on maps and it seems there is space for quad-tracking of the northern line out of Connolly, can someone clarify this..?
 

No one has mentioned it so far, but I feel someone has to… DART Underground (or DART+ Tunnel as the Review calls it…) would also potentially help capacity as the tunnels I believe are planned to dive, right where the quadruple track ends, after Parkwest, with the two inner slow lines being diverted underground. This would mean that all commuter services would be diverted to a new Underground station at Heuston with the potential to carry on through to another new Underground station at Connolly. Surely this would be helpful for eating capacity here and potentially remove the need for 4 tracking the rest of the way to Heuston… This could also mean that the potential Ballyfermot/Kylemore station could be an underground one, not causing any interference with mainline services. I’d love to dig deeper (pun very much intended) into the topic of DART Underground and the potential of Underground railways in Dublin and the rest of the country, but this post is long enough as it is so I’ll hold off for the moment…
 

Of course realistically, this is all veeery hypothetical but I do really hope that the government bite the bullet and listen to the Rail Review’s recommendations, they really do just make a lot of sense

[DoctorPan]

51 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Speaking from a non-engineering and non-railway-insider angle, is there any way of futuro proofing to an extent, without increasing costs too much?

For example, leaving space between the platforms for four tracks instead of two? The two tracks would obviously need to run far enough apart to service both platforms and leave space in the centre for future tracks. This probably applies more to new builds. Surely, in this case, the only additional cost is more landscaping and a longer bridge?

Or building one of the two platforms as an Island platform, with hoarding to hide that fact? Therefore allowing two more tracks be laid the other side of the Island platform in the future? This probably applies more to adding stations to current trackwork.

Again, speaking from an outsider perspective.

Without giving the game away too much, the issue is the post DART + world in that the line arrangement is changing from Fast Slow Slow Fast to Slow Slow Fast Fast. It's hard to future proof the location at Kylemore because of the plans of DART South West and if you aren't careful you can leave a site unable to be upgraded in the future without having to close a brand new asset or render a project unfeasible. Generally there's passive future provision in projects, most if not all new bridges built on the network are done to allow double tracking and electrification, a good example is the new bridges at Kilkenny and Athy, they allow for the future doubling of the Waterford line in that area. Lot of the time the NTA requirements for projects is no project can negatively impact another future plan or wish. 

 

21 minutes ago, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

I was looking at this the other day actually, in terms of the All Island Rail Review, and the plans there for a Maynooth to Lucan Rail link seem like a very viable option for bringing certain Sligo express and other trains off of what will become a very congested route with DART+ West. 
 

Heuston Station is the best option for routing extra traffic, I don’t see much sense in rerouting all ex-MGWR services to Connolly, especially with the fact that the Maynooth line can only become more congested and beyond Liffey Junction, the viaducted line leaves no scope at all for capacity upgrades. 
 

Between Parkwest and Heuston however, there is definitely space for quad-tracking, even trebling at the very least, and with all of the car park space and old goods sidings out the side of Heuston, the potential to stick a few extra platforms on the side of the station to cope for extra traffic is very much there. Allowing Sligo line services to come off the Maynooth line and into Heuston would not only be a capacity no brainier - there being (hopefully in the future) 4 tracks all the way between Hazelhatch (maybe eventually Kildare) and Heuston - but would also help to further centralise our rail network. 
 

I’ve also had a look on maps and it seems there is space for quad-tracking of the northern line out of Connolly, can someone clarify this..?
 

No one has mentioned it so far, but I feel someone has to… DART Underground (or DART+ Tunnel as the Review calls it…) would also potentially help capacity as the tunnels I believe are planned to dive, right where the quadruple track ends, after Parkwest, with the two inner slow lines being diverted underground. This would mean that all commuter services would be diverted to a new Underground station at Heuston with the potential to carry on through to another new Underground station at Connolly. Surely this would be helpful for eating capacity here and potentially remove the need for 4 tracking the rest of the way to Heuston… This could also mean that the potential Ballyfermot/Kylemore station could be an underground one, not causing any interference with mainline services. I’d love to dig deeper (pun very much intended) into the topic of DART Underground and the potential of Underground railways in Dublin and the rest of the country, but this post is long enough as it is so I’ll hold off for the moment…
 

Of course realistically, this is all veeery hypothetical but I do really hope that the government bite the bullet and listen to the Rail Review’s recommendations, they really do just make a lot of sense

 ParkWest to Heuston is due to be quadtracked under DART SW plans. There's current a tender for a study to review the northern corridor for quad tracking, I do remember it was at one early stage part of the DART Coastal North scope before being taken away.  Dart Underground plans are still currently up in the air pending the completation of the rest of the DART + project. There's loads of moving parts and trying to intergrate everything smoothly and get your construction staging done correctly is the major part and part that you can't muck up.

[irishrailways52]

On 29/11/2023 at 2:49 AM, Darrman said:

Regarding the MGWR main line, putting a big bike track on top of it is a ridiculous notion, and that's exactly what happened. Rip it up - not that it will be. I passed through Athlone a few months ago; the railway (if you can call it that) is in a sorry state. Does anyone have any idea how well-used the "greenway" is? I took a photo looking towards Dublin. From memory the line had been lifted beyond the last level crossing in the Galway direction, but I didn't take a photo of that side. It would be a lot of work to reinstate Mullingar-Athlone. You'd have to reopen Athlone Midland, relay the entire line, bulldoze the bike track or fence off the cyclists. If the cyclists can stay, what do you do for passing loops? Divert them around Moate? Cyclists on a platform would only lead to trouble. If doubling the line, the cyclists have to go. I've no idea of the state of Mullingar: is the Galway side of the station still connected?

was passing through Athlone midland recently. seems like they are doing work to the roof on the engine shed. unfortunately the railway has been disconnected from the line. i cycled the greenway about a year ago. a few people use it but more would use a rail system. if you kept a greenway beside the railway people probably would not use the greenway anymore

On 29/11/2023 at 12:27 PM, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

I’ve also had a look on maps and it seems there is space for quad-tracking of the northern line out of Connolly, can someone clarify this..?

there is enough land though to quad track you would have to get rid of a lot of the vegetation which residents probably would not like

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, irishrailways52 said:

was passing through Athlone midland recently. seems like they are doing work to the roof on the engine shed. unfortunately the railway has been disconnected from the line. i cycled the greenway about a year ago. a few people use it but more would use a rail system. if you kept a greenway beside the railway people probably would not use the greenway anymore

there is enough land though to quad track you would have to get rid of a lot of the vegetation which residents probably would not like

To Belfast would probably be possible, with some bottlenecks like the Malahide viaduct. AFAIK there's been no mention of quad tracking to Drogheda for Dart +, which makes me seriously wonder how Intercity services are going to manage.

Greenway is a waste of time IMO, and this is someone who's cycled it regularly. Very few trek more than a few miles.

Edited December 1, 2023 by GSR 800

[226 Abhann na Suire]

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/waterford/news/waterford-passengers-to-start-using-north-quays-train-station-in-2026/a1100926042.html
 
New Station at Waterford looking on track for a 2026 opening… not too shabby all things considered…

 

https://m.independent.ie/regionals/wexford/news/reopening-of-waterford-to-rosslare-railway-line-boosted-by-planned-barrow-bridge-works/a1437133228.html

And by the looks of it with a bit of luck, the Rosslare Line won’t be too far behind..! According to the article, insurance money could apparently see the Barrow Bridge reopened AND automated to the NTCC - seems track relaying and new platforms at Wellingtonbridge, Campile and Bridgetown then are all that stands in the way after that! 

Edited February 1 by 226 Abhann na Suire

[irishrailways52]

I assume that this will be the end of semaphore singling in Waterford. is the elevated signal box in any danger.

[226 Abhann na Suire]

 

On 2/2/2024 at 9:14 PM, irishrailways52 said:

I assume that this will be the end of semaphore singling in Waterford. is the elevated signal box in any danger.

Not at all, I’m very sure it’s listed so it’ll be protected. It’s already been out of use for the past over-half a decade though - with CTC controlling the Dublin line, it’s Waterford West Cabin that handles the Limerick Jnct line if I’m correct so the new station doesn’t necessarily mean the end of semaphores for Waterford as I haven’t heard of a plan to CTC-ify the Limerick Jnct branch. I guess that just depends then on whether Sallypark is integrated, does anyone know if it is, or is it Waterford West-managed still?