"Voiding the Warranty" - Mol's experiments in 21mm gauge

[Northroader]

At one time I used the loft before it got a proper work over.  Problem is all the roof supports need air circulating round to avoid rot, so you have an opening round the eaves, and the loft reflects what’s happening outside. It ended up with just limited seasons where it was comfortable to work, in spring and autumn. Summer it was far too hot up there, likewise winter too cold. There was also the way soldered track joints could tear apart over a year due to the expansion. At last I got a proper conversion done, and it was a good room, liveable in. But the other trouble is the inward slope of the roof doesn’t allow much headroom over the layout unless you bring it closer to the middle. I ended up with a lot of microlayouts.

[Mol_PMB]

4 hours ago, Northroader said:

At one time I used the loft before it got a proper work over.  Problem is all the roof supports need air circulating round to avoid rot, so you have an opening round the eaves, and the loft reflects what’s happening outside. It ended up with just limited seasons where it was comfortable to work, in spring and autumn. Summer it was far too hot up there, likewise winter too cold. There was also the way soldered track joints could tear apart over a year due to the expansion. At last I got a proper conversion done, and it was a good room, liveable in. But the other trouble is the inward slope of the roof doesn’t allow much headroom over the layout unless you bring it closer to the middle. I ended up with a lot of microlayouts.

Many thanks - it's good to hear about your experiences as these were some of my concerns about the use of the loft space.

I do have one friend who has built a large and complex model railway in his loft, but he put a lot of work into insulating and fitting it out, including a velux window for summer ventilation. It's set fairly low down, ideal to operate and view from a seated position, which partly overcomes the headroom issue, and I would probably do the same. It's a lot of work before even starting to build the model railway! But it doesn't stop me planning...

 

[David Holman]

Planning is half the fun and I've scratched many itches that way, with 99% never making it off paper.

 I think you have to balance the time, effort as especially cost, against how much value you place on having such space. Our roof is too low pitched to be any use, but did eventually convert the integral garage into my workshop, by fitting double glazed, hinged doors, and adding a radiator from the central heating system, plus an access door from the porch inside the house.

 It has given me 16' of layout space down one side and work bench/storage on the other one and a half sides, using kitchen base units/worktops. The layout space gives room for two, one above the other and though they are only terminus-fiddle yard, they provide enough operation interest when the mood takes me. That said, I mainly build things and exhibit at shows, so though a continuous run would be nice, I doubt I would use it much.

[Mol_PMB]

I have been doing a bit of modelling as well as planning! The custom transfers I designed at the weekend have now arrived, so I've been lettering some wagons and a container:

The petunia-roofed Bell container and its roof lettering are based on the BREL Derby livery drawing for these. I've also printed another set of serial numbers so I can do a second one, once I've ordered it from Arran.

The grain hopper wagon lettering is a bit different to that supplied in the kit, but based on a photo.

The cattle wagon roof still isn't stuck down... because I've converted it to a fitted wagon I needed a different number and lettering from that supplied.

My transfer sheet will also do my NIR ex-GNR brake van, but I haven't applied those yet.

 

All of these now need weathering.

 

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I have been doing a bit of modelling as well as planning! The custom transfers I designed at the weekend have now arrived, so I've been lettering some wagons and a container:

The petunia-roofed Bell container and its roof lettering are based on the BREL Derby livery drawing for these. I've also printed another set of serial numbers so I can do a second one, once I've ordered it from Arran.

The grain hopper wagon lettering is a bit different to that supplied in the kit, but based on a photo.

The cattle wagon roof still isn't stuck down... because I've converted it to a fitted wagon I needed a different number and lettering from that supplied.

My transfer sheet will also do my NIR ex-GNR brake van, but I haven't applied those yet.

 

All of these now need weathering.

 

Interesting re the Bell containers.

While available models all (I think?) have white roofs, these appeared later on. Originally, they were mostly the dark blue. I don’t remember seeing a “petunia” roof myself, but quite possible.

[Mol_PMB]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting re the Bell containers.

While available models all (I think?) have white roofs, these appeared later on. Originally, they were mostly the dark blue. I don’t remember seeing a “petunia” roof myself, but quite possible.

The ones built in Derby had a base colour of petunia, with a blue panel each side. I'm glad you have raised the issue though because I had another look at the drawings and I realise there are a couple more white markings I need to put on the roof:

This 1983 photo from John Law on Flickr shows a variety of roof colours:

• 4 x 40' with blue roof
• 1 x 40' with white roof
• 4 x 20' with petunia roof
• 1 x 20' with blue roof (just visible in foreground)
• 1 x 20' with white roof, but this is one of the ones with no blue at all, just petunia on the sides and ends, like the second one in this 1986 photo by Adrian Nicholls on Flickr:

I agree that later on, white rooves predominated:

[jhb171achill]

10 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The ones built in Derby had a base colour of petunia, with a blue panel each side. I'm glad you have raised the issue though because I had another look at the drawings and I realise there are a couple more white markings I need to put on the roof:

This 1983 photo from John Law on Flickr shows a variety of roof colours:

• 4 x 40' with blue roof
• 1 x 40' with white roof
• 4 x 20' with petunia roof
• 1 x 20' with blue roof (just visible in foreground)
• 1 x 20' with white roof, but this is one of the ones with no blue at all, just petunia on the sides and ends, like the second one in this 1986 photo by Adrian Nicholls on Flickr:

I agree that later on, white rooves predominated:

Yes. All or almost all navy blue at first. Petunia infiltrates quite soon, but remains minority.

White much later, but never replaced the other colours, thus an all-white-roofed train as in unlikely though not impossible.

[spudfan]

Clicked on this. Thought it might be in relation to your first date. Ooops!

[Mol_PMB]

This trio from @Mayner's kits are now very nearly complete, with the main weathering done based on prototype photos.

They may get a dusting of running dirt from the airbrush when the weather's a bit warmer, and I still need to do the glazing in the brake van.

It's funny how the phone camera 'sees' colours and contrasts a bit differently from the naked eye, and the colours also look different today from yesterday's sunlit photo.

When the IRM H vans turn up, they'll boost this train significantly. But I have plans to modify all of them to some extent. I'm trying to get my other wagon projects finished before the end of January!

Plans for the H vans include re-spacing the buffers on all of them, and then as follows:

1. Add extended buffers to represent a former green van, but in brown livery as 18848
2. Replace the underframe with a modified Parkside one, unfitted and with conventional solebars, in brown livery as 17194
3. Add strips across the roof, in brown livery as 18731
4. Modifed/replaced sides and extended buffers as H palvan, in grey livery as 18828
5. Modify the brakes to represent an unfitted 4-shoe brake setup, in grey livery as 17568
6. The last one can stay as bought apart from the buffers, maybe renumbered as 18675
7. Seven? Where did the other one come from? Well the underframe from 2 will be used as the basis of a 26000 series palvan using a Parkside body. It won't need the handbrake wheels which will be robbed to complete my fitted cattle wagon.

That'll keep me busy in February, and give me 7 vans, all different, to add to the CIE cattle, LMA, GSR grain and GNR cement vans I have already.

[Mol_PMB]

@jhb171achill jokes about the overly posh 'zebra' paint job on the RPSI's GNR brake van 'Ivan'. Well every time I look at my model of his sister 'Ivanka', I think I've finished, take a photo, and then realise that there are still a load of things I need to deal with. It's a slow burn this project, but I'm nearly there. 'Ivanka' is extremely disreputable compared to her brother, but in fine form to tail a Hunslet-hauled works train. She is based on this photo by Jonathan Allen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49497154092

I am still hoping for some UTA spoil wagon kits to go with this van, the Hunslet and a couple of former Courtaulds opens.

 

Meanwhile, we have the beginnings of a liner train. Two of @leslie10646's 20' flat wagons of the 27101 series, and I've managed to get a few IRM bogie flats secondhand. The bogie flats will be modified to suit my needs in due course. I also have 3 brass kits of the 25436 series 20' flats in the works at present.

The container on the left is also one of Leslie's whereas the other orange one (not yet lettered) is a plain C-Rail one. All the containers need some / more weathering.

CIE did have some 'plain vanilla' 20' boxes without side doors or other fancy features - there's one here in my tatty old print at Ennis, stacked on top of something else. Possibly another one on the ground to its right. But as yet I haven't confirmed their number series or found a better photo than this:

 

[Mol_PMB]

A little light relief for a Sunday morning - another container.

This is based on a C=Rail unpainted 20' ribbed box, which I have altered to represent a CIE bulk grain container.

With a coat of orange paint and the CIE 'BULK FREIGHT' lettering on the side it should provide a bit of variety in the liner train.

[Horsetan]

On 11/1/2025 at 7:02 PM, Mol_PMB said:

.... 'Ivanka' is extremely disreputable...

I'm sure there'll be something along to, er, Trump that.

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I'm sure there'll be something along to, er, Trump that.

I'm glad someone picked up on that reference!

[Horsetan]

12 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm glad someone picked up on that reference!

Believe me, it was going that way.

[Mol_PMB]

Whilst I still consider layout and track options, I've bought and installed a pair of cabinets for my Irish models.

They're not the expensive sort, but they'll do! It took a bit of care to get them perfectly aligned in all planes so that the glass panes can be slid through one to reach the other, but I have managed that despite the walls not being quite flat.

They are a very snug fit in the available space!

Enough space for 70 traditional wagons! But they'll soon fill up with longer things, and aren't efficient for displaying coaches as each shelf is 450mm long.

[Mol_PMB]

As I get older I find my memory isn't as good as it once was.

When I went out to the shed to find the tools for mounting the display cabinets, I reminded myself that I'd got this, that's been screwed to the wall out there for 15 years or more and I'd completely forgotten about it!

Well that's the identity sorted for a 121 class model! 131 was the first 121 class I travelled behind (or perhaps in front of - it was on the Limerick-Junction shuttle).

I should have used this to check the artwork for my custom transfers - I didn't get the ends of the 3 quite right. I'll have to do the 3s again again...

[Mol_PMB]

This evening I'm pottering in CorelDraw doing artwork for some early containers. More to do yet, I'm planning to do a range of CIE, B+I, BELL, Irish Ferryways.

These are intended for my own use but if anyone else might be interested in some of these please let me know.

I get them printed by Precision Decals using an ALPS printer on clear backing. A little more care is need in applying them compared to the Railtec transfers, but they can provide a very good result.

[Mol_PMB]

Having mostly been working in plastic recently, I've gone back to metal for my next 3 wagons. These are 25436 series container flats from an etch produced by John a few years back, which he kindly arranged to have another copy etched for me. The deal didn't include castings or instructions and I'm sure I'm not building them quite as intended! But the first one is coming together quite nicely now and hopefully I'll get the other two caught up with it tomorrow. I've been trying some options of axleboxes and springs: I've got a nice solution for the roller bearing variant, and I think I can adapt the spare plain bearing axleboxes left over from my GNR brake van kit. I plan to build two with roller bearings and one with plain bearings.

Now that I've acquired some IRM 42' bogie flats, I'm not quite so desparate for ISO container carrying wagons, so I might load one of these with a pre-ISO container, chained down and with the stakes deployed. The other two will probably be equipped to carry ISO containers or 20' swapbodies.

I must go digging through the older parts of the forum and see if @Mayner has any other interesting etched kits in the portfolio that might still be available on a similar basis? 

[Mayner]

On 18/1/2025 at 3:21 PM, Mol_PMB said:

I must go digging through the older parts of the forum and see if @Mayner has any other interesting etched kits in the portfolio that might still be available on a similar basis? 

 

Trialed an etched 22'6" flat in 2012, similar fold up assembly to 20' flat.                                                                  

 

Edited January 20 by Mayner

[Mol_PMB]

4 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

Trialed an etched 22'6" flat in 2012, similar fold up assembly to 20' flat.                                                                  

 

That looks appealing, and one of the wagons that's definitely on my wants list. How many come on an etch?

Cheers,

Paul

[Horsetan]

33 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

That looks appealing, and one of the wagons that's definitely on my wants list. How many come on an etch?

If there's any left over, I might be interested in one or two if that makes things easier....

[Mayner]

One wagon per fret due to the orientation of the sheet. The photo engraver charges a flat rate per sheet and a min charge of £9 for UK shipping.

There is also a version with Bill Bedford style springing which did not reach the prototype/test etch stage http://www.clag.org.uk/bb-w-irons.html .

I will check pricing next week as its over 10 years since I prepared the initial test etch.

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

....There is also a version with Bill Bedford style springing which did not reach the prototype/test etch stage http://www.clag.org.uk/bb-w-irons.html ....

It occurs to me that it could still be sprung using the Dave Bradwell spring carriers.

[Mol_PMB]

5 hours ago, Mayner said:

One wagon per fret due to the orientation of the sheet. The photo engraver charges a flat rate per sheet and a min charge of £9 for UK shipping.

There is also a version with Bill Bedford style springing which did not reach the prototype/test etch stage http://www.clag.org.uk/bb-w-irons.html .

I will check pricing next week as its over 10 years since I prepared the initial test etch.

Many thanks John, that looks good. No rush, I've got plenty of projects on the go already, but I am definitely interested in some of these. 

[Mol_PMB]

On the subject of etch artwork, I've made a start on something Irish. Very much work in progress but there's probably enough here for someone to guess what it's going to be.

It seems I use a different colour convention to John. On mine, black is full thickness, red is etch from the front, cyan is etch from the back, and white is etched right through. I haven't put tabs on yet.

Hopefully something less likely to be produced by IRM as none of them exist any more. Initially for my own use but if it works out well I'll see if anyone else is interested.

It's quite possible I'm making some bits rather fiddly for 4mm scale, as I'm more used to designing in 7mm scale. I'll find out in the test build.

One thing I have learnt already is that the locos weren't all the same, so I'm trying to cater for some options.

Close-up of part of it:

Next I need to do the cab and the footplate, which should be relatively simple compared to what I've done so far. Then I must think more seriously about the chassis, compensation and gearing.

[Mol_PMB]

I've now also completed the footplate artwork, including bufferbeams and cosmetic frames. I've identified some suitable castings for the axleboxes and hornguides too. Next thing to do is to draw up the cab assembly.

I'm still mulling over how to arrange the chassis. I think it needs some form of compensation, and probably a long row of gears and idlers to transmit the drive to all axles.

There's no shortage of space in the bonnet and the motor could be positioned to drive onto any of the wheelsets, or indeed one of the intermediate gears.

I expect the chassis will be made of thicker material so it won't be on this etch. That may also facilitate different gauge options. It may not be etched at all.

Any thoughts?

 

 

[Horsetan]

34 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I've now also completed the footplate artwork, including bufferbeams and cosmetic frames. I've identified some suitable castings for the axleboxes and hornguides too. Next thing to do is to draw up the cab assembly.

I'm still mulling over how to arrange the chassis. I think it needs some form of compensation, and probably a long row of gears and idlers to transmit the drive to all axles.

There's no shortage of space in the bonnet and the motor could be positioned to drive onto any of the wheelsets, or indeed one of the intermediate gears.

I expect the chassis will be made of thicker material so it won't be on this etch. That may also facilitate different gauge options. It may not be etched at all.

Any thoughts?

 

 

I've always thought the Maybach E a somewhat unbalanced design, but it did get into preservation, and I wouldn't say no to having a go at an etched one. How many etches are you planning to produce, and what would the cost be to an interested customer like me?

For compensation/springs, the current hornguide standard is the High Level  one, so your chassis etch should have provision to cut out a 5mm wide slot so that the HL guide will slide in and be held in place accurately for soldering. That just leaves me to work out the fulcrum points for CSB springs.

Effectively the uncoupled chassis could be treated similar to a diesel bogie - you can decide whether to drive only 4 or all 6 wheels, but this should ideally be done as a separate gearbox or series of boxes, so that it doesn't interfere with the action of compensation or springs.

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I've always thought the Maybach E a somewhat unbalanced design, but it did get into preservation, and I wouldn't say no to having a go at an etched one. How many etches are you planning to produce, and what would the cost be to an interested customer like me?

For compensation/springs, the current hornguide standard is the High Level  one, so your chassis etch should have provision to cut out a 5mm wide slot so that the HL guide will slide in and be held in place accurately for soldering. That just leaves me to work out the fulcrum points for CSB springs.

Effectively the uncoupled chassis could be treated similar to a diesel bogie - you can decide whether to drive only 4 or all 6 wheels, but this should ideally be done as a separate gearbox or series of boxes, so that it doesn't interfere with the action of compensation or springs.

Many thanks for your thoughts and interest.

At present I'm doing the E401, none of which survived. E401s were more numerous and have more choice of liveries; they were delivered in silver, but withdrawn in the late 1970s whereas some of the E421s survived into the early 1980s. I could probably develop an E421 afterwards if this works out well. There were significant differences between the classes in major dimensions and styling, though the wheelbase was the same so potentially a common chassis could be used. The E421s were better balanced.

I think if IRM do an E class it's much more likely to be an E421, in fact I know they've had a good look round one of the E421s at Downpatrick.

It's too early to think about pricing at present, or how many I might have made. I have my custom etches done by 4Dmodelshop, who provide excellent quality service and a quick turnround, and quantities as small as 1, but it costs more per etch than the firms which do mass production. I think my approach will be to make one etch to start with and build it myself, then I can do any debugging necessary for a small production run, and I'll also have a completed model for people to judge whether they would be interested.

 

I haven't got my head round CSB, but thanks for the info on the hornguide standard and what slots I would need to provide. That will be very helpful when I get to doing the chassis artwork.

I agree that the challenge of driving the wheelsets is how to do it without upsetting the compensation or springing.

In the last 20+ years I have done most of my modelling in 7mm scale so I'm not familiar with the parts and methods typically used in 4mm scale. I've had a good look through the High Level Kits website and I'm more confused than it was before - it doesn't even say what gear module they use which is a fundamental dimension needed to design a gear train using their parts. All the examples given are steam locos with rods, where the gearbox only needs to drive one axle.

If you understand CSB it sounds like you're way ahead of me on this!

Could you help me with a rough sketch of how you would set it out and which components you might use? The wheelbase is 20+32mm, wheel diameter 12mm or 12.6mm.

I don't think space in the bonnet is a limitation. My intention is that the functional chassis will be inside-framed, with the outside frames just cosmetic.

Cheers,

Mol

[Horsetan]

16 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

...I haven't got my head round CSB, but thanks for the info on the hornguide standard and what slots I would need to provide. That will be very helpful when I get to doing the chassis artwork.

I agree that the challenge of driving the wheelsets is how to do it without upsetting the compensation or springing.

In the last 20+ years I have done most of my modelling in 7mm scale so I'm not familiar with the parts and methods typically used in 4mm scale. I've had a good look through the High Level Kits website and I'm more confused than it was before - it doesn't even say what gear module they use which is a fundamental dimension needed to design a gear train using their parts. All the examples given are steam locos with rods, where the gearbox only needs to drive one axle.

If you understand CSB it sounds like you're way ahead of me on this!

Could you help me with a rough sketch of how you would set it out and which components you might use? The wheelbase is 20+32mm, wheel diameter 12mm or 12.6mm.

I don't think space in the bonnet is a limitation. My intention is that the functional chassis will be inside-framed, with the outside frames just cosmetic.

High Level gears are not a particularly fine pitch; they are likely to be around MOD 0.5 to make them easier to mesh. They are available individually as spares, so you could buy a set and experiment with the permutations.

Ultrascale also have Apple-based gear calculators that help you set centre distances, etc.

There are CSB calculation spreadsheets available for download  - to get the best out of them, you need to have some idea of how much your model will weigh, and where you think the overall centre of balance will be. The one I have linked to has tabs for 4, 6, 8 or 10-coupled chassis.

[Mol_PMB]

I've been doing some more work on the etch artwork including the cab, which is progressing nicely. I'm trying to make best use of fold-up subassemblies rather than a myriad of separate parts, whilst avoiding awkward fit problems.

Does anyone here have any photos of E class cab interior? E401 preferred but I appreciate that's less likely, E421 pics from the preserved examples would be better than nothing. Although the windows are fairly small I'd like to make some attempt at representing the control desk.

Best I have for cab interior views so far are these:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284989/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509328774/

 

Also, if anyone's got a particular loco or period they would be interested in modelling, please let me know. There were lots of minor variations between the locos and it would be impractical to provide for them all, but I can do some.

 

Cheers,

Mol

[Galteemore]

Fab work. Here’s one for starters - Eire Trains by Ciaran Cooney 

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Fab work. Here’s one for starters - Eire Trains by Ciaran Cooney 

Wonderful - many thanks! There are certainly some common features between that and what I can see on the E401 photos.

[Mol_PMB]

I'm hoping that I can get the body etch artwork finished within the next week or so, and then maybe in 2 weeks time I can show the prototype body being built. I'll do a separate thread for that.

The chassis is still a challenge. I'm leaving as much space as possible to fit it in. I'll work something out eventually. It makes sense to do the chassis on a separate etch as it will need a thicker material and there will be variants needed for different track gauges.

It would be interesting to know, among any forum members who would contemplate an etched E401 kit (this may well be a very small audience!) would you prefer rigid, compensated, sprung, CSB? And what gauge are you working in?

Personally I'm working in 21mm gauge and most of my experience is with compensation rather than springing, but I'm open to new ideas especially if people can provide advice.

And if you might possibly be interested in one of these, what period do you model? There were a lot of detail variations between the late 50s silver and the late 70s black eras, I've worked out most of these but which should I try and provide for?

Cheers,

Mol

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

20 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

.....It would be interesting to know, among any forum members who would contemplate an etched E401 kit (this may well be a very small audience!) would you prefer rigid, compensated, sprung, CSB? And what gauge are you working in?

Personally I'm working in 21mm gauge and most of my experience is with compensation rather than springing, but I'm open to new ideas especially if people can provide advice...

 

If the etch can be built as a "421", I'm in for a 21mm gauge version. Subject to what I wrote about providing half-etch lines for the HL hornguides, I can work out my own fulcrum points for the CSB spring beams.

I'm only really interested in trying to build preserved stuff, because the option exists to actually go and see it.

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, the existing etch can’t be built as a E421 - there are many very significant differences between the two classes. The E421s are 2 feet longer for a start! 
Cabs and bonnets are completely different in both styles and dimensions. 
The chassis could be common between both classes. 

I’m not ruling out doing an E421 as a follow-up, depending on how the E401 turns out. But I suspect IRM may have an E421 somewhere in their future plans which is partly what has steered me towards the E401. 

Please not that this is absolutely not a commercial venture but I would be happy to support interested fellow modellers. 

I’d still welcome some advice on the chassis though! How would you arrange the gearing? 
 

Cheers,

Mol