Branch line possibilities in the Black’n’tan era

[jhb171achill]

Two acquaintances of mine (neither on here to my knowledge) are planning / slowly putting together smallish layouts based on fictitious branches on the CIE system in the 1960-75 period.

Both had asked me what’s likely to have been on it, knowing that on a British equivalent a Beeching survivor would probably have a staple diet of single-car or 2-coach railcars (DMUs over there), with the terminus is done cases being a single set of points.

But railcars (AEC sets) in Ireland were the stuff of main lines and Dublin suburban, not branch lines, the few of which survived having remained entirely loco-hauled until the early 2000s.

While Beeching was learning his spellings, rural closures were well under way here, and between 1959 and 1963, all but a few of our branches breathed their last, often (Foynes, Kenmare etc) with six wheel coaches and steam engines which actually bore-dated the line itself.

But, what if there were still trains in the 1960s or early 70s to Killeshsndra? 

Or Mountmellick, Ballinrobe, Shillelagh, Banagher, Valentia, Clonakilty, Kinsale, Ballaghaderren or Achill?

”Ah”, I hear you say, “just model it on Loughrea”.

Well, yes and no.

The fact that Loughrea retained cattle and mixed trains into the 1970s doesn’t mean other lines would have done. Cattle volumes across CIE in 1968 were but a tenth of the equivalent a decade earlier; when even that was only half what the late 1930s would have produced.

Also, there were only 7 of the G611 class, and at least two of these spent much of their time at Inchicore, despite being only a few years old. Even with 20 functioning branches, it’s hard to see Gs going anywhere else.

Even at Loughrea, as I’ve found through recent research, more often than not a C or a B141 was allocated, even a B181 or A class, before and after re-engining.

And therein lies the answer. 

An Irish 1960s branch will have an almost staple diet of 141s and Cs. If there’s a functioning turntable still, a 121 could appear.

Wagons would obviously be standard types, mostly standard CIE “H” and plans, and ex-GNR vans too; with a mix of Bullied corrugated opens and older timber-buried ones, the latter of either GSR, CIE or GNR origin.

Coaches - a set of one or two laminates, Park Royals or Bredins.

Cravens would be rare and usually limited to visiting specials or excursions.

So, at entry level, a layout like that can be convincingly put together with a Murphy 142, a pair of IRM Park Royals, a SSM or other tin van*, half a dozen IRM Bullieds (no, I’m not on commission) several Provincial timber-bodied vans, a Provincial or SSM guards van, and maybe a dozen GNR or CIE goods vans of Provincial or IRM origin.

(The “Provincial IRM”?….!!!!)

(* Any post-steam or pre-ICR middle passenger train MUST have a guards van & generator vehicle. Sticking two Cravens behind a loco and nothing else is like operating a passenger train without a locomotive! Pity there isn’t a credible RTR Genny van, but it’s needed!)….

I have a long term interest in the Achill line. Had that survived, you’d have been looking at two passenger trains  a day, and a goods…. and 141s.

[Mol_PMB]

Fenit was a favourite of mine that I part-built a model of 30-odd years ago. It had a variety of freight traffic, retained an interesting track layout with turntable, and quite a mix of motive power turned up there. Also there were enough enthusiasts' specials and locally-advertised excursions (both steam and diesel-hauled) to provide some passenger interest, and it wouldn't require too much imagination to consider that the regular passenger service had continued.

In many ways, the same could be said of Youghal, which had a great deal of excursion traffic as well as the branch freights.

 

[Mol_PMB]

The second half of this film shows some excellent actvity on the Youghal branch in the 1970s.

 

[BSGSV]

The C class was bought for branch use, and closures reduced the need for them, so a lot were out of use by the end of the 60's. A branch surviving would probably have had one in preference to a 141, which would have been out on main line work. A railcar set was used on Thurles - Clonmel. 60's carriages GSW or GSR or early CIE built, with 70's early-CIE. Alas, most of these are not RTR - yet!

However, what RTR is available would not be much hardship while you wait. God bless all the manufacturers, who continue to amaze with the gaps they are filling.

Edited Saturday at 14:04 by BSGSV

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, BSGSV said:

The C class was bought for branch use, and closures reduced the need for them, so a lot were out of use by the end of the 60's. A branch surviving would probably have had one in preference to a 141, which would have been out on main line work. A railcar set was used on Thurles - Clonmel. 60's carriages GSW or GSR or early CIE built, with 70's early-CIE. Alas, most of these are not RTR - yet!

I think a lot depends on the date being considered within the stated 1960-75 period (probably more like 1963-75 for the Black'n'tan to be widespread).

In the mid 1960s the A and C class locos (which dominated numerically) still had their unreliable Crossley engines and were mostly to be seen on freight and secondary routes, with the main line expresses entrusted to the baby GMs. The Crossley situation was so bad that in June 1963, only 12 of the 34 C class were in traffic! With the closure of branch lines the underpowered and unreliable C class became pretty irrelevant and many were relegated to engineers' trains and lifting train duties on the branch lines they had previously served. In our imaginary scenario where a branch remained open, a C class would be a valid option pre-1970, but might have been used as a last resort if nothing better was available. For shunting and pilot duties it seems the E class were considered more useful than the C class.

But by the end of 1970 the majority of the A class had been re-engined and the resulting Ar class was proving itself to be reliable and more powerful than the baby GMs. At this time there was a reshuffle of power with the Ar class taking on more passenger work and releasing the baby GMs for other duties. So if the branch line model were to be set in the 1970-1975 era then I think a 141 would be the loco of choice.

There was also a need to replace the AEC railcars which were at the end of their useful life as powered units, mostly on Dublin suburban services. With electrification planned (even in the era under consideration) but forever being postponed, re-engining the C class for suburban duties was an adequate stopgap and occurred in 1971/72. I don't think suburban duties needed all 34 of them though. 

[jhb171achill]

Exactly.

An excellent example. Fenit, Castleisland and Youghal all had heavy, albeit only occasional, excursion traffic.

Had West Cork survived, probably the same to Clonakilty. 
 

141 class heaven…..

[Mol_PMB]

It may also be worth looking at the branch termini which did survive to the present day and what they were like in the early 1970s. 
Ballina is the obvious example with varied traffic.

Cobh was more passenger-focused but still interesting. 

To be honest, for modellers looking from a GB perspective even some of Ireland’s main line termini were/are more within the scope of a BLT layout. Sligo, Westport, Tralee, Galway, Kilkenny and Killarney only had one or two platforms and a trackplan that could be compressed into a plausible size for a 4mm scale layout. The trains were longer than might be expected at a BLT, but they often didn’t fit the stations! 

I think that the passenger side of Galway would make a very nice layout, one main platform and the bay for the TPO, turntable and stabling point behind and the stub of the Clifden line. 

[airfixfan]

Loughrea?

[Mayner]

Loughrea was an exception on CIE surviving as a classical rural feeder branch until closure in 1975, Ballina was more of a secondary mail line terminal than a feeder branch for much of the Black & Tan era with through freight services from Dublin and the terminus of passenger trains to and from Limerick between 63 and the closure of passenger services over Limerick-Claremorris line. Branch line passenger services were re-instated in the early 70s initially as the Claremorris Pilot hauling a daily 'through' Ballina coach off main line trains before the re-introduction of 3 times daily feeder service that connected with main line trains at Claremorris.

Personally I think Irish secondary main line services such as from Dublin to Tralee, Westport, Sligo and Rosslare had more in common with the West Highland, Kyle and Further North lines in Scotland during the loco hauled era approx. three (relatively short) passenger trains and a goods/mail daily from Glasgow to Fort William and even a mixed rather than a goods to Mallaig. Similar service North and West from Inverness with Further North passenger trains dividing at Georgemas Junction into portions for Thurso and Wick.

Modelling an branch line terminus and the relatively short trains (5-6coaches + loco-s) that ran on the Sligo & South Eastern is going to take up a lot of space in OO, one of my most successful layouts was in N gauge an 11'X11' room the terminus station based on Foynes could comfortably accommodate 5 coaches & a pair of 121 diesels was on a 5' baseboard with a 2'6' scenic section that also incorporated a loco depot and head shunt. The same layout would require a space of 15' in OO.

The station layout was basically single platform station inspired by Foynes with its overall roof, runround loop with turntable release  with 3 long sidings in the goods yard freight area. Operationally there were two through morning & evening daily passenger trains from Dublin hauled by pairs of 121 diesels,  a141 hauled  branch line set Coach & Van provided a connection in and out of the midday mainline trains and night mails. a 001 hauled an overnight goods or Liner train, plus odd workings with beet specials and oil trains. At the time no Irish rtr was available locos had scratchbuilt plasticard/modified rtr bodies on American diesel chassis, goods and passenger stock was repainted British outline rtr.

Going back to JHBs point on passenger train consists on the Loughrea and Ballina branches a Brake Standard coach (initially Comp-later Standard Class) with storage heaters were allocated to both branch services, so a Heating Van was not required on these services while the Brake Standard was operational, additionally 1442 a Main Line Park Royal was fitted with Storage Heaters and allocated to Ballina branch services.

Ballina was allocated 1904 a 1951-3 Brake Standard and Loughrea 1910 a 1959 Laminate Brake Standard which appears to have been withdrawn at some stage before the branch closed and a single carriage and 4w Heating & Luggage Van used on the branch in its final year/s. CIE appear to have experienced reliability/riding issues with the G611 Class on the Loughrea branch in its final years. At one stage two G611 were allocated to the branch and mixed train operation abandoned, with the G Class double heading (two drivers) a goods around mid-day from Loughrea to the Junction and return, final branch trains including some  beet specials (post closure) all appear to have been worked by B201 Class.

Silver Fox produce a passable rtr models of 1951-3 coaching stock including Brake 3rd and Irish Freight Models once produced a Laminate Brake Standard in kit and rtr format. Silver Fox and IFM have produced quite basic models of 4w Heating & Luggage vans.

While a branch terminus would take up a lot of space a small intermediate station such a Dunsandle on the Loughrea branch or Ardfert on the North Kerry are quite compact, have simple though attractive buildings and would add operational interest to a diorama on a 4' or 6' baseboard with fiddle year at either end possibly fitting within an overal length of 10-12'

 

[jhb171achill]

On 22/12/2024 at 12:45 AM, Mayner said:

Going back to JHBs point on passenger train consists on the Loughrea and Ballina branches a Brake Standard coach (initially Comp-later Standard Class) with storage heaters were allocated to both branch services, so a Heating Van was not required on these services while the Brake Standard was operational, additionally 1442 a Main Line Park Royal was fitted with Storage Heaters and allocated to Ballina branch services.

Ballina was allocated 1904 a 1951-3 Brake Standard and Loughrea 1910 a 1959 Laminate Brake Standard which appears to have been withdrawn at some stage before the branch closed and a single carriage and 4w Heating & Luggage Van used on the branch in its final year/s. CIE appear to have experienced reliability/riding issues with the G611 Class on the Loughrea branch in its final years. At one stage two G611 were allocated to the branch and mixed train operation abandoned, with the G Class double heading (two drivers) a goods around mid-day from Loughrea to the Junction and return, final branch trains including some  beet specials (post closure) all appear to have been worked by B201 Class.

 

The last driver, who I know (Paddy Burke) told me that about 1973/4, coach 1910 was “walloped” by a B201 during shunting. Many windows were smashed and it was deemed not worth repairing. So they replaced it with 1904!

After Loughrea closed, it went back to Ballina for a short time but was soon replaced by one or (variously) two laminates and a tin van….

Interestingly, an almost carbon copy incident occurred at Loughrea in the 1930s when a loco whacked a coach while shunting…

[Niles]

On 21/12/2024 at 5:18 PM, Mol_PMB said:

It may also be worth looking at the branch termini which did survive to the present day and what they were like in the early 1970s. 
Ballina is the obvious example with varied traffic.

Cobh was more passenger-focused but still interesting. 

To be honest, for modellers looking from a GB perspective even some of Ireland’s main line termini were/are more within the scope of a BLT layout. Sligo, Westport, Tralee, Galway, Kilkenny and Killarney only had one or two platforms and a trackplan that could be compressed into a plausible size for a 4mm scale layout. The trains were longer than might be expected at a BLT, but they often didn’t fit the stations! 

I think that the passenger side of Galway would make a very nice layout, one main platform and the bay for the TPO, turntable and stabling point behind and the stub of the Clifden line. 

I always thought Limerick station itself would make a relatively compact (for a city terminus) layout (obviously without including the loco depot or it would be quite long!).

[Mol_PMB]

12 minutes ago, Niles said:

I always thought Limerick station itself would make a relatively compact (for a city terminus) layout (obviously without including the loco depot or it would be quite long!).

Limerick station itself is nice and compact, though the Roxboro' Road bridge is further away than you think, and there a 6 parallel tracks running under that which makes for a complex throat.

I'm looking quite seriously at a shunting layout representing a small part of the wagon works and loco stabling sidings, which I think is well bounded by buildings and scenery and should work with a bit of compression.

[jhb171achill]

38 minutes ago, Niles said:

I always thought Limerick station itself would make a relatively compact (for a city terminus) layout (obviously without including the loco depot or it would be quite long!).

Indeed - Albert Quay likewise…

[GSR 800]

38 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - Albert Quay likewise…

Galway too, though it fans out rapidly with the mpd on one side and the good yard on the other. 

Broadstone, minus the large depot, could be a good basis.

[Westcorkrailway]

45 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Indeed - Albert Quay likewise…

I like the idea of a Rationalised Albert Quay in the 70s with passenger traffic. Because the 1950s Albert quay cramped, yet complex

[Mol_PMB]

Off-topic perhaps for this thread, but this is the sort of thing I'm mulling over for a shunting layout, part of the Limerick wagon works and a tiny bit of the stabling point. Time period would be a bit flexible, mid 1970s to mid 1980s.

The available space for the board is shown by the orange rectangle, 1750mm long and 450mm wide. I can fit in the basic arrangement of the yard without much compression, using 1000mm minimum radius curves:

The main problem is that the headshunt top right is a bit short for shunting the long siding with a mainline diesel loco, though it wouldn't be so bad with G611 or E428, each of which lived here at one stage.

There might be scope for a short headshunt extension but not the full width board; if I did that then I might actually shift the board footprint left a bit to include more of the original WLWR shed.

Originally I had thought of viewing the layout from the bottom of the plan, with (at least some of) the six through lines behind, then the retaining wall and the trees as the backscene. But it just becomes way too wide for my space if I do that. So now I'm thinking of viewing from the top of the plan, with the wagon works forming the main backdrop.

The two isolated sidings on the right wouldn't be functional but could display some of my growing collection of wagons.

Left-hand end of the layout, photographed by Tarkaman in 1988:

Looking from the hypothetical extended headshunt, photo by Ernie in 2005:

Hmm, lots to think about but I'm afraid it's not a BLT!

 

 

[jhb171achill]

8 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I like the idea of a Rationalised Albert Quay in the 70s with passenger traffic. Because the 1950s Albert quay cramped, yet complex

Perfect candidate.

Had it survived into the 1970s, you’re probably looking just 2 or 3 goods sidings for Gouldings, and a single passenger set of a 141, tin van and about three old laminates.

Perfect for limited space.

[Westcorkrailway]

13 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Perfect candidate.

Had it survived into the 1970s, you’re probably looking just 2 or 3 goods sidings for Gouldings, and a single passenger set of a 141, tin van and about three old laminates.

Perfect for limited space.

You’d likely have a siding for the council and there tar (as it would never have gone over to north esk im that scenario) and of course you would have had mixed trains like the youghal goods coming from Bantry or maybe even a dedicated oil train from Bantry (Whiddy Island)

Edited 6 hours ago by Westcorkrailway