Making an ‘E’ – the Maybach Diesel Model Assembly thread

[Mol_PMB]

1 hour ago, Westcorkrailway said:

I was looking for that NLI photo last night! 
 

The one other photo I can’t find but I wasn’t to check is an Ariel photo of Kennedy quay where an E class can be seen shunting in the runaround. 

Thanks for the tip, I found your thread here but couldn't spot the E:

 

Anyway, I looked through the archive itself which has a lot of wonderful photos of the quays and ships of Cork, and some railway photos like this one:

https://publications.corkarchives.ie/view/368357679/334-335/

 

This image shows one of the elusive LMA vans on the far right:

https://publications.corkarchives.ie/view/368357679/678/

[Westcorkrailway]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thanks for the tip, I found your thread here but couldn't spot the E:

 

Anyway, I looked through the archive itself which has a lot of wonderful photos of the quays and ships of Cork, and some railway photos like this one:

https://publications.corkarchives.ie/view/368357679/334-335/

 

This image shows one of the elusive LMA vans on the far right:

https://publications.corkarchives.ie/view/368357679/678/

This would have been a place and white photo taken from atop one of the factories looking down towards Albert quay 

[Mol_PMB]

I bought a fairly cheap (£40) Fleischmann V60 chassis to see if it would be suitable as an RTR donor for the E401.

I think the answer is yes. I can't imagine that there's any more suitable donor loco class out there.

I used a junior hacksaw to cut one end off the chassis casting:

With some minor fettling, the chassis would then fit into the E401 footplate. To align the axle and axlebox I added about 3mm packing at each end; this would give space for a proper mounting bracket each end in due course.

The only thing stopping the bonnet fitting over it was the red plastic terminal on the top of the motor.

However, I was able to replace that with a couple of smaller M2 insulating washers and that was enough to let the bonnet fit down snugly:

You can also see in this photo that the wheelbase is a very good match. The E401 is 20mm + 32mm, while the V60 is 20.5mm + 32mm.

So that's the good points.

 

Slight disadvantages are that the version I bought has rather coarse wheel flanges, it would be fine on code 100 rail but not on code 75. Also the electrics seem to use the chassis block as one side of the circuit, which may make a DCC conversion more tricky. I haven't investigated that yet.

 

And finally, there's the question of the rods. They fit between the E401's outer frames so could be left in place, but I think they might just be visible as the wheels go round, which could look odd. Alternatively they could be removed, leaving the geared drive onto 2 of the 3 axles.

 

Personally, I'm not going to use this chassis option, because I'm going to build a 21mm gauge chassis with suspension and finescale wheels. But the V60 chassis option does look like it will work and I can design some mounting brackets for it.

It's likely that more modern V60 models have better wheel profiles, but there was a limit to how much I was willing to spend on something that's a significant diversion from my own project.

 

I've got another couple of busy work days coming up, but hopefully at the weekend I'll get the etch construction completed and the chassis design progressed too.

[Horsetan]

Fleischmann wheel profiles were always coarse, but then Roco models weren't that much better back then.

Nowadays most Continental HO models try to conform to NEM profile (2.8mm wide tyres), which is still quite coarse. Roco in particular still can't decide what profile to use - some models look as though they have RP25-110, others are NEM. I have a model of the famous 18.201 and that seems to have three different wheel profiles on it

[Mol_PMB]

Has someone at the IRRS been reading my mind? Or my thread?

Newly uploaded, a wonderful photo of E410, the loco I’m modelling, in Cork, March 1959.

https://flic.kr/p/2qLkHsi

This shows the opposite side of the loco compared to the Fenit photo, and happily my guess on the generator access panel detail was correct. 

Thank you!

 

[jhb171achill]

Worth noting that nothing that was silver - be it a locomotive, TPO, coach or tin van, ever carried a "flying snail" - they were plain. No lining either.

With one exception: the "A" class diesels had a painted METAL "snail" attached to the sides.

[Mol_PMB]

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Worth noting that nothing that was silver - be it a locomotive, TPO, coach or tin van, ever carried a "flying snail" - they were plain. No lining either.

With one exception: the "A" class diesels had a painted METAL "snail" attached to the sides.

Thos may be opening a can of worms, but what shade of green was used for the numbers on silver locos? 
The few colour photos of silver E’s suggest it was darker than eau-de-nil, presumably either the light or the dark green. 
I appreciate that the numbers often faded or even peeled off on some classes, but they seem to have been more durable on the Es. 
 

[jhb171achill]

10 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Thos may be opening a can of worms, but what shade of green was used for the numbers on silver locos? 
The few colour photos of silver E’s suggest it was darker than eau-de-nil, presumably either the light or the dark green. 
I appreciate that the numbers often faded or even peeled off on some classes, but they seem to have been more durable on the Es. 
 

It was the standard “eau-de-nil” - the numbers were transfers. 

Note to the general community; anyone with a silverfox model of a silver prototype will probably have black lettering on it, and possibly black roofs too. This, like many livery details on silverfox’s Irish models, is entirely incorrect.

[Mol_PMB]

Just back from the Waldorf and an excellent IRRS talk on the DNGR. 
 

Now then, ‘eau de nil’. Do we have any sort of colour code for it? RAL or whatever. 
 

Maybe it’s the context but the numbers on this look very pale: 

And not at all like the numbers on this which are quite a dark green:

also note: no snail… 
(photos from Ernie)

 

I’m pretty sure these are mid green on an E:

https://flic.kr/p/2qEmw16

(IRRS photo)

 

I’ve only found a few colour photos of silver E’s but the numbers are very much green. 

[Mol_PMB]

Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra. 
Why are colour descriptions so imprecise? 

 

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra. 
Why are colour descriptions so imprecise? 

 

If it's there you want to be, I wouldn't be starting from here!

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra. 
Why are colour descriptions so imprecise? 

 

Top left there is closest.

RAL is 130 70 40.

[Mayner]

The British Standard for Eau de Nil is BS3181C-216 https://www.britishstandardcolour.com/ 

Its likely that the Eau de Nil used by CIE during the 40s and 50s may have been derived from a British Colour Council reference code in use at the time.

I think its unlikely that CIE would have been able to select a RAL colour during the late 40s, a German system wound up by the Nazis in 1942, incorporated in the German Standards Committee in 1952.

Edited February 14 by Mayner

[jhb171achill]

12 minutes ago, Mayner said:

The British Standard for Eau de Nil is BS3181C-216 https://www.britishstandardcolour.com/ 

Its likely that the Eau de Nil used by CIE during the 40s and 50s may have been derived from a British Colour Council reference code in use at the time,

 

That certainly looks right, based on an original "snail" I'm looking at right now....

[David Holman]

Don't forget that perceived colour depends on all sorts of things - weather, light/shadow, age, cleaning (or not), even the size of a model. For sure we want to get things as close as possible, but suspect that absolute fidelity is unlikely.

 Don't forget too that gentlemen's perception of colour, especially greens, deteriorates with age and we should defer to the fair sex on such matters.

 Scares the bejaysus out of me when my wife asks for my opinion on colour matching! She really ought to know by now...

[Mayner]

22 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Don't forget that perceived colour depends on all sorts of things - weather, light/shadow, age, cleaning (or not), even the size of a model. For sure we want to get things as close as possible, but suspect that absolute fidelity is unlikely.

When I was involved in both housing and commercial construction clients sometimes became convinced rooms were painted in different colours, despite the paint being from a batch of the same colour.

In one case a client became convinced that the hall and living room of a new home were painted in different colours because of natural lighting and the relative size of the rooms, built on an East-West aspect the much larger living room was exposed to direct sunlight in the mornings while the hall was in shade the opposite in afternoons.

[Mol_PMB]

I'm pretty sure that the silver E class weren't numbered with the same set of transfers as the silver Metrovicks. The E class have much bolder figures and the shapes of some of the figures are quite different, for example the 2 and the 9.

[Westcorkrailway]

45 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm pretty sure that the silver E class weren't numbered with the same set of transfers as the silver Metrovicks. The E class have much bolder figures and the shapes of some of the figures are quite different, for example the 2 and the 9.

Yes I would agree

 

also does the person who runs the IRRS flicker a follower on here. 2 pictures have been posted in 2 days. One a green van (from the other thread) and the other an E class (from this thread!)

Edited February 14 by Westcorkrailway

[Angus]

11 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Just back from the Waldorf and an excellent IRRS talk on the DNGR. 

I which case I must have been sat by you last night and didn't realise. I must make more of an effort to introduce myself! 

It was a great talk though. 

Edited February 14 by Angus

[Horsetan]

2 hours ago, Angus said:

I which case I must have been sat by you last night and didn't realise. I must make more of an effort to introduce myself! 

It was a great talk though. 

Hiding in plain sight?

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I'm pretty sure that the silver E class weren't numbered with the same set of transfers as the silver Metrovicks. The E class have much bolder figures and the shapes of some of the figures are quite different, for example the 2 and the 9.

Same manufacturer, and according to same colour codes. They often look darker - probably due to different materials used?

[Mol_PMB]

It's surprising how long it takes to do something as simple as transfer artwork, when one's OCD demands the correct style for every digit. They are drawn from several fonts and then modified to be the closest match I can reasonably get.

First stage is to collate all the real images:

And then to find the squarest clearest image as a basis (in this case E417) to set the size and proportions of the typeface.

Then develop the other digits to match.

As for colours, well I've used the BS chart linked by John, and the paler one is BS381C-216 'eau de nil', whilst the other two are the related but slightly darker shades BS381C-217 and BS381C-218. There aren't many colour photos of the E class in silver, and they're not consistent with each other! And who knows how accurately the transfer ink will match whatever I specify.

Never mind, the shapes are right I think.

 

So is that the job done? Of course not!

The white letters and numerals were all sorts of different shapes, sizes and colours. Sometimes not even the same on both ends of the same loco. I'll probably have to do each loco individually. Sigh...

     

 

Edited February 14 by Mol_PMB

[jhb171achill]

11 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It's surprising how long it takes to do something as simple as transfer artwork, when one's OCD demands the correct style for every digit. They are drawn from several fonts and then modified to be the closest match I can reasonably get.

First stage is to collate all the real images:

And then to find the squarest clearest image as a basis (in this case E417) to set the size and proportions of the typeface.

Then develop the other digits to match.

As for colours, well I've used the BS chart linked by John, and the paler one is BS381C-216 'eau de nil', whilst the other two are the related but slightly darker shades BS381C-217 and BS381C-218. There aren't many colour photos of the E class in silver, and they're not consistent with each other! And who knows how accurately the transfer ink will match whatever I specify.

Never mind, the shapes are right I think.

 

So is that the job done? Of course not!

The white letters and numerals were all sorts of different shapes, sizes and colours. Sometimes not even the same on both ends of the same loco. I'll probably have to do each loco individually. Sigh...

     

 

The shapes certainly look spot on. Colour-wise, I think the middle is probably best.

[Mol_PMB]

12 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

also does the person who runs the IRRS flicker a follower on here. 2 pictures have been posted in 2 days. One a green van (from the other thread) and the other an E class (from this thread!)

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here!
https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU
I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? 
Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!

 

 

 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

37 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here!
https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU
I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? 
Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!

 

 

 

 

You’ve got sleeper agents in the IRRS working for you…it’s all a big conspiracy!!! 
 

ahem. Mr IRRS, photos of west cork next please 

[BSGSV]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here!
https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU
I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? 
Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!

 

 

 

 

I may be wrong, but I think I see a number just to the right of the works plate.

Edited February 14 by BSGSV
Typo

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

I see a photo of A28 in its odd livery has just been uploaded. I’m sure I commented on that somewhere in another thread here!
https://flic.kr/p/2qLJtfU
I still don’t know what colour it was, dark all over with numbers only on the ends, nothing on the sides at all. Possibly primer or undercoat? 
Anyway, fascinating pics, thanks IRRS!

 

 

 

 

That's the normal green. Some green locos had lining and some didn't; the missing number on the side could be just - missing - or it could have worn off. As BSGSV says, the makers plate is visible. They all still had them then as far as I remember. And a string of all-grey bubbles behind it; the epitome of the "grey'n'green" era!

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

That's the normal green. Some green locos had lining and some didn't; the missing number on the side could be just - missing - or it could have worn off. As BSGSV says, the makers plate is visible. They all still had them then as far as I remember. And a string of all-grey bubbles behind it; the epitome of the "grey'n'green" era!

I suggest we continue this discussion on the liveries page, here:

https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#comment-256501

I have laid out my reasoning for why I think this may be a non-standard livery, based on the study of hundreds of A class photos when compiling my livery matrix.

Note that the photo date is March 1966. The loco could be green, but if so it would have been painted that colour after June 1962.

I agree that the bubbles are grey; they are a mixture of the first batch (with wheel handbrake) and the second batch (with Morton lever handbrake). Orange bubbles would first appear the following year.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

I got the soldering iron out again this morning and added a load of smaller details, so we now have:

Fuel and oil filler pipes on the footplate:

Guard irons and vacuum brake pipes at each end:

A quick overview at that stage:

Then back to the workbench to add buffer bases and fettle to trial fit the buffers themselves:

Followed by using various offcuts of wire, tube and strip to create a representation of fuel tank support brackets, fuel balance pipe and drain valves:

Finally, the windscreen wipers:

I feel like I'm very nearly there with the body and footplate construction. I'll put it to one side for a little bit and try to work out what I've forgotten!

Some of these details can be seen on the real thing in this excellent pair of photos recently uploaded by Ernie:

 

The next major step is to finalise the functional chassis design and then get the custom chassis etch made.

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Now that I think I've finished the bodywork, I thought I'd make a start with building the gearbox, to ensure that it is compatible with my chassis design. I've prepared all the parts ready for assembly, but will leave that until tomorrow. So thisis the sum total of where I'm up to so far:

 

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks again, IRRS Flickr! 
E401 absolutely fresh out of the box, we can see which bits of the running gear were silver when new:

https://flic.kr/p/2qLQC63

 

It’s also interesting to see which bits weren’t silver on the bodywork - things like pipes, grab rails and bonnet door catches. It looks as if the top surface of the footplate may have been painted black too. 

 

[Westcorkrailway]

It’s not even subtle anymore. We have a supporter in the archives

[Mol_PMB]

The new photo of E401 uploaded by the IRRS is interesting in showing the original paint job before it started to get dirty. We may think of silver locos as a 'dip job' - silver all over - but in fact there are quite a few details that were not silver.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54328667572

My interpretation of the photo is as follows:

Red: 

• buffer beams (not buffers)

Black:

• buffers and housings
• couplings
• vac pipes
• lamp irons
• footstep treads
• handrails and grab handles
• bonnet door catches
• bonnet door stops on footplate
• axleboxes (not hornguides)
• leaf springs and upper part of hangers (not hanger brackets or auxiliary springs)
• rubber surround to windows

An intermediate colour (may not all be the same):

• oil and fuel filler pipes
• water filler pipes
• drain pipe on front

A major part I am not sure about from this photo is the colour of the top surface of the footplate. The front edge looks black but the angle of this view doesn't show us the top.

 

Now, the locos may not all have been painted the same - sometimes the first loco of a class was outshopped in a special livery for photos, or the scheme was simplified as construction continued. But let's look at some other photos of relatively clean silver locos and see if we can confirm the colours.

 

On close inspection of the other photos of clean locos, the details picked out in black usually seem to be consistent, though this is most obvious on clean locos and the contrast rapidly reduces in service. This photo of a fairly clean E412 shows the bodywork details but the axleboxes and hornguides have already become uniform dirt:

https://www.transporttreasury.com/jim-flint-jim-harbart-1001-1997/hab80c1ff#hab80c1ff

But after a year in service the contrast on things like the footstep treads and grab rails was much reduced - probably a combination of wear and dirt. Seen here on E410:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54323027377

Also note that the water filler pipes on E410 look to be silver, whereas on E401 and E412 they were very clearly a darker colour. The smaller drain pipe, however, looks silver on E412 but is clearly dark on E401. I get the impression that the locos were not all painted identically...

 

Next, the top of the footplate, which is also the top of the fuel tank. A place where staff would have to walk and work, and where oil spills from the fillers and leaks from the engine compartment could spread. Would it be just smooth and painted silver? An odd choice - if it were my loco I'd make it chequerplate and black or grey.

There are a few photos from higher viewpoints which show this. This photo of E409 when it was still pretty clean shows a grubby pale-coloured footplate that matches the side of the fuel tank - it's probably silver and certainly isn't black:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445965317

There's also a photo of clean E407 on its first test run reproduced in IRRS journal 14/84 Feb 1981, p173. The top of the footplate matches the side of the fuel tank and the side of the bonnet. It contrasts with the black of the lamp irons and bonnet door stops.

On the other hand, this view of E414 shows a fairly uniform dark colour on the footplate - is this a combination of dirt and shadow or was it painted? The rest of the loco is fairly clean. Also, we know that the Cork crews applied some local modifications to some of their E401s, like adding cab insulation. They might have modified the livery too.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511885685/

The view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70 also appears to show a dark footplate. That's a Colour-Rail image but I can't find it on their website.

 

Some may have been painted a darker colour., but on the other hand, the loco lurking on the right of this colour image shows nicely how the filth accumulated to hide the original colour:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255052946/

My gut feel is that it was probably silver to start with, but soon became filthy. This view of E411 by Alan Roome from 'Rails around Dublin' (Murray) p69 also shows how the filth gathered on the top surfaces:

 

Now, for the pipes which have some an intermediate colour. I haven't found many colour photos of E401s in silver livery and even fewer where the loco is the main subject. The best one is of E402 by Neville Simms, reproduced in 'Irish Traction in Colour (Huntriss) p77:

This photo has clear evidence of colour - blue - on the water filler pipes at the front. However, the other pipes are indeterminate and any trace of colour is lost in the grime.

Ernie's photos of E413 in black livery (see yesterday's post) show that the water filler pipes were also painted blue in the later livery, and the oil filler pipes were green. It would be reasonable to assume that the fuel and oil filler pipes were also green when the locos were in silver livery, but soon became grimy.

 

Another nice colour view is this IRRS one of E403, from the opposite angle:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284989/

On this photo there is no sign of colour on the water and oil/fuel fillers - they look to be silver. Also note that the air receiver under the cab is silver - in the later black livery these were often yellow or orange.

 

 

I think I'll walk carefully back out of this minefield...

[Signal Post]

I should clarify that my "funny" emoji reaction to your last post solely relates to the last line!

The rest of that post and indeed this thread is wonderfully informative and interesting, I never had a huge interest in the E401 class...until now. Now they are definitely on my bucket list.

Your work on building this model is truly amazing, from doing the artwork for the etches through to obtaining the etches and then onto construction has been wonderful to observe and all done at a pace that even @Darius43 of this parish (who appears to be the record holder for rapid and wonderful construction of models) would , I am sure, be proud of.

Thanks for all of this and keep it coming!

Edited Sunday at 15:14 by Signal Post

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks, you're too kind!

I decided to ask Colour-Rail for a better copy of the view of E402 in 1961 shown in Irish Railways Traction and Travel, 1994 edition, page 70, and they are going to scan it for me.

In the process we have also identified two other nice colour views in their collection, reference numbers IR637 and FIE02925. I'm ordering good copies of those for my personal use, but for info if you put those numbers into the 'reference' search box here:

https://colourrail.co.uk/nonuk

You will find that IR637 is mainly a colour view of D class 1000 in original dark green, plus the cab of silver E417. Dark green loco, eau-de-nil snail and E number in one shot, for the shades of green...

FIE02925 is a panoramic colour view of the goods yard at Albert Quay, with E403 shunting. The top of the footplate looks very dark, but then so does the roof!

 

Slightly tangential:

• FIE04522 is E413 in black, a very nice view shunting a green carriage
• FIE05083 and FIE05084 are at Fenit, with a silver shunter at work, but it's G602 rather than an E.