Hitting the G spot

[Mol_PMB]

It feels like my E class is on the home straight (and I hope I'm not tempting fate) and as usual my brain is working more quickly than my hands, not always in a helpful way!

I'm building my E as E410 on a Fenit theme, and I'm well aware that the G class also worked to Fenit - initially G601s and later G611s. So I was wondering about the options for a G class model. 30-odd years ago I scratchbuilt one in plasticard but it wasn't very satisfactory and is long gone now. I've seen references to several different G class kits, but I'd just like to tap your collective wisdom! 

In particular, which of the kits would be suitable for 21m gauge and might satisfy my OCD levels? The issue with 21mm gauge is that on the prototype the wheels are very closely spaced inside the frames, so that when using the correct gauge and slightly overscale width wheels, they definitely don't fit behind frames made overscale thickness.

It appears that Silver Fox do a resin cast G601, which looks OK if a little basic, but with a one-piece resin chassis that looks like it isn't suitable for 21mm gauge:

IR / IÉ 601 Class (G Class) 0-4-0 Deutz | Silver Fox Models

Then there's the DC Kits G611, looks a bit tidier but again I'm unsure if this would be suitable for 21mm gauge?

CIE/Irish Rail Class G Shunter

The third option I've identified is the Worsley Works etched kit for a G611. This looks like it might be suitable for 21mm gauge though I'm not 100% sure:  

Irish Railways Deutz Diesel CIE Coras Iompair Eireann in 4mm Scale

My gut feel is that the Worsley Works G611 is most suitable, but I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has built one of these to 21mm gauge.

Also, are there any options for the G601 suitable for 21mm gauge?

 

If this turns out to be too hard, I can always just build another E class!

Many thanks,

Mol 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Horsetan]

The Worsley Works one is probably the one with the most potential, but you have to make your own detail castings.

[Darius43]

I’m not sure DC kits kits are available any more.  Their website still lists them but I’m sure I read a while back that most of them don’t exist anymore.  You can still order them but don’t expect anything to turn up…

I know this from experience.

Cheers

Darius

 

[Mayner]

The Worsley Works G builds into a nice model and is supplied with a 21mm gauge chassis.

Des SSM produced a very nice waterslid transfer set for this loco including legible Duetz makers plates, unfortunately the origonal cabside transfers wore off with handling when I attempted to convert the loco to OO several years ago

Although originally motorised with a "Black Beetle" motor bogie re-gauged to 21mm, G611 currently runs on a scratchbuilt chassis powered by a Coreless motor driving a pair of Hi-Level Roadrunner+ gearboxes using a layshaft with a Tender-Riser steo down gearbox. Like my other locos with can or coreless motors and Hi Level gearboxes could never get this loco to reliably operate on DCC, in this case driving each axle with a separate gearbox may have resulted in increased friction and current consumption.

Long term plans are to power the 21mm gauge version of this loco with a customised "Quad-driver" arrangement similar to Pauls E401 Class

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

I’m not sure DC kits kits are available any more.  ....

 

They're not. Charlie Petty stopped production of all of his kits years ago. Something about it not being economically viable to carry on, especially as the RTR lads muscled in on his DMU territory.

He earns his money from that bewildering range of DCC sound chips, DVDs and books.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks for all the info! Looks like Worsley Works is the one for me. 
A local supplier too - Worsley is only a few miles away. 

cheers,

Mol

[David Holman]

I've got one in 7mm scale that went together well enough. It uses Delrin chain and gears to give four wheel drive. Must be on my Workshop thread, but you'll have to go back a bit to find it.

[Mol_PMB]

2 minutes ago, David Holman said:

I've got one in 7mm scale that went together well enough. It uses Delrin chain and gears to give four wheel drive. Must be on my Workshop thread, but you'll have to go back a bit to find it.

Many thanks David, I'll take a look back through the thread. It's good to hear that several people have built them and achieved good results.

I've used the Delrin chain on 7mm scale models, but with small-wheeled shunters in 4mm scale it's hard to get fine enough chain or small enough sprockets.

[Mol_PMB]

Well after placing an order yesterday afternoon, this was just delivered to my door by Allen himself. Can't get much better service than that!

The kit doesn't include a chassis, and Allen says it never has done. However, he did put in a couple of nickel silver strips that I can use as a starting point, which was very helpful.

The comments in some of the linked threads about the cabsides being in the wrong orientation on the original etch are correct - hence the provision of a second cab etch with them the right way round.

Of course this has me wondering about rebuilding the 'wrong' cab as a G601, and if that works then buying a second kit to finish it off.

It will have to join the queue as I definitely have too many projects on the go!

 

[Horsetan]

5 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

...

The kit doesn't include a chassis, and Allen says it never has done. However, he did put in a couple of nickel silver strips....

 

Interesting that the website doesn't mention that omission....

[Mol_PMB]

11 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

Interesting that the website doesn't mention that omission....

The website does describe it as "CIE G CLASS DUETZ DIESEL 1961 - 1977: Complete Body Kit for the D611 type - No castings." so one wouldn't expect a chassis in a body kit. I won't pick out the typos...

However, I found some descriptions of building it which said it came with a 21mm gauge chassis. The wheelbase is 33mm, I'll have to start sketching up some drive options.

There are a few oddities, such as there being holes apparently for handrail knobs in the cab backsheet, where there are no handrails on the prototype. Meanwhile there is no provision for the built-in lamps on the cab backsheet of a G611.

On the G611, the cabside handrails are set into recesses on the prototype, which could have easily been provided on the etch, but are not. Although in most areas it's a G611, there are some aspects which are more like a G601. 

However, the Worsley products are sold as scratch aids rather than full kits, and in that context it's certainly a massive step ahead of some blank sheets of brass. It's also inexpensive at £33. So I'm not complaining, and I look forward to adding to my shunter fleet.

[Horsetan]

3 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

The website does describe it as "CIE G CLASS DUETZ DIESEL 1961 - 1977: Complete Body Kit for the D611 type - No castings." so one wouldn't expect a chassis in a body kit. I won't pick out the typos...

However, I found some descriptions of building it which said it came with a 21mm gauge chassis.....

This one suggests there is a fold-up chassis in the pack....

[murrayec]

23 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

This one suggests there is a fold-up chassis in the pack....

The WW Kit provides outer frames in the etches, but does not include frames for a chassis. Most builders, but not all, use a 'spud' or Blackbeetle motor bogies for power so all that is needed is a cross support to mount the bogie off.......

Eoin

[Mayner]

9 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Well after placing an order yesterday afternoon, this was just delivered to my door by Allen himself. Can't get much better service than that!

The kit doesn't include a chassis, and Allen says it never has done. However, he did put in a couple of nickel silver strips that I can use as a starting point, which was very helpful.

The comments in some of the linked threads about the cabsides being in the wrong orientation on the original etch are correct - hence the provision of a second cab etch with them the right way round.

Of course this has me wondering about rebuilding the 'wrong' cab as a G601, and if that works then buying a second kit to finish it off.

It will have to join the queue as I definitely have too many projects on the go!

 

Interestingly the original version of the WW G (cabsides wrong orientation) was supplied with a simple fold up 21mm N/S chassis complete with 2 nylon worm & gear sets! Even more interestingly Jeremy Fletcher talks about a fold up 21mm gauge gear box supplied with the parts on his article on building the loco on the WW website https://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/Image-Pages/Image_4mm_Deutz-3.htm  Photos of Mike Edge (possible pattern for DC G Class) & Jeremy's G Class indicate that at one stage the WW G was supplied with plastic spring and axlebox castings.

I still have the original 21mm gauge fold up chassis supplied with my G Class, perhaps some day get around to motorising it with my own drive based on a High Level QuadDriver or more likely a drive designed by Paul.

I used a scratchbuilt chassis to power the loco while running in OO, basically two plain strips of brass and commercial turned frame spacers possibly supplied with an SSM J15!

 

[Mol_PMB]

I have been doing some more research on the G class, prompted by a discussion with @jhb171achill last weekend about the dimensional accuracy of some G class models. I haven't seen any official drawings of the G class so I've been looking into the origins of the design. Here's a nice photo of the preserved G601, from Jonathan Allen on Flickr:

These small shunters are a variant of the widespread German Köf II design, of which over 1000 were built. The standard Köf II was a much squatter loco, because it was designed to be moved long distance on a flat wagon. Nevertheless, if you look at the photo below you'll see some common features with G601 above, things like the axleboxes and springs, oblong holes in the main frames, bonnet access doors, cab front windows. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRG_Kleinlokomotive_Class_II

There are dimensioned drawings of the Köf II here:

http://www.industriespoor.nl/tekeningDeutzA6M517.htm

https://www.gartenbahn-werkstatt.de/de/zeichnungen/horst-dieter-hettler/diesel-lokomotiven/

https://www.woernitz-franken.de/koef.htm

 

There are however several differences from the Köf II, not just the cab but the engine, which is air-cooled on a G but water-cooled on the Köf II.

The G601 class is a Deutz model A8L 614 R, a variant of the Köf II produced in smaller quantities for industrial users in Germany, the Netherlands and elsewhere. There's more information on the A8L 614 R here, including drawings on all three websites:

http://www.industriespoor.nl/tekeningDeutzKK130B.htm

https://cftr.evolutive.org/amateur/engins_moteurs/Deutz_e.php

https://www.rangierdiesel.de/index.php?nav=1405415&lang=1

Here's a Flickr photo from Alex Leroy illustrating one of them, with a clear resemblance to the G601s. The cab, bonnet and frames appear identical, but the bufferbeams and running plates are different, and the frames are closer together to suit 1435mm gauge. So it should be possible to carry over many of the A8L 614 R dimensions (from the drawings linked above) and check against the G class.

Searching for A8L 614 R on the rangierdiesel website gives a list of 67 locos, which include G601 (Deutz 56119), G602 (Deutz 56118), G603 (Deutz 56120); note they are not in order.

https://www.rangierdiesel.de/index.php?view=fahrzeuge&object=A8L+614+R&nav=1406157&lang=1&action=results

Clicking on 'typengalerie' and selecting Deutz and A8L 614 R gives a gallery of hundreds of images of these locos across Europe, which have a great deal in common with the G601s, although they mostly have a low-level running board rather than a footplate at cab floor height. Here's an example:

http://www.rangierdiesel.de/images/basic/deutz_56744_58.jpg

There are even three photos of G601 at work which I hadn't seen before:

http://www.rangierdiesel.de/images/basic/deutz_56119_51.jpg

http://www.rangierdiesel.de/images/basic/deutz_56119_52.jpg

http://www.rangierdiesel.de/images/basic/deutz_56119_53.jpg

 

Some of the later A8L 614 R class had the larger windows of the G611s:

http://www.rangierdiesel.de/images/basic/deutz_57236_53.jpg

So, what about the G611s? These were an improved model with more power, designated A8L 714 R. Searching for A8L 614 on the rangierdiesel website gives a list of just 7 locos - our familiar G611 class.

https://www.rangierdiesel.de/index.php?view=fahrzeuge&object=A8L+714+R&nav=1406157&lang=1&action=results

The list gives works numbers as:

G611 (Deutz 57225), G612 (Deutz 57224), G613 (Deutz 57226), G614 (Deutz 57228), G615 (Deutz 57223), G616 (Deutz 57227), G617 (Deutz 57229); note they are not in order.

There's also a link to a photo of the preserved G613.

 

Later, the model designation became KK140 B, such as this example on Flickr from Helgoland01. This may have had a different engine, but I'm not sure. Note the light clusters similar to the G611s but positioned differently:

 

My next step is to overlay the 3 drawings of the A8L 614 R and compare to the Worsley Works etched parts, and we'll see where we go from there...

[Mol_PMB]

I've tried scaling, aligning and overlaying the 3 drawings of the German/Dutch version. They're similar but not quite identical in shape.

I also found this elsewhere on the forum, so now I need to try and overlay this too. It's not great quality though = does anyone know of a better version?