Driving Wheel availability (4mm scale Irish steam locos)

[Mol_PMB]

There seems to be a shortage developing in the supply of wheelsets for kitbuilding and scratchbuilding in 4mm scale. 

My background is mostly in 7mm scale modelling where Slaters is the preferred supplier, but now I'm working in 4mm I'm finding that while there are many more firms referenced, few of these seem to actually be in production. Others have changed hands and the range may be under a different name, or no longer available. Of course there are also different wheel profile standards for OO, EM and P4 and from what I've read the manufacturers don't seem entirely consistent. And then there's a need for extra-long axles for 21mm gauge. I am confused!

From what I understand, Ultrascale are still in business but with lead times often more than a year. Markits have ceased trading owing to the death of the owner. Alan Gibson (the firm) continues to trade, now run by someone else, but are having production difficulties with some items. General traders such as Wizard Models who used to stock many of these wheels and other detail parts are showing out of stock on a majority of items. Some other ranges seem to have vanished into thin air. 

10 years ago it seems that one could choose based on factors like quality, appearance, ease of quartering, wheel tread profile etc. Now it seems you're lucky to get any suitable wheels at all! I'm mulling this over now because if I'm going to have to order the wheels a year in advance then I need to think ahead. Have I got this right? Am I missing something obvious? If I wanted to build a steam loco where should I get the wheels?

 

Down to specifics, I'm considering an SSM kit for either the J26 or J15, with a preference for the J26 number 560. I'm working in 21mm gauge, EM wheel profile standards.

I note that the wheels recommended for the J26 are from 'Scale Link' who seem to be retiring and I can't find any driving wheels on their website. If they are still available there's no indication of what profile options exist.

The wheels recommended for the J15 are from Alan Gibson and may still be available directly (though out of stock at Wizard). I also note that they are slightly larger than the prototype's wheels which may cause issues with clearances - I would have thought a slightly smaller diameter would be preferable if the exact dimension wasn't available. Alan Gibson also uses the same profile for OO and EM so I'm concerned these will be too big over the flanges.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction? This will help me decide whether to tackle a steam loco.

Cheers,

Mol

[Rob R]

Any use?

Sharman Wheels

I know the range is reducing but there may be something there.

 

[Tullygrainey]

Your assessment of the supply situation for 4mm wheels is about right in my experience. Markits are unavailable either directly or from secondary suppliers like Wizard or Roxey Mouldings as their supplies run out and Ultrascale lead times are extremely long. I did manage to get some Sharman wheels from Phoenix Paints who bought the tools to make them but their stocks are running out now and they don't intend to do any more production runs because the tools are worn out. Alan Gibson seems to be almost the only reliable source left now.  

I've nearly always used Gibson wheels for my steam loco builds and I buy them directly from Gibsons. I find their service reliable and I've never had any difficulty getting what I need from them - my last order was October 2024 so things might have changed since then regarding availability. Delivery times can vary a bit depending on whether or not things are in stock at the time of ordering but I've never had to wait an unduly long time for anything.

I'm no expert on wheel profiles but I think the Gibson flanges are small enough for Code 75 track.

Alan

 

Edited March 17 by Tullygrainey

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks both, that’s really helpful!

Assuming suitable wheels are available, do you have any views on the comparable quality of Gibson and Sharman? 
It looks like Sharman have something fairly close to what would be needed for the J26 (which is my preference for a prototype). 

[Tullygrainey]

Not much to choose between them, quality wise, I would say. The Sharmans have the advantage of coming with the crankpins already moulded in. The Gibsons have a hole pre-drilled and the crankpins cut their own thread as you screw them in. There's always the risk of them not going in square, at least when I'm doing them

Sharmans on this little RSH shunter.

 

Edited March 17 by Tullygrainey

[Mol_PMB]

I think the 4'6" 16-spoke wheels for the J26 are going to be a problem.

Sharman make a 15-spoke version but there's only one wheelset left in stock, which isn't much good on its own. Going down a size there are too few spokes.

Gibson only do 14 or fewer spokes on the 4'6" wheels, and nothing suitable going down a size.

Maybe I should stick to diesels! Or not worry too much about the wheels - you can hardly see them anyway! But I do have a soft spot for this little tankie and it could run with my silver E class and the forthcoming G class.

JPS_MGWR_560_Fenit_05_June_1961 | [Photographer: John Philli… | Flickr

 

[Rob R]

 

If you can manage with being 0.5mm oversize then would the Gibson 4855 LMS Jinty wheel 15 spoke pin in line do?

Or the Sharman SW-S182 (4ft 7in 15 spoke)?

Or just go with 14 spokes, you can't count them when they are turning!

It is worth keeping an eye on the Bay of Flea for wheels.

You might not get a set in one go but you can plug away at your shopping list one axle at a time.

Edited March 17 by Rob R
stuff

[Mol_PMB]

Thanks Rob! 

My concern about oversize wheels is whether they'll fit. The flanges are already bigger than scale, and if that's on top of a bigger wheel diameter then they will be scraping the inside of the splashers. I'd like to have some sort of suspension or compensation which increases the need for some clearance there. Hence why my 'engineering' preference is to go to a smaller size if the 4'6" is unavailable - in reality there would be a couple of inches of wear/reprofiling allowance in the tyres anyway. But perhaps I'm worrying too much about this - you may well be right that the Jinty wheels would be fine. I can always make slightly bigger splashers if needed and I don't think they would change the character of the loco.

To be fair, on the J26 clearance is only an issue on the leading wheelset as the others are hidden inside the tanks/cab with plenty of clearance available. And as you say, when the wheels are turning you can't see them.

I have also asked SSM Des whether he has any suitable wheels in stock or thoughts for alternatives.

I think in general the wheel situation will become more of a problem for kit and scratchbuilders as the firms close down and stocks sell out. But perhaps the market is moving inexorably towards RTR?

Cheers,

Mol

 

[Tullygrainey]

17 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

 think in general the wheel situation will become more of a problem for kit and scratchbuilders as the firms close down and stocks sell out. But perhaps the market is moving inexorably towards RTR?

Cheers,

Mol

 

It's a worry isn't it. I'd hate to think we'd have to give up kit or scratch building because we can't get wheels any more, not to mention all those other little details that are difficult to make from scratch like buffers, chimneys, domes, axle boxes and so on. We might have to find a new hobby  I'm no good at knitting and jigsaws don't really hold my attention.

Edited March 17 by Tullygrainey

[Mol_PMB]

9 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

It's a worry isn't it. I'd hate to think we'd have to give up kit or scratch building because we can't get wheels any more, not to mention all those other little details that are difficult to make from scratch like buffers, chimneys, domes, axle boxes and so on. We might have to find a new hobby  I'm no good at knitting and jigsaws don't really hold my attention.

Agreed. Turned steel buffer heads are another item that has become extremely scarce recently, as have many varieties of sprung buffers. I've had to resort to buying RTR spares from Hornby or SLW for some of my projects - the SLW buffers are expensive but spot on for my E class. 

[Galteemore]

29 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

It's a worry isn't it. I'd hate to think we'd have to give up kit or scratch building because we can't get wheels any more, not to mention all those other little details that are difficult to make from scratch like buffers, chimneys, domes, axle boxes and so on. We might have to find a new hobby  I'm no good at knitting and jigsaws don't really hold my attention.

You’re not wrong Alan. I have two loco projects in boxes ready to build with all the ‘rare’ bits already purchased and laid by. When I am planning a loco I buy wheels first, then distinctive, characterful things like chimneys and domes. That way I know it’s  all laid by ready. Given how long it takes to build a loco, by the time you’ve gone from chassis to superstructure your favoured supplier may have stopped trading.

 

[commerlad]

Hi means having to join to buy but

3mm Scale Model Railways TT Wheels

As for axles to suit 21mm, I don't know but I've never looked.

Component wise,

3SMR 3mm Scale Model Railways TT LOCOMOTIVE SECTION

Just ignore the fact that they are made for 3mm and find a size that suits, All measurements are actual.

Edited March 17 by commerlad

[Mol_PMB]

10 minutes ago, commerlad said:

Hi means having to join to buy but

3mm Scale Model Railways TT Wheels

As for axles to suit 21mm, I don't know but I've never looked.

Component wise,

3SMR 3mm Scale Model Railways TT LOCOMOTIVE SECTION

Just ignore the fact that they are made for 3mm and find a size that suits, All measurements are actual.

Very interesting- many thanks! 

[Andy Cundick]

The wheel situation is such that for 4mm at the moment the only ranges available are Gibson and  Scalelink.Sharman wheels to all intents and purposes went a long time ago other than that there is Ultrascale as long as you have the patience and pocket.For 21mm you are looking at Gibson as Scalelink uses Romford/Markits axles.For  21mm axles i use 1/8" bright mild steel rod and cut them to length usually 1" depending on the boss depth Its eay enough to get the exact size just take the two wheels and a back to back gauge and measure the overall size and no you don't need a lathe just a hacksaw and a file'its the system i've used for all my  Irish standard gauge locos. Andy

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

.....I think in general the wheel situation will become more of a problem for kit and scratchbuilders as the firms close down and stocks sell out. But perhaps the market is moving inexorably towards RTR?

Wheels are always a touchy subject.

Ultrascale now has a 12-month wait list and that actually increases the possibility of customers actually dying whilst waiting for their orders to progress up the queue. In many ways, they're a victim of their own success because, each time they manage to reduce the waiting time, word spreads, and more orders go in, causing the queues to lengthen back to what they were before.

AGW have no intention of tooling up for new types of driving wheel - realistically that kind of development stopped when Alan Gibson sold his eponymous business all those years ago.

Likewise I don't think there was any real intention of getting Sharman production going again - the production techniques and tooling were eccentric to say the least, and Steve & Angela Hodgson did well to keep it going in Wales for as long as they did before selling to Phoenix. The weakness of Sharman wheels is that the built-in crankpins are a fixed length; if you want to portray full thickness big ends on the driven axle, then they are not long enough.

Since RTR wheels are now much better at representing the appearance of the real thing, some P4 modellers are buying RTR driving wheels as spares, turning off the OO tyres on a lathe, and pressing the RTR centres into new P4 tyres; it's a lot of work, but if you want an accurate wheel for something like a BR Britannia or a 9F, then this is the only credible route.

[David Holman]

As a long time 7mm scale modeller, have more recently had to turn to Gibson wheels for some of my 3' narrow gauge locos as the Slater's range didn't cover my needs. Have found Gibson's to be ok and their service is decent. However, the lack of automatic quartering is a pain, while the wheels are not happy if you have to take them on and off the axles more than a couple of times. I have also found that tyres can come loose from their rims. Both can be fixed with a touch of cyano, but overall they are not as robust as Slaters. Or maybe I am just too heavy handed?

[murrayec]

19 minutes ago, David Holman said:

As a long time 7mm scale modeller, have more recently had to turn to Gibson wheels for some of my 3' narrow gauge locos as the Slater's range didn't cover my needs. Have found Gibson's to be ok and their service is decent. However, the lack of automatic quartering is a pain, while the wheels are not happy if you have to take them on and off the axles more than a couple of times. I have also found that tyres can come loose from their rims. Both can be fixed with a touch of cyano, but overall they are not as robust as Slaters. Or maybe I am just too heavy handed?

I had the same problems with Gibson wheels, so I made a set of axles slightly under size to use while the loco was under construction then on final assembly the correct axles are installed- makes life much easier.

Wonky crank pins can be avoided by using a screw guide when screwing in the crankpins- a thick piece of brass with a drilled clearance hole for the screw to be held perpendicular on the back of the wheel while installing. Drill the hole at the edge of the brass piece if the wheel has a rear boss so it sits flat on the wheel back.

Eoin

[Mayner]

I originally standardised on Sharman wheels for my 21mm gauge locos and then shifted to Gibson (AGW) when Sharman became generally unavailable about 20 years ago. I usually buy direct from AGW (Colin Seymour) usually by phone or message on his answering machine being 12 hrs out of synce with UK, as the majority of specialist component suppliers no longer stock loco wheels.

AGW supply a 1/8" extended axle suitable for 21mm with their Outside Crank sets for locomotives Code 5000. I generally use these "Outside Cranks" as extended axles with AGW wheel sets in 21mm gauge.

The main drawbacks I have found with AGW wheels are (a)driving wheel tyres working loose (remove and secure with Loctite Studlock) (b) AGW steel crankpins shearing off. Substitute 14BA brass nut and bolt as replacement of ideally  Ultrascale crankpins (involves forming a shallow recess in the wheel crankpin boss)

I originally used a B-B of 19.5mm with Sharman Wheels on 21mm gauge track which successfully operated on the MRSI Loughrea Layout (derived from EM standards) but found it necessary to reduce the B-B to 19.3mm when using AGW wheels which have a wider wheel thread than "Sharman B Profile" EM/OO. I found that there was insufficient running clearance between wheel face and splashers on SSM J15, S and Midland Tank using ASW wheels with the B-B set at 19.5mm.  It may be worth considering setting the B-B at 19mm for 21mm gauge locos using AGW wheels assembled from TMD/SSM kits,

I used custom ordered 21mm Gauge Ultrascale wheels for both diesel locos and rolling stock, the Ultrascale wheel system is superior to Gibson on a number of aspects Ultrascale wheel center appears to be moulded into the tyre eliminating risk of tyre working loose. wheel failing, large boss on the inner face of rolling stock wheels eliminating risk of wheel wobbling, superior crank pin system compared to AGW.

TMD/SSM Midland Tank. 

I assembled one of the original kits supplied during the early 80s and more recently on with the replacement N/S chassis.

1. The original kit is supplied with a brass chassis of the same thickness of material as the body with ready formed hornblock cut outs suitable for top hat bearings with spacers suitable for OO & 21mm gauge.

I successfully assembled the original chassis as a compensated chassis using Sharman compensated bearings/bushes (an early form of compensated bearing) sliding directly in the 'hornblock" cut outs forming hornblock guides (to stop the bearings revolving) from scrap brass.

I assembled the chassis as a 'keeper plate" chassis using brass wire and strip both to retain the wheels and represent the brake gear, the brake gear supplied with the kit may have been too fine/delicate for my level of skill and available tools of 40 years ago.

2. Later versions of the kit were supplied with a beam compensated nickel silver chassis in addition to the original brass chassis. The compensated chassis is designed with elongated bearing holes to allow the compensated axles to move vertically, the axles running in top hat bearings soldered to twin compensation beams.

I picked up this version of the kit at a swap meet about 20 years ago and assembled the loco at some stage during the last 5-10 years, a comparison of the two chassis is featured in a 17 May 2018 posting on my Work Bench thread. 

I found it necessary to solder a large diameter washer inside the flange of the top hat bushes to retain the bushes in position, as the flange/head of the bushes supplied with the kit were smaller in diameter than the width of the bearing hold in the chassis.

I was disappointed at the exaggerated bellying of the coupling rods of the revised chassis, and would have preferred to have used the neater rods of the original, but was unable as the coupled wheelbase of the two chassis/sets of rods were different

 

[David Holman]

The last two posts show the difference between what I would call a modelling approach and an engineering one. Clever stuff that we can all learn from.

 I think there is also the element of how often you are building locos. I probably average at most one of two a year and daft though it may seem, lose the mind set in the six months or so between finishing one project and starting the next. Anything cosmetic (bodywork, buildings, scenery etc) is less of a problem because it doesn't have to work, so am endlessly grateful to the likes of Eoin and John for all their practical advice.

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks for all the info and advice - this is a great help! Hopefully useful to others too. 

[Mol_PMB]

Just looking at options for the J26 wheels, as illustrated very nicely here by Ernie:

The optimum dimensions would be:

• Diameter: 4'6" = 18mm (or slightly less as a worn wheel)
• # of spokes: 16
• Crank position: placed between spokes
• Crank throw: 11" = 3.66mm
• Wheel profile: EM

 

The available options that are somewhere close seem to be:

• Alan Gibson 4851N 4' 3" 17.0mm. 14 spoke LNER J94 Class Bevel PB 13" 4.30mm (small but almost within wear allowance, -2 spokes, crank throw too big)
• Sharman SW-L144 4' 3" 14 Spoke Driving Wheel J94 placed between 13" (small but almost within wear allowance, -2 spokes, crank throw too big)
• Alan Gibson 4854W 4’ 6" 18.0mm 14 spoke LSWR Plain PB 9½" 3.17mm  (right diameter, -2 spokes, crank throw a bit small)
• 3mm scale WR1816TT 18mm dia 16 spoke Driving Wheel Set RP25 profile code88 (this looks promising though there isn't as much info on cranks etc)
• Scale Link SW1816DX 18.45mm/16-spoke (this looks promising though there isn't as much info on cranks etc)
• Alan Gibson 4855E 4' 7" 18.5mm 14 spoke LNER J25/J26/J27 Class Plain IL 11" 3.66mm (fractionally too big, -2 spokes, crank in line)
• Sharman SW-S182 4' 7" 15 Spoke Driving Wheel LMS Inline 12" (fractionally too big, -1 spoke, crank in line, crank throw a bit big)
• Ultrascale 4'7" LMS 15 Spoke 11"c/t c.o.s. FOWLER (fractionally too big, -1 spoke, crank in line)
• Alan Gibson 4855 4' 7½" 18.5mm. 15 spoke Midland/LMS Plain IL 12" 4.00mm (fractionally too big, -1 spoke, crank in line, crank throw a bit big)
• Ultrascale 4'71/2" GWR 16 Spoke 10"c/t c.b.s. (fractionally too big, crank throw a bit small)
• Sharman SW-S194 4' 8" 16 Spoke Driving Wheel placed between 13" (too big, crank throw a bit big)

Note: Scale Link SW1816D 18mm/16-spoke driving wheels do not appear to be in stock.

 

Scale Link and 3mm scale wheels are designed to fit on Romford-style square ended axles. 

@commerlad, @Andy Cundick  - Am I right in assuming from your comments that Romford-style square-ended axles for 21mm gauge are not available? 

If so, that rules out those options.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob R]

Paul,

Sent you a couple of emails with Fleabay links.....

 

[Mol_PMB]

6 minutes ago, Rob R said:

Paul,

Sent you a couple of emails with Fleabay links.....

 

Thanks Rob!

[murrayec]

It is possible to lengthen the Romford axles, access to a lathe is the best way, but it can be done without. All axles will have to be installed in horn blocks for it to work as the axle cannot be slid through the bearings when done.

Like Mr Holman style with his Gauge O axles

Chop the axle in half and sleeve it with a turned brass sleeve bored out to a close fit on the axle with allowance for the bearings, size and Loctite together in a V block, if no lathe use KS 5/32'' tube, the internal diameter is almost correct and the Loctite makes up the difference. Use off-cuts of the tube to support the axle ends in the V Block while gluing. Lining up the square ends is the critical bit- a gauge can be made to do this. One can also use a set of wheels to do the lining up but a narrow V Block is required that does not foul the wheels.

The drive axle can be sized by using the drive gear, Scale Link do a wide sleeved gear in their SLGS03 set, if you calculate where the grub screw hits cut this axle so that the screw locks onto one side of the cut axle, for maximum coolness a second grub can be installed to catch the other side of the cut axle. The above sizing gauge should be made deep enough to allow for the gear when lining up the square ends. Put in the grubs after the glue has set and do file a flat on the axles for the grub to land on.

oops! only file a flat on one side for the grub if doing the 'Two-Grub'

Eoin

 

 

 

 

Edited March 18 by murrayec

[commerlad]

4 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Just looking at options for the J26 wheels, as illustrated very nicely here by Ernie:

The optimum dimensions would be:

• Diameter: 4'6" = 18mm (or slightly less as a worn wheel)
• # of spokes: 16
• Crank position: placed between spokes
• Crank throw: 11" = 3.66mm
• Wheel profile: EM

 

 

Scale Link and 3mm scale wheels are designed to fit on Romford-style square ended axles. 

@commerlad, @Andy Cundick  - Am I right in assuming from your comments that Romford-style square-ended axles for 21mm gauge are not available? 

If so, that rules out those options.

 

 

 

 

 

You do need square end axles for Scale Link and 3SMR but as @murrayec has said you can sleeve them if split.

I am aware of 12mm, 14.2mm, 16.5mm, but have not looked for longer. (They may exist though but 21mm is even more obscure than OOn3!)

[Rob R]

You can get S Gauge Romford axles from the SSMRS, (standard gauge 0.884") but that is a bit too much (22.45mm). You can also get EM (18.2mm) axles.

If you had lathe access you could chop two OO gauge axles to make one at 21mm gauge, chop each into 2, turn one down to make a spigot and drill a hole to suit in the other.

Insert a into b with appropriate adhesive, ideally with the square ends held in a jig.

Or drill a hole in each and put a pin in. Many ways to skin the proverbial Feline.

For our electrically powered locos the squares don't have to be line up exactly but they do all need to be the same.

Edited March 18 by Rob R
extras

[Mol_PMB]

Lots of interesting ideas here - thank you all!

i have a friend with a good lathe, I only have a basic mill myself, and I don’t have a dividing head for easily doing square ends myself (I appreciate there are work-arounds but they are more tricky to achieve a consistent size and tolerance). 
So solutions involving machining are possible, but obviously more work than buying standard parts.

[murrayec]

No need for a dividing head, use one of these in your mill;-

www.arceurotrade.co.uk

This unit, the nut and the correct collet mounted in your vice will do the indexing trick on the mill, you will have to do some reference marking to line up the squares when rotating the axle ends......

This collet size is ER25

Eoin

Edited March 18 by murrayec

[David Holman]

Witchcraft! Necromancy! 

Or just magic...

[murrayec]

2 hours ago, David Holman said:

Witchcraft! Necromancy! 

Or just magic...

What we all do here is magic, we bash & cajole atoms into jewellery......

 

Edited March 18 by murrayec