CIE Sleeping Cars

[Mol_PMB]

I was wondering, has anyone researched the CIE sleeping cars, or built a model of one?

I mean this kind of vehicle - the green one (photo from Ernie):

I understand these were used as temporary staff accommodation which could be moved around to cattle fairs and other events where a normally quiet station would have a large influx of traffic and need more staff to deal with it. Most seem to have been converted from 6-wheel coaches, and carried numbers in the 2##A series.

Also potentially of interest are the Permanent Way Department 'ballast vans' which again were staff accommodation, and one also appears in the photo above - the grey and red one. These were numbered in the 248xx or the 845x series and were less numerous, and looked less like carriages.

 

Shall I have a look down this rabbit hole?

[Westcorkrailway]

One of these, 234A has survived into preservation at a private location in West Cork. 

[LNERW1]

58 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

I was wondering, has anyone researched the CIE sleeping cars, or built a model of one?

I mean this kind of vehicle - the green one (photo from Ernie):

I understand these were used as temporary staff accommodation which could be moved around to cattle fairs and other events where a normally quiet station would have a large influx of traffic and need more staff to deal with it. Most seem to have been converted from 6-wheel coaches, and carried numbers in the 2##A series.

Also potentially of interest are the Permanent Way Department 'ballast vans' which again were staff accommodation, and one also appears in the photo above - the grey and red one. These were numbered in the 248xx or the 845x series and were less numerous, and looked less like carriages.

 

Shall I have a look down this rabbit hole?

An actual passenger sleeping car would be interesting. Cork-Waterford-Rosslare-Dublin-Belfast-Derry perhaps? It would require at least one line reopen but I'm sure it'd be worth it.

[jhb171achill]

In terms of making a model, details of one specific one would be needed, as they were generally converted from withdrawn passenger stock. There was at least one, I believe, which had been a horse box! (Probably only had maybe two bunk beds?).

The one above is a former GSWR first class six-wheeler. The thing behind it - I think there were at least two of these. There were also at least two long-wheelbase vans, painted brown even in the grey'n'green era, which i think were originally cattle driver's vans. One was used on the lifting train that was to be seen in West Cork and also Valentia after they closed. Probably Kenmare too.

I remember seeing one in the 1970s somewhere on the Midland, shoved up a siding somewhere, painted green with red ends, as many of those sort of things were. (Livery note; the red quickly faded to either an orangey colour, or a salmony pink). This vehicle was a six-wheeler of indeterminate origin - later research suggested MGWR, but it had the body shape of a GSWR vehicle, and was thus probably a GSR-era rebuild. It had only a few windows. I don't know what became of it.

[GSR 800]

IIRC the MGWR had a specific sleeping carriage for crews. It was avoided at all costs due to an infestation of lice! 

Don't let the bed bugs bite indeed...

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks. 
The reason I ask is that I’ve acquired two GSWR 6-wheel coach kits as part of a job lot, and now trying to find a legitimate use for then in 1960s/70s period!

The loco department seem to have kept some truly ancient vehicles as sleeping accommodation but I don’t think they moved around and many were kept in sheds. The loco department also used old 6-wheelers as tool and mess vans in breakdown trains. Some were loco grey with red ends (often faded), others retained GSR or even GSWR livery! But it’s hard to justify either of those turning up on a branch line. 
 

The traffic department sleeping cars are a bit more plausible. They seem to have been painted in passenger livery in the green era, and some later survivors were repainted in wagon grey. A first look at photos suggests that no two were the same, as they were modified from a variety of coach types and the conversions were all different in detail.

I will try to make a list.

A couple more illustrations from Ernie:

 

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks. 
The reason I ask is that I’ve acquired two GSWR 6-wheel coach kits as part of a job lot, and now trying to find a legitimate use for then in 1960s/70s period!

The loco department seem to have kept some truly ancient vehicles as sleeping accommodation but I don’t think they moved around and many were kept in sheds. The loco department also used old 6-wheelers as tool and mess vans in breakdown trains. Some were loco grey with red ends (often faded), others retained GSR or even GSWR livery! But it’s hard to justify either of those turning up on a branch line. 
.

A couple more illustrations from Ernie:

 

Infairness in the case of 234A and a lot of these. They were rebuild heavily by CIE with only the chassis staying original (in 234s case, WLWR coach 907 build in limerick) where as the rest was much changed 

 

236A and I think 238A were also sleeping wagons 

[Mol_PMB]

Interesting- thanks. That may also explain the great variety of styles. 

[Westcorkrailway]

2 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Interesting- thanks. That may also explain the great variety of styles. 

Again, ask Ray Good tommorow, im Sure he said to me one time he actually slept in one of these in Bantry

[Horsetan]

14 hours ago, LNERW1 said:

An actual passenger sleeping car would be interesting. Cork-Waterford-Rosslare-Dublin-Belfast-Derry perhaps? It would require at least one line reopen but I'm sure it'd be worth it.

I think only the Belmond luxury tourist train would qualify in terms of passenger sleeping cars, given the very leisurely travel time.

[minister_for_hardship]

54 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Again, ask Ray Good tommorow, im Sure he said to me one time he actually slept in one of these in Bantry

He's probably still scratching himself on account of it.

[Mol_PMB]

56 minutes ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Again, ask Ray Good tommorow, im Sure he said to me one time he actually slept in one of these in Bantry

Sounds like he has some fascinating memories. Hopefully you can introduce us? 

[Westcorkrailway]

9 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Sounds like he has some fascinating memories. Hopefully you can introduce us? 

No problem, bring a tape recorder!!!
 

One story I remember him telling myself and @GSWR 90 on the last tour to Killarney was a story of 90 bursting through the buffers at Clonakilty….kept off the books! 

[exciecoachbuilder]

Speaking of beds on railway vehicles, I remember back in the late 1970's when the new ballast plough vans were being fitted out in the carriage shop. That there was a bed base made from plywood fitted in the van for staff? If someone has further information? My claim to fame on the plough van ,was doing some glazing with another guy on just one of the vans. Paul.....

[jhb171achill]

7 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

No problem, bring a tape recorder!!!
 

One story I remember him telling myself and @GSWR 90 on the last tour to Killarney was a story of 90 bursting through the buffers at Clonakilty….kept off the books! 

They must have been made of tissue paper!

[Westcorkrailway]

Just now, jhb171achill said:

They must have been made of tissue paper!

You can imagine…..

[GSWR 90]

On 4/4/2025 at 1:17 PM, exciecoachbuilder said:

Speaking of beds on railway vehicles, I remember back in the late 1970's when the new ballast plough vans were being fitted out in the carriage shop. That there was a bed base made from plywood fitted in the van for staff? If someone has further information? My claim to fame on the plough van ,was doing some glazing with another guy on just one of the vans. Paul.....

Here is the inside of the plough van at Downpatrick, 24852 built 1978. Definitely looks like those two benches were once beds

[exciecoachbuilder]

15 minutes ago, GSWR 90 said:

Here is the inside of the plough van at Downpatrick, 24852 built 1978. Definitely looks like those two benches were once beds

That's them alright, thanks for the photo. That's certainly a flashback. 

[Mol_PMB]

So, I'm back home now and looking through my references and the invaluable IRRS photo archive. Here are some links to 6-wheel sleeping car pictures in the 220-250 number series, and notes on some of the missing numbers where known:

• [220A was a 4-wheel S&T tool van, former carriage]
• 221A was a modified 6-wheel 5-compartment coach, matchboard sides, perhaps one of the first such conversions seen here in 1948: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748466/

• [222A was a crane]
• [223A not yet found]
• 224A was a modified 6-wheel coach, appears to be a former GSWR 4-compartment first, seen here in 1959:
• 
• [225A & 226A not yet found]
• 227A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1963 and on an unknown date: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256772811/

• [228A to 230A not yet found]
• [231A was an odd 4-wheeler with a balcony]
• 232A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1955: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498764576/

• 233A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1964: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251290821/

 

• 234A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, originally WLWR coach 907, seen here in the 1950s, now preserved at a private location: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509192299/

• [235A not yet found]
• 236A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, 3 photos from the 1970s and 1980s: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527643119/ 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509017401/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569603262/

 

• 237A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1957 (on the right): 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501/

• 238A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in the 1950s (4 photos) and again in 1969 (probably opposite sides but maybe modified in the intervening years

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507984227/

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511470303/

• 239A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1976:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570459261/

• [240A was the Wexford/Rosslare breakdown van]
• [241A not yet found]
• [242A was a signal & electrical department tool van]
• [243A to 245A not yet found]
• 246A was a modified 6-wheel coach with 5 compartments, seen here in 1964:

• 247A was a modified 6-wheel coach which appears to have had 6 compartments, seen here in 1957 (on the left), 1968 and 1971: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510456042/

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511516573/

 

 

Would anyone have any more details of the origin of any of these?

 

[Mol_PMB]

This is a diagram, not to scale, showing the former 5-compartment coaches converted to sleeping cars. The arrangement seems to have been reasonably consistent but with subtle variations between coaches. I don't have photos of both sides of all vehicles, but there are enough to show that there were distinctly different window arrangements each side.

The top diagram shows an unmodified 5-compartment coach.

The middle diagram shows the side which retains windows near the ends, but the windows near the middle are blanked. The black windows are present on all vehicles, whilst the coloured ones are more variable and may or may not be present.

The bottom diagram shows the opposite side, which retains windows in the middle but most windows at the ends are blanked. Almost all vehicles are the same on this side, just 233A has one extra window blanked.

In all cases, only one door remains in use on each side. They have all been significantly re-panelled too.

 

247A appears to have started life as a 6-compartment coach. All the photos I've found so far show the same side, which retains windows in the middle but most windows at the ends are blanked, similar in principle to the 5-compartment coaches but of course they are in slightly different places:

 

224A was a former 4-compartment coach and was quite different, retaining its panelling and almost all of its windows, as well as 2 doors remaining usable. I haven't found a photo of the other side. Not much point doing a diagram of this as so little has changed:

 

Now, SSM make kits for 4-compartment and 6-compartment coaches, but not the most common 5-compartment... Worsley works do make a 5-compartment though I'm not sure how the kits compare in style and dimensions.

I'm also not certain that the prototype coaches were all the same length.

[Horsetan]

44 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

....SSM make kits for 4-compartment and 6-compartment coaches, but not the most common 5-compartment... Worsley works do make a 5-compartment though I'm not sure how the kits compare in style and dimensions.

I'm also not certain that the prototype coaches were all the same length.

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