Flying Snails in Holland...

[Garfield]

So, it turns out the Flying Snail wasn't unique to Ireland. Here's a photo of a preserved 1940s Dutch trolley bus wearing one...

 

(Photo: Voogd075 at nl.wikipedia)

[Broithe]

Well spotted. I will be quizzing my Dutch correspondent...

[Garfield]

More photos on Google Images...

 

https://www.google.ie/search?q=ARNHEM+TROLLEYBUSES&client=firefox-a&hs=YQj&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8uqTUdCkIeTE7Abn64Bg&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1608&bih=830#imgrc=J_dgDLFgqERf3M%3A%3BBPpbKHfofJtVoM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%252F2512%252F3918702365_0193040983_z.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252Farthur-a%252F3918702365%252F%3B640%3B480

[Broithe]

They seem to be the other way up to ours..

[Garfield]

They seem to be the other way up to ours..

 

True, although 'reverse' Flying Snails were used on the right-hand side of loco tenders...

[jhb171achill]

I wonder where they got it from, and when? CIE adopted it directly from the Dublin United Tramways Company, who had introduced it about 1941. The DUT based the design on the London Underground "bar and circle" device, still used today - possibly one of the longest running corporate identity logos in the world?

[Garfield]

I wonder where they got it from, and when? CIE adopted it directly from the Dublin United Tramways Company, who had introduced it about 1941. The DUT based the design on the London Underground "bar and circle" device, still used today - possibly one of the longest running corporate identity logos in the world?

 

Well JB, if you ask me they should have kept the Flying Snail... it's a timeless design.

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

Could CIE have copied it from the Dutch

[Broithe]

My Dutch Correspondent only appears on my other Forum every week or so, but he does know his stuff.

 

We'll see what he comes up with.

[jhb171achill]

If they had it in the 1940s, I suppose either the Dutch could have copied it from the DUTC (rather than CIE), but equally the DUTC could have copied it from the Dutch. If the Dutch bus livery turns out to be pre-1941, then the DUTC have directly copied it from the Dutch - thus the original theory about the London Transport origin needs considerable amendment. Could the Dutch have based their design on London, followed by CIE copying it?

 

Either is possible, but the London Transport theory has wide currency.

[Garfield]

The photo is of a trolley bus that ran in the city of Arnhem. According to Wikipedia, the trolley bus network there began operating in 1949...

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Arnhem

 

...Which would suggest they ether copied it from CIÉ, or as JB suggests, a coincidence derived from the London Transport roundel.

[jhb171achill]

That would seem most likely. The story of how DUTC got it is widely quoted by reliable sources; thus it does indeed seem the Dutch copied it from either DUTC or early CIE. Done'n'dusted!

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

If they had it in the 1940s, I suppose either the Dutch could have copied it from the DUTC (rather than CIE), but equally the DUTC could have copied it from the Dutch. If the Dutch bus livery turns out to be pre-1941, then the DUTC have directly copied it from the Dutch - thus the original theory about the London Transport origin needs considerable amendment. Could the Dutch have based their design on London, followed by CIE copying it?

 

Either is possible, but the London Transport theory has wide currency.

 

 

Could Garfield have stumbled upon something here that may see the history books rewritten.

[Garfield]

Could Garfield have stumbled upon something here that may see the history books rewritten.

 

I'm afraid I can't take credit. Details arrived in my email inbox from an acquaintance. JB, you should have mail about it as well...

[Flying Scotsman 4472]

I'm afraid I can't take credit. Details arrived in my email inbox from an acquaintance. .

 

Shhhhhhh Pat say nothing we'll give you the credit anyway

[WRENNEIRE]

Iomchar Atha Cliath

Dublin Transport?

 

[minister_for_hardship]

That was the DUTC version of the snail, think 'iomchar' may be a portmanteau of 'iompair' (transport/transit) and 'car' (car/vehicle) there being no ready made word in Irish for 'tram' or 'tramways'.

 

There were a lot of winged/flying wheels used in Europe (OBB in Austria had a very chunky stylised one) and elsewhere, but the Dutch one is uncannily similar to the Irish 'snail' albeit a bit elongated like the old Lima HO CIE logo.

Edited May 16, 2013 by minister_for_hardship

[Broithe]

My agent has reported and is undertaking further investigations..

 

I have not seen this logo before in our area of Holland (Rotterdam)

It seems to have only been used in Arnhem by the local transport organisation at that time.

The organisation was the GVA (Gemeentelijk Vervoersbedrijf Arnhem)

But it is very difficult to find more info on this matter

 

The first trolleybus used in Arnhem was in 1949

 

There have also been variations on the logo:

 

As seen on the trolleybus:

 

and a more "Modern" variant:

 

I will try to find out more later!

[Garfield]

Cheers for that, Broithe!

 

From those links it's apparent that the logo is based on the CIÉ version, and the Dutch enthusiasts even refer to it as a 'Flying Snail'.

[Broithe]

Cheers for that, Broithe!

 

From those links it's apparent that the logo is based on the CIÉ version, and the Dutch enthusiasts even refer to it as a 'Flying Snail'.

 

No problem. He knows what he's doing on rail-related matters - and he can search effectively in Dutch, which may turn up stuff not readily available to us..

[Weshty]

Iomchar Atha Cliath

Dublin Transport?

 

 

 

 

Lovely!!! I like the gold edging. Very tasty, I'll be updating my transfers.

[jhb171achill]

That's in Head Hunters in Enniskillen. The paint on all those crests is original railway company stuff. I can vouch for the ancestry of the excellent collection in Head Hunters Railway Museum there, which is well worth a look. That particular "snail" was presented to the original owner by the DUT Co. Thus, the paint is one of the few genuine examples of the exact green used by the DUT - and CIE - until the lighter green came into use in 1955.

[jhb171achill]

Interesting! So that confirms it. Maybe the railways of Antarctica will adopt the MGWR coat of arms next! :-)

[Broithe]

My agent is still active in the field..

 

Hello, me again!

 

I have been trying very hard to find the original source of the logo.

But its a bit like the chicken and the egg........

All Dutch sources indicate at least that the logo is identical to the one used in Ireland.

 

The logo was already used before 1949.

During the war almost all trams in Arnhem were distroyed, and they had to start all over.

At this time they decided to change from trams over to trolley buses.

 

The following video tells the history of the trolley buses in Arnhem (sorry about the language )

 

 

At approx. 1:52 you see the logo on the side of a very primitive looking bus.

These (lorry)buses were used just after the war as a stop-gap measure, until the trolley buses could start to run.

These big lorry type buses drove shortly after the war (approx. 1946-1947) until they were replaced by more civilised buses. (As people kept banging their heads on the ceiling when getting on)

These were then at latter replaced by the trolley busses.

 

The "flying snail" logo was also used on signs, as can be seen on the next photo:

 

 

(Note the nice "toothed" edge on top of the sign to prevent vandalism)

[heirflick]

fair play to your agent broithe -good research there!

[Broithe]

fair play to your agent broithe -good research there!

 

There's actually two of them and they're twins - a great aid when working under-cover....

 

[Garfield]

Nice one... make sure to thank him for us, Broithe! It looks like the mystery hasn't been solved yet, so.

[Broithe]

Nice one... make sure to thank him for us, Broithe! It looks like the mystery hasn't been solved yet, so.

 

I have done - and I suspect he's not finished yet......

[Sentinel281]

I know this does not really help any further, but just to add some footage:

 

On Ebay two badges were sold in the last few weeks, also showing the DUTC lettering on it:

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-enamel-badge-/261204690426?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item3cd10345fa&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-cap-badge-/261204710820?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3cd10395a4&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

They both were (wrongly) described as CIE ones.

[minister_for_hardship]

I know this does not really help any further, but just to add some footage:

 

On Ebay two badges were sold in the last few weeks, also showing the DUTC lettering on it:

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-enamel-badge-/261204690426?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item3cd10345fa&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-cap-badge-/261204710820?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3cd10395a4&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

They both were (wrongly) described as CIE ones.

 

The little enamel one is a modern replica, I got the tie pin version of this selling at Fry Model Railway souvenir shop.

[Broithe]

Anybody recognise this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121275343322&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en - I can't find anything anywhere....

[minister_for_hardship]

Its the Bowmakers Bank logo. Probably a customer giveaway item, back around the times before hi-vis vests and those miserable armbands were thought adequate for walking at night.

Edited February 14, 2014 by minister_for_hardship