GSWR 50' open gangwayed coaches

[Colonel]

I was thinking more along the Kleenex line. Normally two ply, but a single layer could work for thickness. Colour another matter though.

[Mol_PMB]

Since starting this thread I have acquired more information, including the GSR 1937 carriage register and GSR / early CIE carriage diagrams. The diagrams include:

• An unnumbered and undated GSR diagram showing the original condition with 72 third class seats. Numbers listed are 833, 834, 835, 836, 837, 839, 840, 841, 842, 843, 844, but apart from 834 and 839 they are all marked with an X, presumably indicating that they no longer conform to this diagram. The diagram also has a crude pencil annotation with two end bays partitioned off and the remaining seating capacity shown as 56, and this is labelled with an almost illegible number which might be 841.
• A GSR diagram numbered 14, amended to show the lavatory conversion with 64 third class seats and 2 lavatories, which has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 3 Jan 1958. The same full list of numbers is shown, but some are struck through and the remaining ones are: 835, 836, 837, 840, 842. There is a note that 841 and 843 were converted to tea cars, and that 837 has 76 third class seats.
• A GSR diagram numbered 70 showing the unique 838 as rebuilt in 1924 with elliptical roof. The drawing has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 5 Oct 1950. It is shown as a tea car with 58 seats and the arrangement of the pantry is shown in detail, as well as the changes to the window arrangement on the pantry side.
• A  diagram (not marked GSR) numbered 71 showing 841 and 843. The drawing has a CIE CME drawing office stamp dated 4 Oct 1950. They are shown as tea cars with 58 seats and the arrangement of the pantry is shown in detail; it is similar but not identical to 838. The window arrangement on the non-pantry side so it is not clear how the windows behind the pantry were altered.
• A crude pencil sketch titled 'Buffet 841' which shows 64 seats and one seating bay at the end partitioned off. 

 

I also some intriging gen on the last train to West Cork on 31 March 1961. The train formation was given in the 'bus substitution railtour' brochure from the West Cork Wanderer trip last month. It was: 2641 - 841 - 1410 - 2660. There are quite a few photos of the last train, but most show it from one end or the other, focusing on the railcars. It is apparent from photos that the intermediates are a Park Royal (1410, one of those recorded as being through-wired for the railcars), and an old arc-roofed bogie coach. The best photo I've found of that vehicle so far is here:

 

It's not very clear, but from what we can see it could well be 841. This is interesting because 841 is not one of the vehicles recorded as being through-wired for the railcars - indeed of this batch of coaches only 838 (with its elliptical roof) is listed as through-wired. As a tea car, 841 would be a good candidate for through-wiring and with this evidence I think it must have been wired. 

 

I have therefore updated the listing of these carriages as follows:

834: Remained basically unchanged throughout its life. Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Withdrawn 1959.

835: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958? Demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964 and converted to departmental stock 540A. 

836: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1963 and converted to departmental stock 463A. Sold to DCDR in the 1980s - restored and still in use.

837: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Possibly modified with lavatory and 76 seats in the 1950s? Withdrawn 1960 and converted to camping coach no.8. Later transferred to departmental stock 530A. Survived at Waterford until 2002, then sold to RPSI and now at Whitehead under restoration.

838: Major rebuild in 1924 when it gained a high elliptical roof and electric lighting. Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Rebuilt again in 1957, still as Tea Car but with only 24 seats. Through-wired for operation with AEC railcars. Withdrawn 1965 and converted to departmental stock 522A. 

839: Remained basically unchanged throughout its life. Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Withdrawn 1960.

840: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964.

841: Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date after 1924, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. Through-wired for operation with AEC railcars. The 1961 register lists it as a primary 56-seat 2nd, no catering facilities. Possibly the former pantry area was removed but no seats reinstated. Withdrawn 1963.

842: Listed with the nominal 72 seats in 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers, 2 lavatories fitted around 1958?, demoted to secondary stock by 1961 when it is shown with 64 seats and 2 lavatories, fitted for Radio Train. Withdrawn 1964.

843: Converted to 3rd class Tea Car at unknown date after 1924, listed with 58 seats in the 1937, 1946 and 1953 registers. The 1961 register lists it as a primary 56-seat 2nd, no catering facilities. Withdrawn 1964.

 

Although I now have more information on the Tea Car interior layout, good photographs of these are very hard to find and I still don't have enough enough information to know what the pantry side window arrangement was like.

[Mol_PMB]

I think I've now completed the artwork for the underframe and bogies, which also incorporates some parts for the seating and some more optional bits for the tea car variant.

I've also made a couple of tweaks to the roof on the body etch to faciliate the tea car variant:

I think these are now ready to be sent for etching. However, I'll give it a day or two and do a final check as I often find that's wise.

[Horsetan]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

I think I've now completed the artwork for the underframe and bogies, which also incorporates some parts for the seating and some more optional bits for the tea car variant.

I've also made a couple of tweaks to the roof on the body etch to faciliate the tea car variant:

I think these are now ready to be sent for etching. However, I'll give it a day or two and do a final check as I often find that's wise.

If that can build either of the preserved pair of coaches, count me in for an etch set!

[Mol_PMB]

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

If that can build either of the preserved pair of coaches, count me in for an etch set!

That is the intention. It should be buildable as the basic third, the lavatory third or the tea car. I thought it would be up your street!

[Horsetan]

1 minute ago, Mol_PMB said:

That is the intention. It should be buildable as the basic third, the lavatory third or the tea car. I thought it would be up your street!

Anything that can recreate the preserved stock gets a "yes" from me

[Mol_PMB]

It has turned out to be a good choice of prototype - with three main variants in normal service all across the GSR/CIE, a couple of different departmental examples and two vehicles preserved. At least one was through-wired as a railcar intermediate and another was converted to a camping coach - which was placed on the W&T so even a modeller of that isolated system could justify one! 

[Horsetan]

38 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

It has turned out to be a good choice of prototype - with three main variants in normal service all across the GSR/CIE, a couple of different departmental examples and two vehicles preserved. At least one was through-wired as a railcar intermediate and another was converted to a camping coach - which was placed on the W&T so even a modeller of that isolated system could justify one! 

I'm just having a look at the bare bogie frames and trying to work out where to modify them for CSB springs....

[Mol_PMB]

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

I'm just having a look at the bare bogie frames and trying to work out where to modify them for CSB springs....

They are the Brassmasters type of bogie - with springy wires across the headstocks.

https://www.brassmasters.co.uk/bogie_CUs.htm

 

[Mol_PMB]

On @Westcorkrailway's recommendation I have increased my collection of obsolete media formats by purchasing some DVDs from Clonakilty!

Why, well there are some shots of 841, as a tea car, in the railcar set on the last day of services on the West Cork lines. There's lots of other nice footage too including colour film of 559, the J26 I'm building, and a C class on the rails just 3 miles from my house in Manchester!

But back to the GSWR coach theme, as ever the old film wasn't such good quality as one might hope, but there is something to be seen in the footage that adds to the image of the train at Crossbarry that I posted above.

As a reminder, the link below is the only good photo I have found showing one of these tea cars (in this case 843), but the diagram of 841 and 843 (available from the IRRS) definitely helps too.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565

So what do the rather rubbish screen captures from the DVD tell us? Well it looks like the normal roof vents are only over one of the two saloons in the coach, but the roof furniture in the middle of the roof is busy all along, and there seems to be a central water tank at the other end of the roof. Some of those features match what we can see on the photo of 843 (style and location of roof tank) and 843 also had extra 'Flettner' rotating vents on the centreline of the roof which are marked on the diagram and probably present on 841 too (especially with the normal vents being removed). The photo of 843 also shows extra vents on the sides above the windows at the pantty end, but none of the photos of 841 are clear enough to show whether these were fitted.

          

All I've done to the etch to enable this is to make adjustments to the holes in the roof, with more of them half-etched than holes right through. I hope that by the time I have got the etches made, I might have found some better photos of 841!

I'm wondering whether to wait until after my trip to the IRRS archives at the end of the month, before getting the etches made. It would be frustrating to find new information just too late to change the artwork.

[Horsetan]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

... at the pantty end...

Distracted by thoughts of the Missus? Or possibly turning into Pat Mustard? 

[Mol_PMB]

Sorry, that should have been Pantry. 
I’m not sure they had the facilities to be considered a Kitchen. 

[Colin R]

I would be interested in two kits

Colin

[Mol_PMB]

Many thanks Colin. Early days yet, I haven’t ordered the trial etches yet. 
In due course I’ll illustrate the build on here (as I did with the E401 class) to give people an idea of the build process as well as the finished result. 

[Mol_PMB]

My plan is to order the etches next week, once I've been to the IRRS Archives to check I'm not missing any crucial information on these.

I have also been studying the Irish Railfans News recently, which has confirmed that it was 841 in the last passenger train on the West Cork. I'm hoping that if I produce etches for 841 and 2660, then IRM will complete the set with the Park Royal (which I can renumber as 1410) and the AEC railcar 2641 (fingers crossed we get one eventually). That would be a nice characterful train!

If I'm interpreting the old photos and film correctly, I think that on that day in 1961, 2641 and 841 were still in medium/dark green, while 2660 and 1410 were freshly painted in light green. I'm still trying to fully understand the early 1950s liveries but I am gradually building up contemporary evidence to the different styles and colours. Roof and end colours have turned out to be more interesting than I had first thought...

[Mol_PMB]

Something for the weekend?

 

[GSR 800]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Something for the weekend?

 

Looking very tasty indeed!

[Mol_PMB]

I've started building the underframe, which should be suitable for a selection of different GSWR 50' coaches. Here's the progress so far:

[Mol_PMB]

These coaches originally had rather elaborate cast iron seat frames, which I thought I would try to replicate in the etch. 

These are small excerpts of IRRS drawing and photo to show the seat detail:

I've just made the first one - a bit fiddly but it went together well:

There's quite a lot of these to do...

[Mol_PMB]

I've done enough for half a carriage, and now I need a drink! You'll probably never be able to see these once the carriage is assembled...

More tomorrow, I need to decide whether to tackle the bogies or the body once I've finished the seats.

[Mol_PMB]

This morning I made the rest of the seats and then I formed and detailed the sides. 

 

The next task is the ends. 

[Mol_PMB]

The ends are coming together and here’s a trial fit of the sides and ends together:

 

Hopefully I’ll get the end details completed today.

Roof and bogies still to tackle, plus various odds and sods. 

[Mol_PMB]

The end detailing is now complete. These little bits always take ages! 

[Mol_PMB]

Rolling the roof went OK but making the roof tanks for the lavatories turned out to be more of a faff than I had expected. 

I got there in the end, though not quite in the planned sequence.

Hopefully I'll have some time tomorrow for more roof detailing. 

 

I've also discovered a small dimensional error on the roof fixing cross-beams, which are about 0.8mm too long. I've bodged the ones I've got but will have to consider whether to modify the artwork for future production. 

 

[Georgeconna]

There is something beautiful about brasswork when its done like this. 

the roof holes, Were they pre done?

[GSWR 90]

Great work. That’s an old photo of 836 at the start of this thread by the way – this is how it looks now 

 

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

There is something beautiful about brasswork when its done like this. 

the roof holes, Were they pre done?

Because I’m trying to cater for several variants, many of the roof holes are half-etched (underneath) so the position is marked and you can drill or cut the ones needed for the chosen prototype. 

If modelling the carriages as-built, or 836 as preserved, there are no roof tanks to worry about. And no need to cut out the rectangular holes. 
The lavatory and tea car variants have roof tanks - two different arrangements - as well as some alternative vent and lamp positions. 

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, GSWR 90 said:

Great work. That’s an old photo of 836 at the start of this thread by the way – this is how it looks now 

 

Many thanks - looks superb!

Has anyone seen the RPSI’s 837 recently? It would be good to add an updated photo of that on this thread. 

[Mol_PMB]

This IRRS (Bob Clements) photo dated 1933 shows one of these coaches in the GSR's brown and cream livery, first in the train:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508723596/

The second coach is probably another of the same type (or very similar), but in a plainer livery.

 

There's also one on the Kennelly Archive at Tralee in 1956, it crops up in the background of a wedding photo:

https://www.kennellyarchive.com/media/4a72d095-c83d-41af-9593-a89e997a7ead

 

I have not yet found a photo of one of these in black and orange / BnT although it's possible as most survived until 1963-65.

Some of the equivalent full brakes (similar underframe and body profile) did carry the later livery and lasted into the early 1970s. There were two variants. 

Vehicles 1114, 1115, 1116, 1117 had a guard's compartment and duckets, and external sliding doors: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52069133025

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40130035371

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52049825068

Vehicles 849 and 850 were just parcel vans, with no guard's facilities. Built with two sets of hinged double doors each side, at least one of them later had a third set of doors added:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511597515/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54777522947

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5961789232

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51294806017

Looking ahead, it would be reasonably straightforward to produce an alternative body etch for one of these variants.

Edited 12 hours ago by Mol_PMB

[GSWR 90]

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Many thanks - looks superb!

Has anyone seen the RPSI’s 837 recently? It would be good to add an updated photo of that on this thread. 

This is the inside – I think the far end is going to be a buffet counter, apparently they plan to turn it into a café

[Mol_PMB]

4 minutes ago, GSWR 90 said:

This is the inside – I think the far end is going to be a buffet counter, apparently they plan to turn it into a café

Excellent - many thanks. It's good to see the interior structure so clearly. A cafe seems an appropriate use since 838, 841 and 843 were converted to tea cars.

I'm still a bit short on hard evidence of the arrangement of the tea cars - the information I have suggests that all three were different, and there are few good photos. In due course I'll try to summarise what I do know in this thread. I have made some provision for modelling 841 or 843 from the kit. 

[Mol_PMB]

I have made some more progress on the roof furniture but I have just made the frustrating discovery that I don't have enough gas lamp castings in stock. 

Literally hundreds of torpedo vents but only 8 gas lamps. So I need to place another order with Wizard...

Anyway, with the partially-dressed roof trial fitted, it's starting to look more like a carriage:

 

These vehicles were built with very large torpedo vents and some retained those until the end. But some had them replaced with smaller vents, which were mounted on square plates over the old large holes. So I've had fun plating over the holes, drilling through again, and fitting some small torpedo vents, to represent my prototype 840:

Thanks again to Ernie for this photo!

[Mol_PMB]

I'll start writing about the three Tea Car conversions. Information is incomplete. I will consider each one individually, and I'll start with 838 because that was the first one converted and there's a bit more info about it.

838 was substantially rebuilt as a tea car in 1924, and at the same time the body received a higher elliptical roof and was partly re-panelled in the style of that time. Therefore it cannot easily be built from my etches, but it's useful to look at it anyway.

As built, these coaches had the saloon divided into two parts - of 5 bays and 4 bays. 838 had its pantry and serving counter installed at the 4-bay end. The plan view shown on a GSR drawing with a 1950 CIE stamp on it was like this:

The saloon at the other end seated 40, and the end with the counter had 18 seats with tables, giving a total of 58 as noted on the diagram. Note that neither of the external doors at the pantry end are shown on the drawing, and the position of one of them is blocked by a table.

The 1946 and 1953 CIE carriages listing have 838 as a tea car with 58 seats.

This IRRS photo dated 1947 shows the side with the passageway past the pantry (i.e. the pantry is at the left-hand end of the photo). The external door at that end does not have a class designation (which would be normal for a catering car) but there's no obvious indication that it is sealed up:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509061459/

Clear photos of the other side are harder to find, but here's one from 1953 thanks to @Westcorkrailway

And here's one from the IRRS dated 1952:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507783362

And here's another photo of the pantry side in an early IRRS Journal:

Note that these photos show long ventilators above the windows, which may have been considered necessary in the 1924 rebuild because these coaches didn't have many droplights for ventilation. 

There is also a diagram in the IRRS archives which shows the pantry side:

These seem reasonably consistent - the small window beside the door was panelled over, and the large window was reduced in size. But the photos appear to show two small windows side by side (one possibly with a droplight) whereas the diagram only shows one small window. 

 

From the Catering Department file in the IRRS archives, I made the following notes on 838:

838    Tea Car    31/10/1950    Hotels Dept proposed to release when new diners/buffets built
838    Tea Car    22/09/1952    Diesel buffet car, Waterford route, electric lighting, 15 seats, proposed for scrapping
838    Tea Car    01/12/1952    unsatisfactory in diesel trains. Proposed for scrap
838    Tea Car    25/02/1953    Already converted for diesel trains, in service Dublin-Waterford
838    Tea Car    17/08/1954    Has now been returned to traffic dept, no longer a catering car
838    Tea Car    04/10/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept
838    Tea Car    04/11/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept. Fitted for diesel rail cars

Note that the second reference listed it has having 15 seats. It was the catering department practice to only count the 'covers', i.e. seats at tables served from the counter. The diagram shows 18 seats at tables; perhaps some of these had been removed (which may have enabled the external doors to be re-comissioned).

Elsewhere in the catering department file there are notes about the importance of fitting racks for trays in the railcar buffets. This is because the catering cars were expected to serve passengers throughout the train using trays - particularly the first class punters in the railcars. So maybe a tray rack took up some space and required seats to be removed?

 

It's interesting that 838 was proposed for scrapping in 1952, but once it had been through-wired to work with the railcars (as an interim measure owing to delays on the new buffet cars) it became more useful. After it was no longer required as a Tea Car it was handed back to the traffic department in 1954, but it wasn't scrapped at that stage.

Indeed, the 1961 CIE carriage register lists 838 as having been rebuilt again in 1957, with only 24 seats. I haven't found any late 1950s photos of it. The vehicle was finally withdrawn and scrapped in 1965.

 

Now, you won't easily build 838 from my etches. But it's much better documented than the other two, so when I come to write about 841 and 843 I'll be referring back to this post. 

[Mol_PMB]

Next I'll look at 843.

841 and 843 remained much closer to their original condition and can reasonably be built from my etches with a bit of improvisation.

In the IRRS archives there's a diagram 71 which is formally labelled for both 841 and 843. It's a different style to the 1924 diagram of 838, but does not appear to be dated. Again it carries a CIE stamp dated 1950 but the drawing itself looks older. 

The layout is similar, but not the same as, 838. The pantry was again installed at the 4-bay end, but the shape of the internal partitions was a bit different to 838. The diagram shows both external doors at this end, but one of them is blocked by a table. A cupboard is shown adjacent to the opposite door - possibly for trays?

The circular items shown on the centreline of the coach are identified as Flettner ventilators - the rotating vents sometimes seen on the roofs of old buses and caravans.

The side elevation on this diagram shows the side without the pantry, and does not indicate any external modifications compared to the original vehicle.

Fortunately we have an excellent photo of 843 at Sligo in 1947 in the IRRS archives, although it also shows the non-pantry side:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565/

Note here the vents above the large windows (as on 838) but only on the pantry-end saloon. And the large, central roof tank to supply water to the pantry.

Also the gas lamp mounted above the corridor past the pantry. There may have been another over the pantry itself but I haven't found any photos of the other side.

Looking inside, we can see the sliding door to the pantry and an internal bar across the large window. It also looks like the windows in the 4-bay end have been fitted with roller blinds instead of curtains at the unmodified end of the carriage. 

On the centreline of the roof, the Flettner ventilators can just be seen, and appear to match the positions shown on the diagram.

 

The 1946 and 1953 CIE carriages listing have 843 as a tea car with 58 seats.

 

From the Catering Department file in the IRRS archives, I made the following notes on 843:

843    Tea Car    Nov-47    conversion to electric lighting authorised, but not done
843    Tea Car    31/10/1950    Hotels Dept proposed to release when new diners/buffets built
843    Tea Car    22/09/1952    In fleet, gas lighting, 16 seats, proposed for scrapping
843    Tea Car    26/11/1952    Proposed for AEC through-wiring but this to be cancelled and 33M, 34M, 37M and 876 to be converted instead. (this decision was changed and it did run in railcar trains for a short period)
843    Tea Car    01/12/1952    unsatisfactory in diesel trains. Proposed for scrap
843    Tea Car    17/08/1954    Has now been returned to traffic dept, no longer a catering car
843    Tea Car    04/10/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept
843    Tea Car    04/11/1954    Already handed back to traffic dept

Note that the second reference listed it has having 16 seats. It was the catering department practice to only count the 'covers', i.e. seats at tables served from the counter. The diagram shows 18 seats at tables; perhaps some of these had been removed (which may have enabled the external doors to be re-commissioned).

 

In the 1961 carriage register, 843 is listed as a 56-seat standard class carriage. The hand-back to the traffic department in 1954 had not resulted in its withdrawal, but the listing with only 56 seats suggests that the pantry had not been converted back into seating accommodation. The vehicle was scrapped in 1964. 

 

However, the IRRS has three photos of 843 at Cork circa 1964, not long before it was withdrawn. There's no question about its identity as we can read the number, and the presence of a coach in slightly grubby BnT livery tends to support the date. These photos suggest that 843 had a significant rebuild which removed all traces of the pantry and roof tanks, and returned it close to original condition but with smaller roof ventilators. I have to say that this amount of work for a 60-year-old carriage seems unlikely, but that's what the photographic evidence suggests.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511484089/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511166071/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511484084

So, that's 843.

841 may be even more complicated...