O&K Sugar Factory Locos

[GSWR 90]

Aside from the ones that are on Flickr and the Paul Johnston (transport of delight) SmugMugmugmug site, does anyone have any photos of the CSE O&K locos in their own collections? Alternatively, do you know of any groups/people who might be able to help me with this? And I don't mean photos of them at Downpatrick 

I'm particularly interested in photos of the Mallow and Tuam locos, as there are a fair number of photos online of the Thurles ones and I don't think I've ever seen a Tuam one. 

Thanks!

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:04 by GSWR 90

[cheesy_peas]

Try North Cork Railways on Facebook, there's a few on there.

[GSWR 90]

Thanks, but I've seen all those ones before unfortunately! 

[Irishswissernie]

I have uploaded a couple at Tuam today.

Ind 1955-04-21 Tuam CSE, 2 RMC83500 Cas25185.

Ind 1955-04-21  Tuam CSE 1 + 3 RMC83505 Cas25186.

 

[Irishswissernie]

I have found another negative but don't know the location , I think its probably at Thurles Beet Factory.

 

[GSWR 90]

Amazing, I can’t thank you enough for these! Great to have photos of all three of them, and really interesting to see the positioning of the number which is something I’ve always wondered about.
 

In the third photo, the numbers are in the same position as the Tuam locos (each factory put the numbers on differently) so the location might be Tuam.

[Irishswissernie]

There is a pipe sticking up with a knob on the end, on the inside of the tank on the third photo which corresponds with the pipe on the loco on the first photograph and its also the same number 2. The loco in the shed at Tuam nearest the camera has the pipe/ in a different position and is missing its cab plus I think the plates and number are in a lower position on the tank side. Casserley noted they were 1 and 3 so probably 1.

 

Edited Monday at 07:34 by Irishswissernie

[cheesy_peas]

1 hour ago, Irishswissernie said:

There is a pipe sticking up with a knob on the end, on the inside of the tank on the third photo which corresponds with the pipe on the loco on the first photograph and its also the same number 2. The loco in the shed at Tuam nearest the camera has the pipe/ in a different position and is missing its cab plus I think the plates and number are in a lower position on the tank side. Casserley noted they were 1 and 3 so probably 1.

 

Hand hold for clambering up to access tank filler. Presume they got removed when tank removal and repairs were carried out and just shoved on in a different place. Perhaps it was less liable to get snagged on something placed on the inside?

Edited Monday at 08:41 by cheesy_peas

[Killian Keane]

Someone told me recently these were paid for in cattle, is that true?

[Galteemore]

1 hour ago, Killian Keane said:

Someone told me recently these were paid for in cattle, is that true?

Yes. Apparently a trade deal on barter terms 

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Killian Keane said:

Someone told me recently these were paid for in cattle, is that true?

43 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes. Apparently a trade deal on barter terms 

 

Not slang for a few sacks full of shillings..?

[Westcorkrailway]

16 minutes ago, Broithe said:

Not slang for a few sacks full of shillings..?

This was 1930s trade war Ireland. No money and lots of cattle! 

[Jonathan Allen]

This on the IRRS Flickr site: JMR_CSE_1_Thurles_10_Nov_1951 (2) | [Photographer: John Maca… | Flickr JMR_CSE_1_Thurles_10_Nov_1951 | [Photographer: John Macartne… | Flickr

 

Membership required to view.

Edited Monday at 16:36 by Jonathan Allen

[GSWR 90]

18 hours ago, Jonathan Allen said:

This on the IRRS Flickr site: JMR_CSE_1_Thurles_10_Nov_1951 (2) | [Photographer: John Maca… | Flickr JMR_CSE_1_Thurles_10_Nov_1951 | [Photographer: John Macartne… | Flickr

 

Membership required to view.

Thank you. There are a surprising number of photos of them on the IRRS site – if you search their account for "CSE" you'll find a good few of them, but I'm always on the hunt for more! There are good pictures of them at Dalkey as well.

22 hours ago, Killian Keane said:

Someone told me recently these were paid for in cattle, is that true?

Yes, as mentioned above, it was because of the Anglo-Irish trade war. Here is a very simple explanation:

On foot of the Land Wars in the 1870s, Westminster passed the Irish Land Acts which allowed tenant farmers to buy their land with very long-term loans from the British Government. Large amounts of money were involved, with the proportion of farmers who were landowners increasing from 3% to 97% in about 50 years. After the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the funds were paid by farmers to the Free State, who in turn paid them to the British Government. When Fianna Fáil came to power in 1932, the Free State refused to pay back the loans to Britain, took a generally protectionist trade policy in the context of the Great Depression, and sought leverage for constitutional change (which eventually resulted in the 1937 Bunreacht which we still have today). This resulted in a trade war between the Free State and Britain, with each country targeting the other's key exports: high tariffs on agricultural goods (e.g. beef) going from Ireland to Britain, and high tariffs on machinery (e.g. steam engines) going from Britain to Ireland. This created a perfect storm in Ireland that led to the Free State using cows to buy locos from Germany: a shortage of cash, a glut of cattle, a need to develop local industry (i.e. build new sugar factories), and tariffs on British goods.

I'm not an expert so I apologise if any of that is wrong; I'm very open to correction.

It's funny how a series of political crises long ago resulted in these unique-looking locos coming to Ireland, but they have continued to be reliable and easy to work on almost 100 years later. They are a testament to the people who designed and built them, and they now also serve as important living reminders of the Irish sugar industry.

Edited Tuesday at 11:20 by GSWR 90

[Galteemore]

Nicely put. Another big issue in the mix - as well as Northern Ireland and its economy - was RIC pensions. For some unaccountable reason DeV objected to using Eire funds to pay ex-RIC men (inc my great grandfather)resident in the 26 counties… eventually Westminster agreed to pay. One worthy individual managed to accumulate pensions from Eire, the Dublin metropolitan police and MI5, who gallantly paid him despite him being an IRA double agent! 

Edited Monday at 23:15 by Galteemore

[Colonel]

You can only admire such tales of resourcefulness!

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, GSWR 90 said:

Yes, as mentioned above, it was because of the Anglo-Irish trade war. Here is a very simple explanation:

On foot of the Land Wars in the 1870s, Westminster passed the Irish Land Acts which allowed tenant farmers to buy their land with very long-term loans from the British Government. Large amounts of money were involved, with the proportion of farmers who were landowners increasing from 3% to 97% in about 50 years. After the Anglo-Irish Treaty, the funds were paid by farmers to the Free State, who in turn paid them to the British Government. When Fianna Fáil came to power in 1932, the Free State refused to pay back the loans to Britain, took a generally protectionist trade policy in the context of the Great Depression, and sought leverage for constitutional change (which eventually resulted in the 1937 Bunreacht which we still have today). This resulted in a trade war between the Free State and Britain, with each country targeting the other's key exports: high tariffs on agricultural goods (e.g. beef) going from Ireland to Britain, and high tariffs on machinery (e.g. steam engines) going from Britain to Ireland. This created a perfect storm in Ireland that led to the Free State using cows to buy locos from Germany: a shortage of cash, a glut of cattle, a need to develop local industry (i.e. build new sugar factories), and tariffs on British goods.

I'm not an expert so I apologise if I got any of that is wrong; I'm very open to correction.

It's funny how a series of political crises long ago resulted in these unique-looking locos coming to Ireland, but they have continued to be reliable and easy to work on almost 100 years later. They are a testament to the people who designed and built them, and they now also serve as important living reminders of the Irish sugar industry.

The Land Acts and the founding of the Free State and ensuring change in land ownership had a significant impact on the fathers side of the family, my grandfather the son of a Scottish gamekeeper who worked for the Trench family in County Galway. My grandmother from an Galway family who became landowners as a result of the Land Act, my Grandfather struggled to make a living as a gamekeeper/farm manager as the old order changed after WW1/Anglo-Irish Treaty as the Land Comission continued to buy out the large estates for division into small holdings and many of the Anglo-Irish Gentry returned to the United Kingdom.

Ironically my Grandfather found some stability in the 1930s when a prominent member of the Free State establishment & relative began to acquire his own country estates. Interestingly when my Dublin based parents, aunts and uncles visited our Co Galway farming relatives for weddings and funerals during the 60s they remarked how prosperous they had all become compared to their city relatives during what was considered a prosperous time.

A bit like todays popularist prolitics while Dev's policy of witholding the annuties had unexpected consequence: During the "Economic War" the Free State siezed property and evicted farmers from their land for the non-payment of Land Annuities to the Free State Government.  The obligation for Irish farmers to pay the Annuties continued only to the Free State Government instead of Westminister.

I think the good will created towards Germany following the foundation of the Free State contributed to the success of the Shannon Scheme, the foundation of the Sugar Industry and ultimately the establishment of German owned manufacturing plants in Ireland since the late 50s (Leibherr (Cranes) 1958), and more recently the pharmaceutical, chemical medical device and automotive engineering sectors, a far cry from when Ireland only exported livestock and people.