3D from Hatton's

[WRENNEIRE]

Check out Hattons Website

Now stocking 3D printers and accessories

 

http://www.ehattons.com/71035/MakerBot_MP04948_Replicator_2_desktop_3D_printer/StockDetail.aspx

[BosKonay]

Wow!!

[heirflick]

are you thinking of investing steven?

[BosKonay]

Lol. Perhaps in the next gen of the tech. Right now the commercially available printers are not quite ready I think.

[murrayec]

Hi

 

I agree there BosKonay, though the MakerBot is a good entry level. One thing I remember is the MakerBot had a much higher price tag in the past! I wonder what happened?

 

murrayec

[BosKonay]

Prices have been dropping steadily as the tech becomes more mainstream. The makerbot replicator itself is in its fifth generation. With digitizers now available you can literally 'photocopy' 3d objects.

 

At the rate the tech is advancing it will likely match or surpass most if not all current small scale production routes within 3 years.

[murrayec]

Yes

 

I saw a youtube vid of a digitizer working- a person stands in front and is digitised, then sometime later a action man size print is handed to you. Though it was slightly out of shape but stunning to see it's at this level.

 

murrayec

[Dunluce Castle]

I ain't too keen on the finish that 3d printing gives, sometimes it can be very hard to make it look right.

[murrayec]

Yes Nelson

 

It's not there yet,

 

purple has a printer set up and printed this;- http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/2165-Desktop-3D-printer?p=33913&viewfull=1#post33913

 

Also on this thread are examples of buses printed, I saw them in the flesh at the blackrock show and they need a lot of filling and sanding.

 

murrayec

[Glenderg]

Never mind the finish, it takes hours of work to produce the 3d model properly, so the end cost isnt just the price of the PLA filament. Brass and resin will be around for a long time yet.

[murrayec]

Yes Glenderg

 

There is the main point- constructing the 3d model, not all can do this and probably only a very few. What good is a 3d printer for modelling engines and wagons if one cannot computer model it

 

Even digitized info will need editing, calling on computer 3d modelling skills.

 

murrayec

[purple]

Calibration is key to good 3D quality printing - I've yet to see a printer that is plug and play and it is unlikely you will for a while.

 

That MakerBot is very expensive for what it is - I'd strongly suggest purchasing one from a European or Chinese company so you get it cheaper.

 

3D modelling is a skill that needs to be learnt, but it is no worse than learning to solder or use a lathe, you can get good enough at it quite quickly and then it is just practice. I have a background in programming computer graphics so I forget to some people it is completely confusing.

[murrayec]

Hi purple

 

How's it going with your machine, have you anything to show us? The other thread came to an end!

 

I trained people in 3d modelling, most had 2d drawing skills to start with and it took them about a year to hone the skill. Key thing is been able to see the thing in 3d in the head and then translate it into a 3d model on the computer with the sometimes non intuitive tools of the program their using.

 

murrayec

[purple]

Key thing is been able to see the thing in 3d in the head and then translate it into a 3d model on the computer

 

That basically sums up most of the problem people have with 3D Modelling.

 

The machine is working still, I just haven't been doing much modelling or printing lately. Have the printer set up really nicely and intend to try and make a few railway related things soon .

[BosKonay]

There is the main point- constructing the 3d model, not all can do this and probably only a very few. What good is a 3d printer for modelling engines and wagons if one cannot computer model it

 

There will be a market for printable files - imagine it - download a file for an "X" Wagon, print off your rake...

[purple]

@BosKonay - Is this not what ShapeWays already do?

 

I'm working on building a delta arm printer at the moment. I was going to make some buffer stops in OpenSCAD too. I'll share that file on here when I am done.

[murrayec]

There will be a market for printable files - imagine it - download a file for an "X" Wagon, print off your rake...

 

It is a great idea, but it will have problems- the main one is how can a producer of a 3d model control how many prints are made from the 3d file! CJ Ward quote for producing a 3d model, if I remember correct its about £300.00 to do this and then they will quote for printing each model.

 

ShapeWays buzz is printing for you from a file and you pay for each print- copyright control by holding onto the file, just issuing prints.

 

Some clever programmer will come up with an interface program that a purchaser of the file can only print what's paid for and then the file is deleted or locked.

 

murrayec

[murrayec]

Hi purple

 

Delta arm printer- cool

 

Looking forward to seeing the buffer stops

 

murrayec

[BosKonay]

Why would the file producer care? If they are paid for the file / license in the first place?

[Glenderg]

Some clever programmer will come up with an interface program that a purchaser of the file can only print what's paid for and then the file is deleted or locked.

 

murrayec

 

I had the same thoughts Eoin. The word is "control" and the only way to have it, is to buy the machinery and produce and sell oneself. Once a 3D file is out in the wild, it's out of your control.

[Glenderg]

Why would the file producer care? If they are paid for the file / license in the first place?

 

Cos the licence payer can share it about with his mates, or produce 1 or 40 or 400, and the licensor gets rid.

[murrayec]

Why would the file producer care? If they are paid for the file / license in the first place?

 

BosKonay

 

If I was commissioned to do a 3d model of say an A Class, the charge would be in the region of €xxx.xx, as Glenderg points out- if I issue the file to someone for printing, its out in the free world, I have no more control of it. Anyone can print from it, even people that will charge for prints- that's not right, I should be entitled to some fee but I cannot 'control' that any more.

 

murrayec

[BosKonay]

I see your point - a bit like royalties per print, etc - same dilemma the music / film / tv industries have been facing for the last decade.

 

But I guess my point is that perhaps there will be 'free' files and 'commissioned' files - and home users / small manufacturers willing to pay to have files created, to in turn mass produce...

Do the designers of tooling for traditional models earn royalties? Or just a once off fee to produce the cad / tooling?

[Warbonnet]

I see your point - a bit like royalties per print, etc - same dilemma the music / film / tv industries have been facing for the last decade.

 

But I guess my point is that perhaps there will be 'free' files and 'commissioned' files - and home users / small manufacturers willing to pay to have files created, to in turn mass produce...

Do the designers of tooling for traditional models earn royalties? Or just a once off fee to produce the cad / tooling?

 

As far as I know places like Bachmann and Hornby have or at least had their own draughtsman to do the design from drawings, photos etc. I believe Heljan hire in people with expertise in the loco they're modelling and get them to add their thoughts to the cad their designer draws up. Explains why the fidelity of their products is improving in the last few years.

[murrayec]

Yes Fran

 

With 3d solid modelling, EDM, and CNC machines, the model industry has come on incredibly. They now have the facility to proof the proposed model in 3d computer models before the drawings go out to the manufactures EDM machine shop. Also with EDM it is quite easy to re-do the tooling after the drawing info is updated if changes are made. They also use high end 3d printers for proofing.

 

The royalties are paid on the tooling manufacture, based on the number of units the tools will be used to make, and the manufacture holds the tools for future runs. The brunt of the charge for manufacturing a model is on the tooling, usually up in the hundreds of thousands of pounds for the like of Hornby & Bachman models.

 

Of course with the big boys- all things are negotiable

 

BosKonay

 

Design companies who specialise in tool design do get royalties. It is a huge industry- injection moulding is used in nearly every product for sale! I looked at getting a few books on the subject and was stunned to find the cost in the region of £500.00 to a couple of grand!

 

murrayec

[murrayec]

Oh and...

 

There are free models available, though you will find on the more complex ones- they have errors! I have not seen any passable model train models for free yet. Other thing on these free models is read the fine print, its like 3d modelling software or google- prepare or get your model you do not own the rights! the site you downloaded it from or the software you use does!

 

murrayec

[Mayner]

I had an interesting get together with a group of 3D Modellers and kit designers on the weekend. The majority are either professional designers who produce 3D models or CAD work for a living, others have considerable design and drafting experience with access to professional design software such as Solidworks at around $17k a copy.

 

While there is some satisfaction with seeing your models on other peoples layouts, I don't think any of us would be happy with a manufacturer producing a pirate copy of one of our designs.

 

A lot of he interesting stuff is happening around using Shapeway models as patterns or lost-wax castings rather than traditional pattern making. The work involved little different from cleaning up or machining an iron casting.

[Horsetan]

...While there is some satisfaction with seeing your models on other peoples layouts, I don't think any of us would be happy with a manufacturer producing a pirate copy of one of our designs....

 

Piracy was a major factor behind the demise of Kemilway in the early 1980s (someone cloned their etched footbridge kit) and even today there are one or two kits on the market which have artwork that is strikingly similar in parts to what Kemilway did in the 1970s.

[purple]

The cloning and piracy problem will always be there in one form or another, it is unavoidable. There are clever and sensible ways around this though.

 

Restrictive DRM that install horribly invasive software similar to viruses on people's computing machines does nobody any favours and annoys legit users without really stopping piracy. Some software (eg Adobe) and music (eg Spotify) companies have moved to subscription models recently.

 

I guess with 3D printing model files you could set something up like Spotify for 3D printing - you can print as much as you like for €20 a month but the software downloads the G-Code for your specific printer and print parameters rather than the 3D model file itself. So the slicing is done on the server, the user never gets the source 3D model file.

[Horsetan]

...Restrictive DRM that install horribly invasive software similar to viruses on people's computing machines does nobody any favours and annoys legit users without really stopping piracy. Some software (eg Adobe) and music (eg Spotify) companies have moved to subscription models recently.....

 

Off-topic, but your observation above did make me wonder why the creators of Macromedia Flash Player, etc. would not cater for things like i-Pads and Windows Phones.

[murrayec]

On 3d model copyright control;-

 

I somehow feel that the big boys would not be happy with a facility to download the source code for printing by subscription. Suddenly their would be and incredible amount of models available to print off and I reckon they would be based off existing RTR models or the big boys would believe so. This is when power takes over, a bit like what the music industry has gone-n-going thru!

 

Microsoft and Mac promote their own media players and have resisted attempts by other media player manufactures getting onto their platforms- this is an example of the 'power'

 

murrayec

[Mayner]

On 3d model copyright control;-

 

I somehow feel that the big boys would not be happy with a facility to download the source code for printing by subscription. Suddenly their would be and incredible amount of models available to print off and I reckon they would be based off existing RTR models or the big boys would believe so. This is when power takes over, a bit like what the music industry has gone-n-going thru!

 

Microsoft and Mac promote their own media players and have resisted attempts by other media player manufactures getting onto their platforms- this is an example of the 'power'

 

murrayec

 

 

Possibly leading to this sort of thing. http://www.3news.co.nz/Megauploads-Kim-Schmitz-arrested-in-Auckland-site-shut-down/tabid/412/articleID/240007/Default.aspx On one hand Kim Schmitz is seen as a champion of freedom of expression and personal privacy, on the other a pirate and a racketeer.

[Glenderg]

Possibly leading to this sort of thing. http://www.3news.co.nz/Megauploads-Kim-Schmitz-arrested-in-Auckland-site-shut-down/tabid/412/articleID/240007/Default.aspx On one hand Kim Schmitz is seen as a champion of freedom of expression and personal privacy, on the other a pirate and a racketeer.

 

Ha ha! Hadn't heard of aul "Kim Dotcom" for a while...

[purple]

Off-topic, but your observation above did make me wonder why the creators of Macromedia Flash Player, etc. would not cater for things like i-Pads and Windows Phones.

 

This is more to do with corporate silliness than anything else. You can run Flash Apps in iOS using AIR and Flex (http://flex.apache.org/) which is now Open Source, although not yet fully cross platform.