CIE Compartment Cars - What type of coaches?

[Noel]

As a child I remember travelling on CIE coaches with six seater compartments (circa 1964-73), mainly the Galway line, but I think also on the Killarney/Tralee line.

 

Q - What type of coaches might these have been? Where they Laminates pre Park Royal, Park Royal, or Cravens? My Memory is a bit vague, but I don't think they were Cravens because I remember the sides and ends met at sharp right angles unlike the slightly rounded cravens. The doors were at each end of the carriage, rather than into each compartment which had internal sliding doors to the corridor on one side of the coach.

[Ben]

They where CIE built Laminates introduced in 1954 I travelled on these on the Limerick junction to Limerick service .I even Recall been hauled by a 101 sulzer. There is one at dunsandle

Edited August 30, 2014 by Ben

[josefstadt]

The laminates dated from the mid to late 1950s and were all open coaches, not compartments. During the early 1950s CIÉ built a number of series of side corridor compartment coaches, both standard class and composite class varieties. If you remember travelling in six-seat compartments then you were probably travelling in a declassified first class section of a former composite. The standard class compartments had eight seats whereas those in first class had only six. The number series of the various series were: Standard Class = 1339-50 (7 x 8-seat compartments), 1351-55 (7 x 8), 1372-78 (7 x 8); Composite Class = 2124-29 (1st 3 x 6 + Std 4 x 8), 2130-36 (4 x 6 + 3 x 8), 2137-61 (4 x 6 + 3 x 8). During 1961/62 a further 8 composite coaches of a different internal design went into service. 2172-79 had three 6-seat first class compartments and seats for 28 standard class passengers in an open saloon.

[Noel]

They where CIE built Laminates introduced in 1954 I travelled on these on the Limerick junction to Limerick service .I even Recall been hauled by a 101 sulzer. There is one at dunsandle

 

Thanks Ben. Do you know if they were a CIE design or a modified LMS/BR coach? They look very like LMS cars. I wonder if any of our LMS cars might lend themselves to basic conversion and repainting in early 60s CIE black and tan. I presume they were hauled in the 1960s by 001, 121, 141 and 181 loco's.

 

Would either of these LMS coaches lend themselves to conversion to CIE Laminate coaches?

 

LMS coronation style corridor coach - Stanier?

 

LMS corridor coach

Edited August 30, 2014 by Noel

[Noel]

The laminates dated from the mid to late 1950s and were all open coaches, not compartments. During the early 1950s CIÉ built a number of series of side corridor compartment coaches, both standard class and composite class varieties. If you remember travelling in six-seat compartments then you were probably travelling in a declassified first class section of a former composite. The standard class compartments had eight seats whereas those in first class had only six. The number series of the various series were: Standard Class = 1339-50 (7 x 8-seat compartments), 1351-55 (7 x 8), 1372-78 (7 x 8); Composite Class = 2124-29 (1st 3 x 6 + Std 4 x 8), 2130-36 (4 x 6 + 3 x 8), 2137-61 (4 x 6 + 3 x 8). During 1961/62 a further 8 composite coaches of a different internal design went into service. 2172-79 had three 6-seat first class compartments and seats for 28 standard class passengers in an open saloon.

 

Thanks josefstadt. They could have been 8 seaters, and now that I think of it probably were. So were the ones I described travelling on laminates, or metal bodies?

 

I wonder if this was the type: http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Bredincomp.shtml

Edited August 30, 2014 by Noel

[aclass007]

Sorry to hijack your thread, Noel, but I have a very similar question regarding corridor compartment coaches. My question is what coaches were used on the Ballina branch in the late 70's, early 80's? All I remember is it was two carriages... one was an open coach, and the other was a corridor compartment. I assume there was also a van, but I don't remember anything about it. I do remember they were hauled by an 001 class. The branch train worked all the way to Claremorris back then, with no stop at Manulla.

[DiveController]

Maybe Murphy's models will do a run of RTRs - BIG HINT (Paddy Murphy, are you listening here?)

[aclass007]

During 1961/62 a further 8 composite coaches of a different internal design went into service. 2172-79 had three 6-seat first class compartments and seats for 28 standard class passengers in an open saloon.

 

Reading this, I am now wondering if it was one of these which was used on the Ballina branch, along with a van......

[Mayner]

A 1953 built Brake Standard 1904 and Laminate Standard 1442 appears to have been the ‘official” Ballina coaches in the 70s and early 80s, both were fitted with storage heaters so the train could be operated without a heating van.

 

Earlier some C class diesels were fitted with ETH equipment for use with a handful of early GSR composites fitted with electric heating.

 

 

 

Although similar in general appearance most early CIE coaches were slightly longer and had different window arrangements to the LMS Stanier stock. Rather than carve up an expensive Bachmann or Hornby model I have designed brass overlay sides "shrunk to fit" the inexpensive Dapol Stanier composite http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/3482-JM-Design-Coach-Sides-amp-TPO-kit

Edited August 30, 2014 by Mayner

[snapper]

Maybe Murphy's models will do a run of RTRs - BIG HINT (Paddy Murphy, are you listening here?)

 

Mr Murphy doesn't need any more ideas on how to take my money

[aclass007]

A 1953 built Brake Standard 1904 and Laminate Standard 1442 appears to have been the ‘official” Ballina coaches in the 70s and early 80s, both were fitted with storage heaters so the train could be operated without a heating van.

 

Earlier some C class diesels were fitted with ETH equipment for use with a handful of early GSR composites fitted with electric heating .

 

Thanks for that, John! From memory, there were only the two coaches, so the storage heaters would account for the lack of a van.

[StevieB]

if you search online for Ballina branch train you will find a photo comprising 127, one of the 1952/1954 build CKs (still with 1st class branding), one of the 1958 build SOs and a four wheel van, or is it the Ballina to Lmerick train?

Stephen

[aclass007]

if you search online for Ballina branch train you will find a photo comprising 127, one of the 1952/1954 build CKs (still with 1st class branding), one of the 1958 build SOs and a four wheel van, or is it the Ballina to Lmerick train?

Stephen

 

Yes, it's the Ballina, Co. Mayo branch... but I can't find the photo you mention. I'll keep trying!

[snapper]

this one?

 

[StevieB]

No, this one.

 

 

Shame I don't know how to make the link live.

 

Stephen

[jhb171achill]

The CIE laminates were all derivitaves of the GSR designs introduced 1933-7. Early CIE builds (1950-4) were very much like them. None were LMS or BR, though similar to the former.

 

The livery the GSR used on these was almost exactly the same as the LMS, with same lining pattern.

[StevieB]

I made the final comment - Shame I don't know how to make the link live - based upon how it looked before posting, not quite how I expected it to be. Still, it worked.

 

Stephen

[josefstadt]

Noel, the coaches you remember travelling in were steel panelled coaches (i.e. steel panels on a timber frame, commonly referred to in the media as 'wooden bodied coaches') not laminates. The SSM coach you link to is a model of a GSR-built Bredin-designed composite class coach. The vehicles built by CIÉ up to the introduction of the Park Royals (i.e. 1339 - 1378) were based on these coaches and were sometimes referred to as 'Bredins', although the CIÉ design was a development of the GSR design, the main difference being n increase in the carriage length from 60' 0" to 61' 6". The laminates, which came after the Park Royals were not based on the GSR Bredin stock but were a development of the Park Royals designed vehicles, being of the wider 10' 2" width. The principal differences between the laminates and the Park Royals were a smoother outline and the 10' 2" width being carried through to the ends of the vehicles.

[aclass007]

I made the final comment - Shame I don't know how to make the link live - based upon how it looked before posting, not quite how I expected it to be. Still, it worked.

 

Stephen

 

Yes, it worked! Do you know if either of those coaches was a corridor compartment?

[josefstadt]

Yes, it worked! Do you know if either of those coaches was a corridor compartment?

 

The first coach was a side corridor compartment coach, either one of the 1952-built series 2130-36 or the 1954-build series 2137-61. The second coach looks like one of the 1958-built open standards from the series 1449-96.

[aclass007]

The first coach was a side corridor compartment coach, either one of the 1952-built series 2130-36 or the 1954-build series 2137-61. The second coach looks like one of the 1958-built open standards from the series 1449-96.

 

Excellent! So, there's a good chance that it was these coaches that would have been used in the late 70's, early 80's? Could both of them be used without a van?

[josefstadt]

Excellent! So, there's a good chance that it was these coaches that would have been used in the late 70's, early 80's? Could both of them be used without a van?

 

Because neither of the two coaches was a brake/standard, or a brake/first, a van would have been needed. And, because a brake van was needed then it would have been, outside the summer season, a steam heating van. As mentioned above the normal vehicles for the Ballina branch train were 1904 and 1442. Both of these were fitted with storage heaters and therefore could be used without a heating van, the requirement for a brake van being fulfilled by brake/standard 1904. It is possible, as has been suggested above, that the train in the photo was not the Ballina branch train but was instead the Ballina-Limerick train.

[aclass007]

Because neither of the two coaches was a brake/standard, or a brake/first, a van would have been needed. And, because a brake van was needed then it would have been, outside the summer season, a steam heating van. As mentioned above the normal vehicles for the Ballina branch train were 1904 and 1442. Both of these were fitted with storage heaters and therefore could be used without a heating van, the requirement for a brake van being fulfilled by brake/standard 1904. It is possible, as has been suggested above, that the train in the photo was not the Ballina branch train but was instead the Ballina-Limerick train.

 

My memory is of just two coaches, with no van. One coach was certainly a corridor compartment, because we used to travel in that. But! My memory has been proven to be wrong in the past, so there may well have been a van.........

[aclass007]

The photo is of the Ballina branch, as the caption below it reads.... CIE Bo-Bo 127 (GM-built, 950 hp) headsnorth from Manulla Junction with an afternoon passenger train in July 1971.

[josefstadt]

The photo is of the Ballina branch, as the caption below it reads.... CIE Bo-Bo 127 (GM-built, 950 hp) headsnorth from Manulla Junction with an afternoon passenger train in July 1971.

 

There is no doubt that the photo was taken on the branch, but the question is what srevice was photographed. If you scroll down to the first comment under the photo's caption you will see that part of Loose Coupled's contribution includes: '... 121s were the staple diet on the Ballina road and despite how attractive 127 looks here with her ex Limerick passenger ...' (my emphasis). So it would seem that 1904 and 1442 (both opens) without van were on the branch train (Claremorris-Ballina), while the photographed set (including a side-corridor compartment coach and an open coach) with a van was on the Limerick to Ballina service. You could have travelled on this set between Claremorris and Ballina and, if it were during the summer season, the open coach might have been replaced with a brake / standard, thereby giving the impression of two coaches without a van..

[Junctionmad]

Noel, the coaches you remember travelling in were steel panelled coaches (i.e. steel panels on a timber frame, commonly referred to in the media as 'wooden bodied coaches') not laminates. The SSM coach you link to is a model of a GSR-built Bredin-designed composite class coach. The vehicles built by CIÉ up to the introduction of the Park Royals (i.e. 1339 - 1378) were based on these coaches and were sometimes referred to as 'Bredins', although the CIÉ design was a development of the GSR design, the main difference being n increase in the carriage length from 60' 0" to 61' 6". The laminates, which came after the Park Royals were not based on the GSR Bredin stock but were a development of the Park Royals designed vehicles, being of the wider 10' 2" width. The principal differences between the laminates and the Park Royals were a smoother outline and the 10' 2" width being carried through to the ends of the vehicles.

 

The laminated came after the park royals. ? I taught it was the other way round , was it not lam->park royal -> craven

[aclass007]

There is no doubt that the photo was taken on the branch, but the question is what srevice was photographed. If you scroll down to the first comment under the photo's caption you will see that part of Loose Coupled's contribution includes: '... 121s were the staple diet on the Ballina road and despite how attractive 127 looks here with her ex Limerick passenger ...' (my emphasis). So it would seem that 1904 and 1442 (both opens) without van were on the branch train (Claremorris-Ballina), while the photographed set (including a side-corridor compartment coach and an open coach) with a van was on the Limerick to Ballina service. You could have travelled on this set between Claremorris and Ballina and, if it were during the summer season, the open coach might have been replaced with a brake / standard, thereby giving the impression of two coaches without a van..

 

Yes, I see the comment now. That does suggest the train in the photo is indeed from Limerick. I'm pretty sure the train I was on only worked the branch. I have vague memories of it reversing away from the platform to allow the Westport train in to pick us up. I actually travelled a number of years in the late 70's, early 80's time frame and the corridor compartment was present for a number of those years, if not indeed all of them.

Just as I type this it has dawned on me... wouldn't the Ballina to Limerick passenger trains have ceased to operate by the time in question? (late 70's, early 80's)

Edited September 3, 2014 by aclass007

[josefstadt]

The Limerick-Ballina services had indeed ceased on 3 April 1976. So during the late 70s / early 80s it would have been the branch train that you were on.

[josefstadt]

Junctionmad, the sequence for standard class coaches was 'Bredins', then Park Royals, then Laminates and then Cravens.

[aclass007]

Another possibility is that I travelled on both sets over the years... Maybe 1904 and 1442 on some occasions, which would account for my memory of there being no van....... and maybe a set similar to the one pictured on the train from Limerick on other occasions, which would account for the corridor compartment.

If only cameras were as commonplace back then.... .................. or if only ttc0169 was a little bit older....

Edited September 4, 2014 by aclass007

[Noel]

This is great info guys. Any idea which corridor compartment coaches might have been used on the Dublin Amiens Street to Galway line in the 1962-1970 era? Bredins, PR, or Laminates?

[josefstadt]

If only cameras were as commonplace back then....

 

Oh, I've wished that so many times. I went on a two week rambler all around the CIÉ system back in 1971, but as a secondary school student could only afford the ticket and two rolls of film (24 exp) for the trip. Such a shame - so much to photograph but so little film. Now, if I'd had a digital camera .............

 

.................. or if only ttc0169 was a little bit older...

I don't know if ttc will thank you for that , but maybe he knows someone who could enlighten us!

[josefstadt]

This is great info guys. Any idea which corridor compartment coaches might have been used on the Dublin Amiens Street to Galway line in the 1962-1970 era? Bredins, PR, or Laminates?

 

Noel, all side-corridor compartment coaches were Bredins. The Park Royals, Laminates, Cravens etc were all centre-corridor open coaches. The only compartment stock to enter service after the introduction of the Park Royals was a series of 8 composites built in 1961/62 which had three 6-seat first class compartments and a 28-seat open saloon for standard class passengers. After that time the only compartment coaches which entered traffic were a number of rebuilt coaches which had originally been compartment stock - for example the 3201-12 series Brake Standard GSVs, introduced 1977, which were rebuilds from compartment stock in the 1339-50 and 1351-55 series.

[aclass007]

Oh, I've wished that so many times. I went on a two week rambler all around the CIÉ system back in 1971, but as a secondary school student could only afford the ticket and two rolls of film (24 exp) for the trip. Such a shame - so much to photograph but so little film. Now, if I'd had a digital camera .............

 

Indeed, but on the other hand, if you still possess those 24 photos, they are probably worth a lot more in every sense than the hundreds of photos you could take today on the system with a digital camera....

[jhb171achill]

Like all main lines (and secondary) the stock used on the Galway line in the sixties was a complete mix of Park Royals, Laminates (of various varieties; remember, not all were alike), Cravens and Bredins. The odd wooden coach would be in there to pre-1965 or so, and one six wheel wooden full brake of GSWR origin was also to be seen. Trains would typically have four or six wheeled "tin vans" as produced by Mayner.

[aclass007]

Here's an image of the Ballina branch train during a loco change over, from '86. Can anyone identify the coaches? Are they 1904 and 1442? There's certainly no van...

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CIE-018-Ballina-1986-Eire-Rail-Photo-/271585175964?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3f3bbce99c