irish P4,21mm, advice on loco conversion, track gauges

[pewky]

HI

I was wondering if there is anyone among the forum members who models in Irish P4 (21 mm).

 

What I look for is:

 

1) a lot of advise

2) RTR rolling stock conversion: Can we keep the original wheels or do they have to be replaced, if so what ref (Gibbson or?)

Same question for the axles

3) Where can we find a 21 mm track gauge?

4) What is the sleepers width?

5) Is it worth joining the Scalefour Society?

 

Hope that anyone could answer

 

happy modelling

 

Luc

[RedRich]

HI

I was wondering if there is anyone among the forum members who models in Irish P4 (21 mm).

 

What I look for is:

 

1) a lot of advise

2) RTR rolling stock conversion: Can we keep the original wheels or do they have to be replaced, if so what ref (Gibbson or?)

Same question for the axles

3) Where can we find a 21 mm track gauge?

4) What is the sleepers width?

5) Is it worth joining the Scalefour Society?

 

Hope that anyone could answer

 

happy modelling

 

Luc

 

Hi Luc, if you are going to model 21mm you have 2 choices, do you want to work to S4 standards where the wheels and track are an exact scale, or a less severe standard of 21mm akin to Em gauge where you can use more tolerable wheels with a more generous flange thickness. I would recommend compensating all wagons, coaches, and steam locomotives. Diesel locos don't need to be compensated but that doesn't mean that some modellers have not done it. Carriage Compensation Units CCU's are available from Dart Castings under the MJT range and they can also be used for bogie wagon stock as well as coaches as they come in different wheelbases. 2 and 3 axle vehicles would require etched W irons or inside bearings. You will need 28mm pin point axles for the wider gauge, Keen Maygib and Alan Gibson produce wheels that would suit all vehicles. Branclines produce wheelsets with 28mm pin point axles. The Scalefour Stores seem to be out of stock on Alan Gibson 28mm pin point axles at the moment. Ultrascale will provide wheels and 28mm pin point axles on request but there would be a waiting period for these.

 

Track and Back to back gauges can be purchased from the Scalefour stores and you have to be a member to use this service. I have measured sleepers on the area of the network that I am modelling and they tend to measure 8ft 6 inch's to 8ft 8 inch's on wooden sleepers. Concrete sleepers can be bought from C&L Finescale and Peco produce some concrete panels also. Peco produce packs of pandrol clips for flat bottom rail but they are a bit overscale. I am using P4 Track Co concrete sleeper panels stretched for the correct gauge as they are manufactured for 18.83mm modellers. The P4 Track Co and C&L Finescale produce all the materials you would need for building track except correct gauges for 21mm. If you want to avail of track and rail filing jigs as well as all the other gauges you would need to join the Scalefour Society. Please feel free Luc to ask any questions as there are a few of us that are modelling 21mm and we will always be glad to answer any questions.

 

Rich,

[pewky]

Hi Rich and thank you,

 

I was concerned that the sleepers available for P4 would be a bit too short for a 21 mm track gauge, but for a 8ft 6'' length a 32mm length sleeper should be OK, however I presumed that prior the 60's the sleepers used would have been a bit longer. I think that the P4 std length is 34 mm (?) for a sleeper so they should be Ok.

 

I still have a lot to consider but I will certainly move to P4 for my irish modelling in a mid term. I do not like the look of the "of the shelf" OO track anymore. I believe that a hand build track will look much better and it is doable. So if I start build my track I may as well model at 21mm. The conversion of the rolling stock is the biggest concern though.

 

Luc

[Broithe]

Some info here - http://website.lineone.net/~sjohnson40/21mm%20Gauge.html - if you haven't already seen it..

[Weshty]

Studio Scale Models produce a 21mm Wagon Compensation kit (Rocking W-Irons). They are €5.50 per set/unit, which includes pinpoint bearings and wire for the rocking unit.

[RedRich]

Studio Scale Models produce a 21mm Wagon Compensation kit (Rocking W-Irons). They are €5.50 per set/unit, which includes pinpoint bearings and wire for the rocking unit.

 

Apologies for not mentioning them in my post Des. I have seen them in operation and they produce flawless running.

 

Rich,

[Weshty]

No bother at all Rich. I may look at producing a 21mm bogie equivalent for use with cravens etc. as well.

[Joe Keegan]

Hi Luc

 

I have a set of track gauges and a back to back suitable for 21mm unused and surplus to requirements.

 

You have them for the price I paid for plus postage.If you are interested you pm me.

 

There are a couple of 21mm layouts in Dublin to be seen. As I don't know your location or where in the world you are , this may be of no use to you to see these layouts in person.

 

If you want to go the P4 route join the Scalefour Society. If want finescale only , join EMGS. Both societies have shops and send goods to Ireland.

 

Richie's post is very informative and has given you a lot of good advice.

John Mayne is another excellent Guru of 21mm.

 

I converted a 141 to P4 21mm recently in under an hour using John Mayne's method of using spacers inside the bogie.

 

Best in your new adventure.

 

Regards

 

Joe

Edited June 22, 2012 by Joe Keegan

[Mayner]

Joe

 

My ego bubble has swollen a Guru indeed I have visions of the followers of true gauge making their way to Hamilton seeking Enlightment only to find like Dorothy that its only smoke and mirrors .

 

The decision to work in 21mm rather than stick with OO is really a matter of how you want to spend your time and the amount of space you have available.

 

It will take considerably longer to build a simple layout in 21mm than EM or S4 and even longer still than in OO where a surprising amount can be achieved in a very short space of time.

 

Track can be built with C&L or Protofour Track Co components, or more traditional ply or copper clad sleeper methods, with pracctice a point can be built in about 2 Hours.

 

While some companies produce ready made crossing Vs and switch blades, they are easy enough to file from rail, the EM Gauge Society produces a really usefull filing jig, but its only really suitable for bullhead rail.

 

Iain Rices books on Finescale Track and building track with copper clad sleepers are essential refrence guides.

 

The S4 & EM Gauge Society members receive manuals that basically covers everything from Baseboard construction to operation which is worth the cost of membership alone.

 

Exactoscale probably produce the best wheel sets in the World well worth the expense and wait, Gibson wheels are less expenssive and readily available and Jackson do very good EM/OO profile wagoncoach wheelsets.

 

Exactoscale will supply 21mm wheel sets to order with 28mm pin point axles or plain axles for locos. My local supplier Northyard produce a 28mm S Scale axle, metric bolts, gearboxes and other usefull components postage from NZ is relatively inexpensive compared with the UK and US. http://northyard.co.nz/.

 

I am currently designing a small range of kits suitabe for 21mm or OO Gauge based around the Northyard axle.

 

John

[RedRich]

No bother at all Rich. I may look at producing a 21mm bogie equivalent for use with cravens etc. as well.

 

Are we talking about something along the lines of the bogies that Bill Bedford produces Des, where it is a sprung bogie as opposed to a compensated bogie as produced by MJT. Something designed and produced definitively for MM Cravens and MK11's would be a God send.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Joe

 

My ego bubble has swollen a Guru indeed I have visions of the followers of true gauge making their way to Hamilton seeking Enlightment only to find like Dorothy that its only smoke and mirrors .

 

The decision to work in 21mm rather than stick with OO is really a matter of how you want to spend your time and the amount of space you have available.

 

It will take considerably longer to build a simple layout in 21mm than EM or S4 and even longer still than in OO where a surprising amount can be achieved in a very short space of time.

 

Track can be built with C&L or Protofour Track Co components, or more traditional ply or copper clad sleeper methods, with pracctice a point can be built in about 2 Hours.

 

While some companies produce ready made crossing Vs and switch blades, they are easy enough to file from rail, the EM Gauge Society produces a really usefull filing jig, but its only really suitable for bullhead rail.

 

Iain Rices books on Finescale Track and building track with copper clad sleepers are essential refrence guides.

 

The S4 & EM Gauge Society members receive manuals that basically covers everything from Baseboard construction to operation which is worth the cost of membership alone.

 

Exactoscale probably produce the best wheel sets in the World well worth the expense and wait, Gibson wheels are less expenssive and readily available and Jackson do very good EM/OO profile wagoncoach wheelsets.

 

Exactoscale will supply 21mm wheel sets to order with 28mm pin point axles or plain axles for locos. My local supplier Northyard produce a 28mm S Scale axle, metric bolts, gearboxes and other usefull components postage from NZ is relatively inexpensive compared with the UK and US. http://northyard.co.nz/.

 

I am currently designing a small range of kits suitabe for 21mm or OO Gauge based around the Northyard axle.

 

John

 

John I think it's fair to say that you are the Daddy of 21mm on this forum. I had no idea that P4 Track Co produced axles in 28mm to order, I will have to investigate further. Their pin point axles are a work of art and their wheels are steel which is a bonus as I am using steel bullhead and flat bottom rail from the same company.

 

Thanks for the northyard link John it looks very interesting.

 

Rich,

[RedRich]

Some info here - http://website.lineone.net/~sjohnson40/21mm%20Gauge.html - if you haven't already seen it..

 

I wonder did Steve ever get around to building that 21mm layout Jim, as it looked promising.

 

Rich,

[Mayner]

I wonder did Steve ever get around to building that 21mm layout Jim, as it looked promising.

 

Rich,

 

Steve layouts are mentioned on the Leamington & Warwick club website http://www.lwmrs.co.uk/CMS/index.php/members-layouts.

 

His stock used to show up regulary at the Banbury & Warwick exhibitions quite a contrast to the usual BR and the Big Four.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion he built a modern image 21mm layout which appeared in one of the English magazines in the 1980s, which used widened SMP track and a mixture of MIR& Q Kits and converted rtr.

 

Dave Malone has published a number of articles on 21mm gauge modelling.

 

1. Modelling Irish Railways to P4 Standards Practical Model Railways Dec 1984 which provides a usefull over view.

2. A series of articles in "Model Railway Digest" in the 1990s including track, signalling, rolling stock.

 

The digest is available from Mainly Trains http://www.mainlytrains.co.uk/acatalog/4mm.html.

 

John

[Weshty]

Are we talking about something along the lines of the bogies that Bill Bedford produces Des, where it is a sprung bogie as opposed to a compensated bogie as produced by MJT. Something designed and produced definitively for MM Cravens and MK11's would be a God send.

 

Rich,

 

Hi Rich, probably a simplified 21mm bogie along the lines of what Comet do at the moment. Longtitudinal, but no transverse compensation.

[pewky]

Dear all,

 

Thank you very much for all your good advice.

 

I have not taken any decision yet. The only thing that any new project will not be for a near future, and it looks like the amount of space I will have available for me will be limited (baseboard 3ft X 1ft max to be able to work comfortably) that's why I could then justify to do sth a bit more detailed and more prototypical.

 

In the main time I will certainly joined the scalefour society and maybe the EM as well.

 

thanks again

 

Luc

[islandbridgejct]

Hi Luc,

 

I'm probably about 6 months ahead of you on the trackwork side of P4. I've just started posting it on the workbench, under "gswr 101" if you're interested. It might save you from some of the learning curve I'm on. (On the other hand, probably not - nothing I read prepared me.)

 

Alan

[Horsetan]

Just stumbled across this thread for my first post.

 

I already model to S4/18.83 standards, so 21mm gauge is merely an extension - let Templot be your friend if no ready-drawn templates exist. I sort of fell into 5' 3" (and 3') after spending some time in Ireland (Kildare, Clare, Mayo and Donegal), as well as being allowed to help operate Adavoyle Junction at the 2000 Chatham show. I'll also slip in a gratuitous Father Ted reference due to my adoption of Clare as a spiritual home :

 

 

 

It has taken until now to get hold of my first-ever 5'3" engine, though; eBay provided an untouched SSM/TMD kit for the GNRI "S" 4-4-0, for just 26 quid, with extra thanks to Des Sullivan at SSM for providing updated instructions! Could it be the start of the slippery slope? Broad gauge axles might be a problem - not everyone makes 28mm pinpoints, and loco plain axles are another matter entirely......

[Warbonnet]

Welcome Horsetan, enjoy your postings on RMWeb, you must have enough kits stored away to see you through to your 90s!

[Horsetan]

.... you must have enough kits stored away to see you through to your 90s!

 

Yes those would be my pension fund.....

[skinner75]

Don't know if you have seen this article on New Irish Lines website:

http://newirishlines.org/2009/09/28/converting-the-murphy-bachmann-141-class-diesel-to-21mm-gauge/

 

Hope this helps!

[Horsetan]

Don't know if you have seen this article on New Irish Lines website:

http://newirishlines.org/2009/09/28/converting-the-murphy-bachmann-141-class-diesel-to-21mm-gauge/

 

Seen that, thanks.

[RedRich]

Welcome aboard Horsetan I recognize you myself from RMweb. I have Templot myself and it is amazing once you get your head around it. I am in the planing stages of building a 21mm S4 model of Clonmel in the 2000's to present. I have amassed a shed load of P4 track co products and Portsdown Models jigs for switches and crossings so I should be kept busy for a while.

 

The SSM kit when built is a beautiful model and I look forward to seeing your progress. Nice shot by the way of the Parish house on Craggy Island.

 

Rich,

[Garfield]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2511[/ATTACH]

 

Welcome aboard Horsetan... I was actually in Ted's house for a cup of tea earlier this summer!

[Mayner]

Hi Horsetan

 

Good luck with the S Class I have built 2 with a good can motor and a decent gearbox they build into a powerfull sure footed loco.

 

Ultrascale http://ultrascale.com/ will supply high quality S4 wheelsets to order for 21mm gauge both plain and pinpoint axle, 6-8 week delivery more expensive but far superior to Aland Gibson.

 

My local supplier Northyard http://northyard.co.nz/catalogue.pdf will supply a 28mm SN3.5 pin point axle which is suitable for use with Gibson and Maygib wagon and coach wheels.

[Horsetan]

Welcome aboard Horsetan... I was actually in Ted's house for a cup of tea earlier this summer!

 

When I went there in 2003, the lovely cup o' tea service had not been introduced and the Macormack family were keeping everyone out!

 

Back then, nobody had quite realised the Celtic Tiger was walking on quicksand either.

 

Hi Horsetan

 

Good luck with the S Class I have built 2 with a good can motor and a decent gearbox they build into a powerful sure-footed loco.

 

Ultrascale http://ultrascale.com/ will supply high quality S4 wheelsets to order for 21mm gauge both plain and pinpoint axle, 6-8 week delivery more expensive but far superior to Alan Gibson.....

 

AGW is the only source of P4-profile wheels appropriate for the "S"; Ultrascale has no driving wheels that are close, but they do make an extra-long driving axle (actually intended for outside frame engines) which could be trimmed, as well as lengthened bogie and tender axles. Also, waiting time is now 16 weeks , not eight.

 

I have a drawer filled with coreless RG4 motors, so will use one on the "S". I am a big fan of bevel-and-spur / contrate-and-pinion drives, so will never use worm gears if I can possibly avoid them.

Edited September 7, 2012 by Horsetan