CIE green paint

[popeye]

I want to paint 2 coaches in CIE green. So i need to know is the dark green on the Murphy Models/Bachmann correct.

Or should it be lighter like the coach in The quiet man film?

The 2 pictures are here for you to see the difference.

 

Edited March 1, 2018 by popeye

[Glenderg]

Popeye, I resprayed a few some years ago, and found that if you used a deep green, mixed with some Royal Blue (Cross ink in my case), you'd achieve a blend that matches the Bachmann US coaches perfectly. 

The shade of green, when viewed with the HD copy, available to purchase on YouTube, is that same deep green, but with yellow added. 

I've screen capped as few balanced shots so you can make your own judgement, but even watching a short clip will have you scratching your head, but my I reckon the lighter shade is more appropriate. 

Richard.

 

 

 

[popeye]

Very good, thanks.

So do you think the Bachmann green is too dark?

I might try and mix my own and see.

[Glenderg]

I think it has too much blue in it to be honest, which results in a more "Racing Green" tone. There's definitely a hint of yellow in it, not much, but enough to differentiate from the Bachmann US coaches. Since putting a high gloss finish on coaches is frowned upon (seemingly) the lack of gloss plays in to this. The first coach doesn't appear to be varnished at all in that scene, has a much lighter tone as opposed to the more polished third classes behind. Bit of a minefield, really. R. 

[Garfield]

Just making sure you have what you're really looking for here, Popeye...

Do you mean CIE rather than GS&WR? The coaches above are in CIE green; GS&WR coaches carried a 'purple lake' livery. 

[popeye]

OK, so they were only green when they became CIE coaches.

[jhb171achill]

The GSWR painted coaches a very dakf browny /maroon with elaborate lining (details on request!).

GSR started similar, lighter after1933 , thereafter post-1933 maroon....

 

....

[BSGSV]

10 hours ago, Glenderg said:

I think it has too much blue in it to be honest, which results in a more "Racing Green" tone. There's definitely a hint of yellow in it, not much, but enough to differentiate from the Bachmann US coaches. Since putting a high gloss finish on coaches is frowned upon (seemingly) the lack of gloss plays in to this. The first coach doesn't appear to be varnished at all in that scene, has a much lighter tone as opposed to the more polished third classes behind. Bit of a minefield, really. R. 

I would agree that a hint more yellow is needed.

As regards the glossy finish, I've seen a freshly painted coach look lovely and glossy, and it is now, several years later, rather less so, due to being out in the weather. I've also seen paint from the same tin applied to another coach, and it looked (and looks) darker, compared to the one done some years previously.

Edited February 13, 2018 by BSGSV

[Noel]

This is really helpful info chaps, as I'm about to respray some Hornby Staniers and a C class in CIE green.

[jhb171achill]

The above is the standard CIE green used to replace the (LMS shade) maroon used by the GSR immediately prior to that. All the photos except the last show it up accurately; the last has too bluish a tint, probably as a result of deterioration of an old colour slide.

The actual green is as in my avatar, which is photo of a mounted "snail" with paint straight out of Inchicore. As can be seen in the first few photos above, like any newly applied gloss paint it dulled down a bit when in day to day use.

Summary of GSWR / GSR / CIE liveries:

Locos:

1870s - 1895 or so:  olive green, lined at various times in light green, red and black (the exact livery may be seen on preserved 90 at Dowpatrick; later cream and black lining and also at another time red and black lining. Numberplate black background. No crests or lettering.

By 1905 - black with red lining, red-backed numberplates, no crests or lettering.

1915 onwards - apart from buffer beam, unlined grey all over, numberplates, wheels, smokebox, chimney and motion included. Apart from buffer beam shaded number, no markings at all.

In the late 1940s, CIE started removing the numberplates and replacing them with light yellow painted numbers, and putting lined light green "flying snails" on most but not all tenders. No tank engines ever got snails. Suburban and main line passenger locos mostly got the lined green now seen on 800 in Cultra, though others remained grey. 

From about 1955, a few engines becoame unlined black with light yellow numerals. I don't recall any black tenders having snails - if they did, they were light green as usual.

There were a small handful,of exceptions, e.g. small non-standard numberplates on the ex-CBPR locos on the C & L - two, anyway, had red backgrounds, which was unique.

 

Carriages

From early times, a deep chocolatey maroon shade known as "crimson lake", as daft a name for a colour as the faintly ridiculous name for light green as "eau de nil" ("water of nothing")?!!

This was elaborately lined in red, black, gold and yellow. Around 1905-10, most main line stock had off-white upper panels, as seen on Downpatrick's No. 836.

After the GSR amalgamation in 1925, this continued simple with the change of coat-of-arms to the GSR one. Carriages from other companies were gradually repainted this way too, effectively into GSWR livery. After a few years, the GSR introduced a chocolate brown and cream livery with black lining, similar to the English Great Western Railway, for main line stock; other stock remaining in the plain crimson lake throughout. In 1933, a much lighter shade of maroon, same as the NCC and English LMS, was introduced and all stock of all grades gradually painted this way. Even the lining was the same as the LMS.

I know from jhb171senior(departed) that there was much to-ing and fro-ing between Inchicore and Derby in those days; doubtless someone saw a newly turned out coach over there in Blighty and thought it would do well here.

Some narrow gauge and secondary stock weren't lined.

CIE introduced the alive green in 1945 and by degrees everything was thus painted. The lighter green with simplified lining was applied to coaches first in 1955, by all accounts, but with the short-lived unpainted stock ending traffic at the same time. This lighter shade was ONLY applied to diesel locos and carriages, never to steam engines or buses, which retained the above green until the "black'n'tan" began to be used from 1962.

 

6 hours ago, Noel said:

This is really helpful info chaps, as I'm about to respray some Hornby Staniers and a C class in CIE green.

The C class would need to be the lighter green - see above. The Hornby Staniers would sort of approximate to laminates, so again the lighter green rather than the above would be correct. It would make the job of lining a lot easier too!

[popeye]

Thanks JHB, so it will be CIE green and eau de nil lining. 

[jhb171achill]

That'll look good, popeye. The green in the Quiet Man and on the Bachmann model is the same - or supposed to be. The coaches you are painting could be taken as Bredins as well as being laminate-ish. A Bredin would have worn both green liveries, whereas a laminate would only have had the lighter shade, not hugely unlike the heading on this website. If you assume it's a Bredin, you've the choice of the Bachmann / Quiet Man darker green with lining above and below windows, or - if you're modelling the late 50s / ear;y 60s, the shade seen on the RPSI's Dublin heritage set, or as applied (incorrectly!) to G611 at Downpatrick, or their TPO.

Good luck!

[johnminnitt]

Cherry paints (from Phoenix) do Dublin bus light and dark greens, I believe the first CIE coach green is supposed to be the same as they used on buses so are these colours any use?

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/cherry-bus-eire

The website doesn't show any sample so I've no idea what sort of greens they are.

[popeye]

Thanks, i have a tin of Humbrol gloss green No2 and i will put some yellow in it and that might be ok.

[popeye]

27 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That'll look good, popeye. The green in the Quiet Man and on the Bachmann model is the same - or supposed to be. The coaches you are painting could be taken as Bredins as well as being laminate-ish. A Bredin would have worn both green liveries, whereas a laminate would only have had the lighter shade, not hugely unlike the heading on this website. If you assume it's a Bredin, you've the choice of the Bachmann / Quiet Man darker green with lining above and below windows, or - if you're modelling the late 50s / ear;y 60s, the shade seen on the RPSI's Dublin heritage set, or as applied (incorrectly!) to G611 at Downpatrick, or their TPO.

Good luck!

Thanks JHB, the coaches will be the same as the coach at the start of this page.

Just waiting for the postman.

[jhb171achill]

Brilliant! I always thought that was a very attractive colour scheme, even on buses.

You can get the correct light green transfers now too. Prob best to paint the lining. 

As you'll see from the Quiet Man clips, the light green lining on the Bachmann coach is way too thick below window level.

 

[johnminnitt]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Brilliant! I always thought that was a very attractive colour scheme, even on buses.

You can get the correct light green transfers now too. Prob best to paint the lining. 

As you'll see from the Quiet Man clips, the light green lining on the Bachmann coach is way too thick below window level.

 

By the light green transfers do you mean the Railtec 'eau de nil snails and numbers'?

Has anyone used these Cherry paints, maybe could post a picture to see what the colours are like?

[murrayec]

Hi johnminnitt

As far as I know those paints are for the 80's/90's Dublin Bus and the DART, the dark green is not as dark as popeye requires, Humbrol 2 is getting there but I reckon not dark enough- yellow is only going to lighten it....

I'd start with Humbrol 3 'Brunswick Green' and maybe try a smidge of yellow or..... test away....

Eoin

Edited February 14, 2018 by murrayec

[jhb171achill]

53 minutes ago, johnminnitt said:

By the light green transfers do you mean the Railtec 'eau de nil snails and numbers'?

Has anyone used these Cherry paints, maybe could post a picture to see what the colours are like?

Without illustrations, be careful that the "Dublin bus light and dark green" doesn't refer to the 1984 Dart colours, which are shades of green totally unlike the ones you're looking for.

Haven't seen these paints myself, but white and yellow "snails" and lining are available as transfers, but not accurate for any coaches. Light green only for coaches or steam loco tenders.

10 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi johnminnitt

As far as I know those paints are for the 80's/90's Dublin Bus and the DART, the dark green is not as dark as popeye requires, Humbrol 2 is getting there but I reckon not dark enough- yellow is only going to lighten it....

I'd start with Humbrol 3 'Brunswick Green' and maybe try a smidge of yellow or..... test away....

Eoin

Ah!  Those 1980s colours are totally unsuitable for either version of 1950s. The 1980 ones are olive-type and a sort of dark lime green.

The Quiet Man pics are the ones to copy.

[johnminnitt]

Thanks for that gentlemen, I won't risk those paints then.

[murrayec]

Hi Guys

Here is a montage of colours being discussed;-

Unfortunately I don't have Humbrol 3, only have Airfix close to! and only Mr Poots Dublin Bus but are correct for the bus & DART....

So Brunswick is the closest and does need a bit of adjustment, besides mixing to get the correct shade one could also try a dark yellow, and even a light blue undercoat?

Eoin

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, murrayec said:

Hi johnminnitt

As far as I know those paints are for the 80's/90's Dublin Bus and the DART, the dark green is not as dark as popeye requires, Humbrol 2 is getting there but I reckon not dark enough- yellow is only going to lighten it....

I'd start with Humbrol 3 'Brunswick Green' and maybe try a smidge of yellow or..... test away....

Eoin

Ah!  Those 1980s colours are totally unsuitable for either version of 1950s. The 1980 ones are olive-type and a sort of dark lime green.

The Quiet Man pics are the ones to copy.

Maybe nos. 2 & 3 mixed? I would suggest trying 2 parts no. 2 with 1 part of the darker one. As can be seen, the bus ones are no more suitable than pink and yellow tartan!

[murrayec]

...and again, I knew I had it somewhere in me notes! Humbrol 78 matt 'Cockpit Green', and then use a gloss finish if you wants shinny- personally I would go for matt for a sun beaten weathered look;-

Eoin

2 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Maybe nos. 2 & 3 mixed? I would suggest trying 2 parts no. 2 with 1 part of the darker one. As can be seen, the bus ones are no more suitable than pink and yellow tartan!

Hi jhb

Yes, that's worth a try....

Eoin

[Andy Cundick]

To be honest i wouldn't worry about the correct shade as the moment they left the Paint shop the shade would start changing a combination of weather and light will start changing the colour.It was brought home to me looking at a rake of GW vans at Didcot,all in the same livery but varying between ex works dark grey and light grey.Andy.

[popeye]

I have done a quick test of Humbrol No2 & No3 on a coach.

It's a bit rough but from left to right

1 No2 + yellow 

2 No3 Brunswick

3 No2 + No3

4 No3 + yellow

5 No2 + No3 + yellow

 

[johnminnitt]

I'd vote for patch 4 for newish paint, patch 3 for more worn/faded I think.  Mind you I can't claim to have a good eye for colour.

[murrayec]

Hi popeye

4 looks OK to me on the red background.

Eoin

Edit;- Looking again- 3 i'm now liking but less Humbrol 2 in it??

Edited February 15, 2018 by murrayec

[popeye]

Yes, i think it will be 3 or 4.

I will look at it in the daylight and see what it is like.

I will mix some paint until it looks right.

[Noel]

Very interesting test patches. It would be interesting to see what the shades look like on a grey primer. 

[Noel]

Popeye inspired me to try a few vallejo mixes of various greens this morning.  Apologies for using a paint brush.  I was trying to see if I could get near the RPSI green as well as various CIE early and late 1950s shades.  Its a little subjective because in the flesh if I look at these samples in different light they can change appearance quite a bit.  Not quite got the RPSI green but getting closer.

[johnminnitt]

Could you say what colours/mixtures they are? The second from the left looks quite promising to me for a somewhat faded CIE green?

[Noel]

6 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

Could you say what colours/mixtures they are? The second from the left looks quite promising to me for a somewhat faded CIE green?

I've updated the test sample photo below to show the Vallejo paint numbers used, apologies without ratios, as I usually mix paint by eye rather than by measure. When I am happy with the shades I will have to thin the final mix because some of the paint is pre-thinned for direct air brush use (Model Air), but the two greens are 'Model Color' spec which needs to be thinned for airbrush use.  Vallejo have two product lines 'Model Air' and 'Model Color', both basically the same but 'Model Air' is pre-thinned.  'Model Color' can be better value as you effectively get double the paint due its thickness.

[jhb171achill]

On the maroon coach, the fourth one is closest to actual; I'm comparing with my avatar which is a good quality photo of actual CIE paint. The second one along, while a bit dark, has the right blue / yellow colour balance.

The very first one is similar to the later post-1955 CIE green.

The second from left tissue sample I see closest out of that lot - the others are too "blue".

[Noel]

11 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

On the maroon coach, the fourth one is closest to actual; I'm comparing with my avatar which is a good quality photo of actual CIE paint. The second one along, while a bit dark, has the right blue / yellow colour balance.

The very first one is similar to the later post-1955 CIE green.

The second from left tissue sample I see closest out of that lot - the others are too "blue".

Hi Jonathan. 'Eau de nil' stripes added to test sample below.  Is the one on the RHS anywhere near to the C class green post 55 or the coaches? Noel 

[jhb171achill]

Hi Noel

The stripes are all much too yellow. Check my avatar thingy on the left, as that's an actual CIE transfer.

In terms of post-1955 loco / coach green, the right hand colour above is closest but not exact.

[popeye]

9 hours ago, Noel said:

Hi Jonathan. 'Eau de nil' stripes added to test sample below.  Is the one on the RHS anywhere near to the C class green post 55 or the coaches? Noel 

I think a wee bit of yellow in the second one might work for the C Class.