Details gleaned from Irish Railway News periodicals in the 1950s and 60s

[Mol_PMB]

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

CIE ended trams on the Terenure and Dartry (14 & 15) routes. This now left only Dalkey as Dublin’s last tram route.

Whilst the coming of steam locomotives, and later electric traction, were expected to oust the horse, I find it fascinating that CIE's rail division was using horses in Dublin as late as 1968, so the humble Dobbin survived later than steam traction, and later than electric traction, working for CIE in Dublin. The Drumm trains, the Dublin city trams and the GNR trams had all gone well before that. Later, of course, DART and LUAS would come. And who knows, maybe one day some more knitting for the main lines.

 

18 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A combination of a Pioneer’s religious event and GAA specials brought huge traffic to the railway on 26^th June.

A similar scenario occurred in 1979 for the Pope's visit. It's amazing to read of the special arrangements made for that by CIE, which was at the time in the midst of a funding crisis and serious industrial relations problems. But for the crucial few days, everyone pulled together and somehow it all worked!

 

Please supply us some more of these wonderful notes from the past!

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Further to my previous post, a few more images of Turf wagons for those who might be interested. All these from Robin N Clements who was clearly interested in the subject! The interior view will be important for modelling purposes.

RNC_CMDR_32RA_Maynooth_06_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N … | Flickr

RNC_GSWR_8829_1915A_Kildare_03_April_1949 | [Photographer: R… | Flickr

RNC_GSWR_956_Leixlip_27_March_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N … | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_11RA_Leixlip_27_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_13RA_Leixlip_27_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr

 

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, Mol_PMB said:

Interesting that there were two stages to their rebuild. There are some photos of them in the 1947/8 condition in the IRRS archives, along with some open wagons converted with 'greedy boards' to carry a larger volume of turf. For example:

RNC_DSER_53D_Inchicore_21_Aug_1947 | [Photographer: Robin N … | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_14RA_Inchicore_21_Aug_1947 | [Photographer: Robin N… | Flickr

RNC_GSR_10627_Inchicore_26_Apr_1947 | [Photographer: Robin N… | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_32RA_Clonsilla_01_Aug_1948 (2) | [Photographer: Rob… | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_32RA_Clonsilla_01_Aug_1948 | [Photographer: Robin N… | Flickr

I recall reading somewhere that CIE tried Irish Tweed, as an attempt to support home industry, but that it wore badly compared to normal carriage upholstery materials. Not sure if this was that occasion.

It had several minor modifications, and was eventually purchased by BR and painted in normal carriage livery, which rather ruined the effect.

Some photos on Flickr by Robert Carroll:

 

 

 

 

MOST interesting! Seems it was substantially rebuilt, too - wonder when it was scrapped, or where it was used in Britain?

[Mol_PMB]

21 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Thus, we read in 1947 of the first Bullied opens, and a series of “new aluminium-sided box wagons” being built too. Note to MolPB!

So here’s a photo reproduced in Donal Murray’s ‘Great Southern Railways’ showing such a vehicle. The photo is undated. It’s not an LMA van (no corrugated ends) nor an H van (no triangulated underframe) so is probably a mid-1940s build as referred to in the quote above. 
The absence of diagonal strapping is notable, and I need to investigate this some more. 

I think the photo has been flipped horizontally when printed in the book, because the brake lever seems to point the wrong way. 

[airfixfan]

10 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

So here’s a photo reproduced in Donal Murray’s ‘Great Southern Railways’ showing such a vehicle. The photo is undated. It’s not an LMA van (no corrugated ends) nor an H van (no triangulated underframe) so is probably a mid-1940s build as referred to in the quote above. 
The absence of diagonal strapping is notable, and I need to investigate this some more. 

I think the photo has been flipped horizontally when printed in the book, because the brake lever seems to point the wrong way. 

Poor book anyway

[jhb171achill]

16 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

Further to my previous post, a few more images of Turf wagons for those who might be interested. All these from Robin N Clements who was clearly interested in the subject! The interior view will be important for modelling purposes.

RNC_CMDR_32RA_Maynooth_06_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N … | Flickr

RNC_GSWR_8829_1915A_Kildare_03_April_1949 | [Photographer: R… | Flickr

RNC_GSWR_956_Leixlip_27_March_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N … | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_11RA_Leixlip_27_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr

RNC_CMDR_13RA_Leixlip_27_Mar_1949 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr

 

Interested to see the "RA" suffix on Macroom stock.

"R" was the standard GSR suffix for ex-Macroom stock, like "M" for ex-MGWR, or "D" for ex-DSER etc etc etc.

"A" was used for departmental stock. But these things were traffic vehicles, not departmental, and were not renumbered in the "A" series anyway.

The "RA" seems to be applied to ex-Macroom stock only. Ex GSWR stock retains its ordinary number, and ex-MGWR vehicles have "M".

So what was this "RA" all about? Apart from that, it's the only example I am familiar with of GSR / CIE using a suffix of more than one letter.

 

As a separate issue, for information, the GSR and CIE used these suffixes:

 

A  Departmental stock - and in a new series of numbers, not original ones with suffix, as all the following.

B  Cork, Bandon & South Coast Rly

C  West Clare Rly

D  Dublin & South Eastern Rly

J  Timoleague & Courtmacsherry Rly

L  Cavan & Leitrim Rly

M  Midland Great Western Rly

N  Great Northern Rly (AEC / BUT Railcars only had a "C" in front as well; thus a GNR railcar that was, say, 607, became C607N)

P  Cork, Blackrock & Passage Rly

R  Cork & Macroom Direct Rly

S  Schull & Skibbereen Rly

T  Tralee & Dingle Rly

W  Waterford & Tramore Rly

 

Quiz question: what or when was the last vehicle in traffic bearing a suffix of this sort, apart from the "A" series? I saw a bogie wagon with "M" in the North Wall Yard about 1980. Dunno of anything since. There were also still a few GNR cement vans about at that time, though out of use, with "N" after the number.

Anyone?

[jhb171achill]

I should mention, having been prompted by a learned colleague, that the title of this post initially referred to the Irish Railway News, which ran from 1955 onwards. The last lengthy post I put up a few days ago contains information taken from old IRRS Journals plus some other material of my own; the Journals precede the IRN by some years, going back to 1947.

For those who are not members, the Jiurnal was, and remains, an invaluable source of information in relation to the day-to-day developments on Irish railways going back now for almost eighty years.

But the journals, published several times a year, also contain many articles of huge historical interest, and often these were written by some of our earlier expert enthusiasts who saw this stuff day to day - people like Harold Fayle and Bob Clements who witnessed and recorded in detail things that were going on almost from the start of the 20th century. Think of this - if the IRRS had a meeting in, say, 1948, and had a talk from a 70-year-old member, that man will have been born in 1878 and will have vivid memories of the railway from late teens / early twenties - from maybe 1895 on. His recollections and personal experiences will be reflected in his talk.

Some of us older members on here will be aware of things in, say, the 1960s, that would seem inconceivable to many modern enthusiasts, but we saw and experienced them. It is absolutely VITAL that all this is accurately recorded.

So, JOIN the IRRS; and no, I'm not on commission! The Society needs more and more new members, especially volunteers in the Dublin area, as the running and administration of the library and archive is increasingly falling on the shoulders of an ever-dwindling group of very much older volunteers.

Just to help you: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeaL4TagsmFalRJsel-JtQONLWp-tqAz4fW-dMTGSzvE7sXhg/viewform?pli=1

[Mayner]

13 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

So here’s a photo reproduced in Donal Murray’s ‘Great Southern Railways’ showing such a vehicle. The photo is undated. It’s not an LMA van (no corrugated ends) nor an H van (no triangulated underframe) so is probably a mid-1940s build as referred to in the quote above. 
The absence of diagonal strapping is notable, and I need to investigate this some more. 

I think the photo has been flipped horizontally when printed in the book, because the brake lever seems to point the wrong way. 

I suspect the wagon in the photo may be an ex-GSWR/GSR 15147-16812 series van being refurbished with a sheet aluminium skin over planking or possibly a 1946 17012-17211 being assembled. I suspect CIE used sheet aluminium cladding over softwood planking rather than a plywood substrate when refurbing ex-GSWR/GSR vans and assembling the 1946 vans, planking is just about visible in the iterior of the van in the photo. Its possible that the flat diagonal strapping was not fixed in place until the final stages of the assembly of the van, the diagonal strapping was actually fitted over the vertical flanges (flat part) of the T angle and would have had to be been botted in place after the planking was fitted to act effectively as a brace.

Simulilarily the holes for the end vents and covers fitted after the planking was complete and possibly roof fitted to have sufficient rigidity.

I checked out a grounded what I thought was a H Van in a field out side Kinnegad about 25 years ago and was surprised to find that the body was clad in sheet aluminium over a planked interior possibly a rebuild of an ex-GSWR or GSR van.

Alan O"Rourkes's Nov 2002 New Irish Lines on CIE Covered Goods Vans indicates that the GSR continued to build the GSWR design of van between 1938-1940    (16446-16470) Aug-Sep 1938,  (16491-16554), (16577-16598) (16612,16641) 1939 and (16642-16685),(16708-16777) (16779)(16783)(167786-16796)(16798-802)(16804-9) and 16811.  GSR was clearly gearing up for shortages of the Emergency in 1940 leading to  an increase in traffic & profitability.

The GSR also built some outside framed IRCH wagons during the 1930s similar to those used on the GNR possibly in response to increased Duties on steel during the Economic War, the GSR also appear to have built wooden framed Beet Wagons usring the Economic War.

Interestingly the final member of the 15147-16812 series vans had a Light Metal Alloy body with corrugated ends apparrently identical to the 17213-17221 LMA wagons of 1952, possibly a rebuild or replacement of an existing wagon as it had a 10' WB chassis with open W irons as opposed to the 9'6" WB underframe with solid W Irons used on the ex GSWR Vans. I first came across the grounded body of 16812 in use as a store on a construction site in Castleknock about 40 years ago and eventually built models of LMA wagons in N & OO and eventually produced a 3D printed version.

CIE may have purchased pre-formed aluminium alloy body and roof panels from a British manufacturer for these wagon in a similar manner to GN pruchasing pressed steel ends & parts for its Bagged Cement wagons and CIEs later used of pressed steel parts in its 1960s Pallet Wagons. 

[Mol_PMB]

26 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Quiz question: what or when was the last vehicle in traffic bearing a suffix of this sort, apart from the "A" series? I saw a bogie wagon with "M" in the North Wall Yard about 1980. Dunno of anything since. There were also still a few GNR cement vans about at that time, though out of use, with "N" after the number.

Anyone?

This is a good question! I'll have a look at my notes later; there may be a clue in the WTT wagon number listings.

The well-known pre-GSR survivors (things like the plough van and the presidential coach) were former GSWR vehicles so they didn't have a suffix.

You've probably right that it was one of the former MGWR bogie flats used for PW duties. Possibly some ballast wagons of various types? Unfitted vehicles lasted longer in PW usage.

5 minutes ago, Mayner said:

I suspect the wagon in the photo may be an ex-GSWR/GSR 15147-16812 series van being refurbished with a sheet aluminium skin over planking or possibly a 1946 17012-17211 being assembled. I suspect CIE used sheet aluminium cladding over softwood planking rather than a plywood substrate when refurbing ex-GSWR/GSR vans and assembling the 1946 vans, planking is just about visible in the iterior of the van in the photo. Its possible that the flat diagonal strapping was not fixed in place until the final stages of the assembly of the van, the diagonal strapping was actually fitted over the vertical flanges (flat part) of the T angle and would have had to be been botted in place after the planking was fitted to act effectively as a brace.

Simulilarily the holes for the end vents and covers fitted after the planking was complete and possibly roof fitted to have sufficient rigidity.

I checked out a grounded what I thought was a H Van in a field out side Kinnegad about 25 years ago and was surprised to find that the body was clad in sheet aluminium over a planked interior possibly a rebuild of an ex-GSWR or GSR van.

Alan O"Rourkes's Nov 2002 New Irish Lines on CIE Covered Goods Vans indicates that the GSR continued to build the GSWR design of van between 1938-1940    (16446-16470) Aug-Sep 1938,  (16491-16554), (16577-16598) (16612,16641) 1939 and (16642-16685),(16708-16777) (16779)(16783)(167786-16796)(16798-802)(16804-9) and 16811.  GSR was clearly gearing up for shortages of the Emergency in 1940 leading to  an increase in traffic & profitability.

The GSR also built some outside framed IRCH wagons during the 1930s similar to those used on the GNR possibly in response to increased Duties on steel during the Economic War, the GSR also appear to have built wooden framed Beet Wagons usring the Economic War.

Interestingly the final member of the 15147-16812 series vans had a Light Metal Alloy body with corrugated ends apparrently identical to the 17213-17221 LMA wagons of 1952, possibly a rebuild or replacement of an existing wagon as it had a 10' WB chassis with open W irons as opposed to the 9'6" WB underframe with solid W Irons used on the ex GSWR Vans. I first came across the grounded body of 16812 in use as a store on a construction site in Castleknock about 40 years ago and eventually built models of LMA wagons in N & OO and eventually produced a 3D printed version.

CIE may have purchased pre-formed aluminium alloy body and roof panels from a British manufacturer for these wagon in a similar manner to GN pruchasing pressed steel ends & parts for its Bagged Cement wagons and CIEs later used of pressed steel parts in its 1960s Pallet Wagons. 

Very interesting info, many thanks John. The 15147-16812 series included a variety of designs of various dimensions and forms of construction. I think there were at least 4 types in blocks within that number series and I'm presently trying to make sense of these. The info and reference for the 1938-1940 construction are therefore very helpful.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, Mayner said:

I suspect the wagon in the photo may be an ex-GSWR/GSR 15147-16812 series van being refurbished with a sheet aluminium skin over planking or possibly a 1946 17012-17211 being assembled. I suspect CIE used sheet aluminium cladding over softwood planking rather than a plywood substrate when refurbing ex-GSWR/GSR vans and assembling the 1946 vans, planking is just about visible in the iterior of the van in the photo. Its possible that the flat diagonal strapping was not fixed in place until the final stages of the assembly of the van, the diagonal strapping was actually fitted over the vertical flanges (flat part) of the T angle and would have had to be been botted in place after the planking was fitted to act effectively as a brace.

Simulilarily the holes for the end vents and covers fitted after the planking was complete and possibly roof fitted to have sufficient rigidity.

I checked out a grounded what I thought was a H Van in a field out side Kinnegad about 25 years ago and was surprised to find that the body was clad in sheet aluminium over a planked interior possibly a rebuild of an ex-GSWR or GSR van.

Alan O"Rourkes's Nov 2002 New Irish Lines on CIE Covered Goods Vans indicates that the GSR continued to build the GSWR design of van between 1938-1940    (16446-16470) Aug-Sep 1938,  (16491-16554), (16577-16598) (16612,16641) 1939 and (16642-16685),(16708-16777) (16779)(16783)(167786-16796)(16798-802)(16804-9) and 16811.  GSR was clearly gearing up for shortages of the Emergency in 1940 leading to  an increase in traffic & profitability.

The GSR also built some outside framed IRCH wagons during the 1930s similar to those used on the GNR possibly in response to increased Duties on steel during the Economic War, the GSR also appear to have built wooden framed Beet Wagons usring the Economic War.

Interestingly the final member of the 15147-16812 series vans had a Light Metal Alloy body with corrugated ends apparrently identical to the 17213-17221 LMA wagons of 1952, possibly a rebuild or replacement of an existing wagon as it had a 10' WB chassis with open W irons as opposed to the 9'6" WB underframe with solid W Irons used on the ex GSWR Vans. I first came across the grounded body of 16812 in use as a store on a construction site in Castleknock about 40 years ago and eventually built models of LMA wagons in N & OO and eventually produced a 3D printed version.

CIE may have purchased pre-formed aluminium alloy body and roof panels from a British manufacturer for these wagon in a similar manner to GN pruchasing pressed steel ends & parts for its Bagged Cement wagons and CIEs later used of pressed steel parts in its 1960s Pallet Wagons. 

Indeed. There is much photographic evidence of older vans, still with timber framing, having some sort of sheet metal panels applied over the original planking.

[Mol_PMB]

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

what or when was the last vehicle in traffic bearing a suffix of this sort, apart from the "A" series? I saw a bogie wagon with "M" in the North Wall Yard about 1980. Dunno of anything since. There were also still a few GNR cement vans about at that time, though out of use, with "N" after the number.

I think the answer is the MGWR bogie rail wagons 3401M to 3407M, which were introduced in the early 1920s and appear to have survived into the early 1980s.

The HMRS holds drawings of these:

https://hmrs.org.uk/drawings.html?company_cat=20496&product_list_limit=36

3405M was converted for use in the weedkilling train. How long did it last in that role? It was probably the last one of the batch in use into the early 1980s:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53448459987/

Seen here in 1984 after being replaced but before being scrapped:

The slight twist is that although this was definitely 3405M, it isn't carrying its suffix in the photos.

I'm not sure of the history of the other bogie flat in these photos, it also looks old though quite different.

 

There were some older and later survivors in the engineers' fleet but they were ex-GSWR so did not have a suffix. There were also some late-surviving old wagons in the A-suffixed series for non-revenue wagons including lowmacs (which had their own thread a few months ago), bogie well wagons and the 12-wheel heavy-duty wagon (which, despite appearances, was not the remains of the turf burner).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511515508

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508783799

 

So, in response to @jhb171achill's quiz question, are there any advances on 3405M into the early 1980s?

[Mol_PMB]

Here's another one of those old bogie flat wagons, also ex-MGWR I think, seen in 1971 but there's a similar one in the 1980s photo of the weedkiller train.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570896890/in/album-72177720315253667/

Note that the number quoted in the caption, 2618M, is the number of the ancient goods van adjacent, not the bogie flat.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570657363/in/album-72177720315253667

Another view of the big 12-wheeler, was this the GSR transformer truck or something else? (not the turf burner chassis, not the Bretland tracklayer chassis)

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570895655

And another view of the bogie well wagon, in revenue service:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570769984

I think most of the older ballast hoppers disappeared in the 1970s replaced by the CIE vac-braked ones introduced that decade - here's a GNR example and its matching plough van:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569593052

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570450071