Rare photographs

[Gavin Hamilton]

Hi all,

I'm interested to know if there are any photographs of an S class in action on the Ballymena, Cushendall and Red Bay line anywhere other than departing Ballymena in a Northerly Direction?

 I've never seen one but I know this doesn't mean none exist

Regards

Gavin

Edited May 26, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
spelling

[jhb171achill]

I’ll have a look in Senior’s photos. He was up there once as far as Rathkenny, I think. Part way up anyway. I’m pretty sure he didn’t photo it as he was in the cab but who knows!

[Gavin Hamilton]

Thanks, I guessed that at least one person might have, at least, seen such activity, but cameras were less common in those days - just need to invent a Tardis

[airfixfan]

Casserley took photos of this line in 1930 before it closed to passengers with coach 318 in the train.

[Gavin Hamilton]

Any idea where the pictures are held now?

Gavin

[airfixfan]

There is a person in this group who bought a lot of the Casserley collection recently. Possible that Casserley visited the branch itself as it closed to passengers in the same year.

Edited May 27, 2020 by airfixfan

[Gavin Hamilton]

Hopefully they might be able to assist

Gavin

[airfixfan]

See Irishswissernie

[jhb171achill]

Had a look in Senior’s stuff - nothing suitable for above.

[Irishswissernie]

16 hours ago, airfixfan said:

There is a person in this group who bought a lot of the Casserley collection recently. Possible that Casserley visited the branch itself as it closed to passengers in the same year.

I only purchased 2 lots covering Bundoran, Enniskillen and the SLNCR and also a Lot covering Waterford , Cork and the CBSC all early 1950's. I believe all the rest bar 1 lot covering the Belfast area ca1950 have been purchased by  a Syndicate with the intention off passing them on to the IRRS. 

It is possible that the Ballymena -Red Bay negs may not have been auctioned yet. There is a further Auction in the Autumn once we have got rid of the 'Lurgi' 

EDIT Checked the Negative catalogue HCC was at Ballymena in August 1930 but he didn't take any photos or apparently travel on the Red Bay line, he took one photo of a Parkmore train leaving Ballymena but a fair number on the Ballymena and Larne line. These are in the Autumn Auction.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Irishswissernie

[Gavin Hamilton]

The 'Lurgi' is holding up a load of things at the moment! Thanks, hopefully something does surface.

Gavin

[Galteemore]

15 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

I only purchased 2 lots covering Bundoran, Enniskillen and the SLNCR and also a Lot covering Waterford , Cork and the CBSC all early 1950's. I believe all the rest bar 1 lot covering the Belfast area ca1950 have been purchased by  a Syndicate with the intention off passing them on to the IRRS. 

It is possible that the Ballymena -Red Bay negs may not have been auctioned yet. There is a further Auction in the Autumn once we have got rid of the 'Lurgi' 

EDIT Checked the Negative catalogue HCC was at Ballymena in August 1930 but he didn't take any photos or apparently travel on the Red Bay line, he took one photo of a Parkmore train leaving Ballymena but a fair number on the Ballymena and Larne line. These are in the Autumn Auction.

Cheers Ernie. I for one am most grateful that the SLNC stuff is in your hands - given your generosity in sharing your treasure trove. 

[Gavin Hamilton]

42 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

I only purchased 2 lots covering Bundoran, Enniskillen and the SLNCR and also a Lot covering Waterford , Cork and the CBSC all early 1950's. I believe all the rest bar 1 lot covering the Belfast area ca1950 have been purchased by  a Syndicate with the intention off passing them on to the IRRS. 

It is possible that the Ballymena -Red Bay negs may not have been auctioned yet. There is a further Auction in the Autumn once we have got rid of the 'Lurgi'

Loads of stuff in your collection that interests me such as the Callander & Oban line - my Great Uncle (and possibly even earlier ancestors) was a driver on this line

Gavin

[Gavin Hamilton]

I checked the Mid Antrim Narrow Gauge book and I found 2 published pictures of the 0-6-0T's and 6 of the Cushandall 0-4-2T's north of Ballymena but none of an S class on that line, I've only seen one leaving Ballymena for Parkmore so this might be the only photograph seen. It looks like the BCRBR is a very rarely photographed line and having checked the closure dates against what could have been in service there must have been an S class over the whole length of the line, even hauling track removal trains when it closed

Gavin

[jhb171achill]

13 minutes ago, Gavin Hamilton said:

I checked the Mid Antrim Narrow Gauge book and I found 2 published pictures of the 0-6-0T's and 6 of the Cushandall 0-4-2T's north of Ballymena but none of an S class on that line, I've only seen one leaving Ballymena for Parkmore so this might be the only photograph seen. It looks like the BCRBR is a very rarely photographed line and having checked the closure dates against what could have been in service there must have been an S class over the whole length of the line, even hauling track removal trains when it closed

Gavin

The passenger trains ended in 1930, and even when it opened it had initially been goods-only. There was only a full service some 25-30 years.

When Senior travelled on it, I believe he said that it was lifted beyond Rathkenny or Cargan, and while I cannot remember i got the impression he was on one of the older, smaller locomotives. he said the track was, by that stage, very bad and very overgrown. Even between 1930 and closure, it seems that traffic was not regular, and certainly not frequent. The NCC seems to have operated it more or less as a siding from Ballymena, with little traffic other than occasional visits to a dairy up there somewhere to collect a wagon full of churns. Senior got the impression that what little remaining iron ore traffic there was had ended years earlier. 

Technically the line closed in 1937, but he was there a few years later at which time the dairy traffic was (a) probably unofficial, and (b) very rare.

[Galteemore]

I think it finally closed to Rathkenny in 1940 and the rails were probably lifted in short order given what was happening that year...which also meant it was a rather inauspicious time to go taking photos of a transport asset - even a redundant one.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Galteemore

[airfixfan]

1 hour ago, Gavin Hamilton said:

I checked the Mid Antrim Narrow Gauge book and I found 2 published pictures of the 0-6-0T's and 6 of the Cushandall 0-4-2T's north of Ballymena but none of an S class on that line, I've only seen one leaving Ballymena for Parkmore so this might be the only photograph seen. It looks like the BCRBR is a very rarely photographed line and having checked the closure dates against what could have been in service there must have been an S class over the whole length of the line, even hauling track removal trains when it closed

Gavin

Line was open for goods mainly creamery traffic from Rathkenny. till 1940. Closed to Parkmore/Retreat by 1937. Have come across yesterday another photo of a compound tank heading north out of Ballymena on a goods train. Also found photo of 43 in Match 1950 with no UT crest yet it had one by May 1950!

[Gavin Hamilton]

I'd certainly be interested to see the picture of the compound tank heading north out of Ballymena. I got  a nice picture of #43 still lettered NCC with the LMS crest on the cab side in the yard at Ballymoney, dated March 1950, from Charles Friel collection (E.M.Patterson photo)

Regards

Gavin

[jhb171achill]

That one seems to have never acquired UTA livery, unlike 44 (which looked very well with the UTA lining; latterly, the NCC painted narrow gauge engines plain black with no lining, but still an LMS crest...).

Very handsome engines......

[Gavin Hamilton]

7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That one seems to have never acquired UTA livery, unlike 44 (which looked very well with the UTA lining; latterly, the NCC painted narrow gauge engines plain black with no lining, but still an LMS crest...).

Very handsome engines......

Looks like it did get the UTA livery, the colour photograph of it (#43) in Ballymoney yard after closure shows the 'UTA symbol' (not sure of the term) on the Tank side - #42 was reliveried in Larne Shed after it had last run

Gavin

[jhb171achill]

So, 42 and 43 were repainted AFTER the line closed?

Interesting - shows they must have been having second thoughts. Senior surveyed the line in 1947 as they were wondering what it would cost to make it 5'3" gauge!

Patterson's book shows UTA livery on 41 & 44 (26.6.1950), 44 in NCC black (4.1.49). 

Edited June 2, 2020 by jhb171achill

[airfixfan]

43 got UT crests between March and May 1950 before closure. Have seen a photo of 42 on Ballyclare branch in March 1950 in neat NCC livery. Have also seen photos of 42 in last week of goods traffic still in NCC livery. Have also seen a photo of a compound tank in the 1930s with a different type of NCC lettering. By March 1950 41 and 44 had been repainted with slight differences in position of UT crest etc!

[Gavin Hamilton]

There is a very old joke this side of the Irish Sea that the painters usually arrived a couple of weeks before closure though I think reliverying a locomotive after it had made it's last run in service is going a bit far - maybe the copy of the final closure notice hadn't reached the painters in the case of #42

Gavin

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton
spelling

[airfixfan]

Did 42 get repainted in UT livery or is this just another urban myth?

[Gavin Hamilton]

15 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Did 42 get repainted in UT livery or is this just another urban myth?

There is a photograph in the Mike Morant collection, taken in Larne NG shed,  showing UT livery.

Gavin

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton

[Broithe]

1 hour ago, Gavin Hamilton said:

There is a very old joke this side of the Irish Sea that the painters usually arrived a couple of weeks before closure though I think reliverying a locomotive after it had made it's last run in service is going a bit far - maybe the copy of the final closure notice hadn't reached the painters in the case of #42

Gavin

I worked in 'British industry' from the mid-70s until 1993, when I realised that, after years of 'outsourcing', I actually had better facilities for my 'home office' jobs at home.

Any refurbishment activity, particularly in production areas, was always viewed, and mostly correctly, with deep suspicion.

Shortly afterwards 'they' would often take a 'difficult decision'*.

I'm sure we must have actually knocked down places with the paint still wet...

 

* More difficult for those that were actually affected, of course.

[Gavin Hamilton]

1 hour ago, Broithe said:

I worked in 'British industry' from the mid-70s until 1993, when I realised that, after years of 'outsourcing', I actually had better facilities for my 'home office' jobs at home.

Any refurbishment activity, particularly in production areas, was always viewed, and mostly correctly, with deep suspicion.

Shortly afterwards 'they' would often take a 'difficult decision'*.

I'm sure we must have actually knocked down places with the paint still wet...

 

* More difficult for those that were actually affected, of course.

Sounds similar to my 35 years experience in the IT industry, India would demand a major change be done 'NOW' and if we read the email trail in full they had been planning the event for the last 6 months but just hadn't got round to informing us - I was very relieved to discover that I had put enough into my pension fund so I could afford to retire - no payoff of course, the bigwigs just wanted to save money which would go on their bonus and the unions were not interested in 'constructive dismissal' cases either - don't expect a long service award if your ultimate employer is a corporation based in the USA - just glad i'm not dependent on them anymore

Gavin

[airfixfan]

5 hours ago, Gavin Hamilton said:

There is a photograph in the Mike Morant collection, taken in Larne NG shed,  showing UT livery.

Gavin

Thanks that's one I have not seen before. From what I can gather the last goods train ran when the Paper Mill closed in May 1950. Was kept in Larne with 113 of which photos are scarce after 1945?

[Andy Cundick]

6 hours ago, Broithe said:

I worked in 'British industry' from the mid-70s until 1993, when I realised that, after years of 'outsourcing', I actually had better facilities for my 'home office' jobs at home.

Any refurbishment activity, particularly in production areas, was always viewed, and mostly correctly, with deep suspicion.

Shortly afterwards 'they' would often take a 'difficult decision'*.

I'm sure we must have actually knocked down places with the paint still wet...

 

* More difficult for those that were actually affected, of course.

Classic case was Swindon  "A" shop roof was completely reglazed with new glass and ally framing (all 24 acres)of it two years before closure and a new sawmill was still being installed when the place closed.Andy

[Gavin Hamilton]

2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Thanks that's one I have not seen before. From what I can gather the last goods train ran when the Paper Mill closed in May 1950. Was kept in Larne with 113 of which photos are scarce after 1945?

Lacking in total confidence, it shared the shed with 110 (which was still 'red' in June 1945 according to an article by Desmond Coakham in Railway Bylines May2004, but the passengers didn't have the nerve to ask 113's crew to pull 110 out for photographs) 13th June 1945, given that 113 had a reputation for being 'slippery', 110 (unused for about 4 years) must have been even worse - the only 'action' shots of 110 are all as a shunter at Larne Harbour so I suspect it would have had issues climbing the bank out of Larne - or it had been tried and the general opinion was 'never again'

Gavin

Edited June 3, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton

[airfixfan]

Must track that issue down. There are photos of 113 on the goods train at Ballyclare in the summer of 1945 by Des Coakham. Who has his photo archive? According to Scott's book 110 was scrapped by mid 1946. Yet in JIC Boyd's book he visited the line in March 1950 and describes finding a compound tank being scrapped. Was this 110? Books also contain errors one shows 42 at Ballycastle in 1950 but it is actually 41! Another photographer has 42 on the Ballycastle line and at Larne both in May 1950!

[Gavin Hamilton]

3 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Must track that issue down. There are photos of 113 on the goods train at Ballyclare in the summer of 1945 by Des Coakham. Who has his photo archive? According to Scott's book 110 was scrapped by mid 1946. Yet in JIC Boyd's book he visited the line in March 1950 and describes finding a compound tank being scrapped. Was this 110? Books also contain errors one shows 42 at Ballycastle in 1950 but it is actually 41! Another photographer has 42 on the Ballycastle line and at Larne both in May 1950!

I had been wondering the same thing, without a photograph we are left assuming that the loco being scrapped was 110. Book captions can leave a lot to be desired :), there is one of 113 hauling a load of side tipping wagons from Larne Harbour towards the NG town station, one caption suggests 'unknown MR tipper wagons' for the bauxite traffic to BAC at Larne but if you dig a bit more the wagons were BAC stock and I assume whatever they contained was going somewhere to be tipped (waste). If I'm really at a dead end (probably soon if the madness continues) I might go through the wagon photos to attempt to work out a number range for the Hoppers

Regards

Gavin

[Gavin Hamilton]

Typical - answered one part of the question and only realised I'd missed the rest of it after I pressed transmit I have no idea who has the Coakham Archive but if I was to speculate I'd suggest who might know, and this is a wild guess - try Charles Friel - and if it isn't please accept my apologies.

Gavin

Edited June 4, 2020 by Gavin Hamilton

[airfixfan]

Boyd is very reliable and his book Saga on rail Ireland with many great photos and details is well worth tracking down. He was there and on the Ballycastle line in March 1950. Wonder who has his photo archive? Do you have the book on the Coey/Cowie brothers? It has photos by Jim Jarvis who visited the NCC lines including the BRCB in 1935 and 1939.

[Gavin Hamilton]

30 minutes ago, airfixfan said:

Boyd is very reliable and his book Saga on rail Ireland with many great photos and details is well worth tracking down. He was there and on the Ballycastle line in March 1950. Wonder who has his photo archive? Do you have the book on the Coey/Cowie brothers? It has photos by Jim Jarvis who visited the NCC lines including the BRCB in 1935 and 1939.

I've found Boyd a reliable source though there is at least one person (very active on FB - with a false name) who is very vocal with his criticism (I won't be glorifying this idiot, I was told his real name and the fact he is a prick)

No idea where his archive might be. I've never heard of the Coey/Cowie brothers though the book sounds interesting so finding a copy should be worth a look. Going off at a tangent - does anyone collect/possess NCC 'working timetables'? These could be interesting, especially for what might have run after the end of passenger sevices, timetables only get a very vague mention in the Patterson books.

Regards

Gavin